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US Politics Feedback Thread - Page 66

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Ghostcom
Profile Joined March 2010
Denmark4783 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-07-02 21:26:37
July 02 2017 21:04 GMT
#1301
Just for clarification: I take offence to anyone doing it. The Yale group press conference was a travesty.

EDIT: Allow me to share some zlefin love:
[image loading]
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
July 02 2017 21:35 GMT
#1302
On July 03 2017 06:04 Ghostcom wrote:
Just for clarification: I take offence to anyone doing it. The Yale group press conference was a travesty.

EDIT: Allow me to share some zlefin love:
[image loading]

I'm surprised that he didn't order you to not respond to his unsolicited pm.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24354 Posts
July 02 2017 21:51 GMT
#1303
On July 03 2017 06:04 Ghostcom wrote:
Just for clarification: I take offence to anyone doing it. The Yale group press conference was a travesty.

EDIT: Allow me to share some zlefin love:
[image loading]


Ah you got that Zlefin love too?

[image loading]
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Ghostcom
Profile Joined March 2010
Denmark4783 Posts
July 02 2017 21:52 GMT
#1304
I'm a little disappointed that he doesn't have a standardized letter.
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
July 02 2017 23:08 GMT
#1305
Guys I'm sure slefin has a sound, well-founded definition of "shit posting" and "shit poster" that you just aren't aware of. He's only trying to raise the discourse. His work Principia Posterica is forthcoming in which he rigorously formalizes arguments and sets forth criteria for ironman posting and strawman posting.
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
July 03 2017 16:09 GMT
#1306
is ironman posting like when you shitpost while running, swimmimg and biking?
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
brian
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States9643 Posts
July 03 2017 16:12 GMT
#1307
thems some gems in the PMs
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States5029 Posts
July 04 2017 01:11 GMT
#1308
I do admit that I've never seen someone juxtapose strawman arguments with "ironman" arguments, but I suppose that's because good faith or accurate arguing is supposed to be the default. Nonetheless it's a funny phrase, lol.
"But, as the conservative understands it, modification of the rules should always reflect, and never impose, a change in the activities and beliefs of those who are subject to them, and should never on any occasion be so great as to destroy the ensemble."
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-07-04 03:19:54
July 04 2017 03:16 GMT
#1309
I'm a big fan of the concept of Principia Posterica. Given that zlefin is writing it, I have no doubt that he'll endorse me to write the companion treatise, Summa Trollogiae.
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
July 06 2017 00:12 GMT
#1310
On July 06 2017 08:11 zlefin wrote:
some of it is that; it's a well documented psychological process.
and eyeroll at danglars making the usual false claim about trump having been a better general election candidate.

On July 06 2017 08:58 zlefin wrote:
bernie also lied the whole lenght of the primary; in fact, I daresay all the candidates for all the offices lied for the entire election cycle.
also, eyeroll at GH with his usual hatedom/misrepresentation on hillary.

For someone putatively sensitive to trolls and shitposters, he certainly wants to emulate methods and content level.

+ Show Spoiler +
On September 22 2016 08:16 zlefin wrote:
Oh, and back on the PTO stuff; I remembered and looked up what the old stuff was about; a trademark was issued that is facially invalid under the law, but was never challenged; some scum trademarked "tower defense" for games. *eyeroll*

and that is clearly a result of gross failure by low level staff to do their job.


High eyerolls per hour stats though.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
July 06 2017 01:44 GMT
#1311
oh look, more shitposts from the usual people; pushing their hillary hate again, how tiresome; why can't they just let it go and focus on current stuff, and also stop lying about things that have been disproven over and over again.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
July 06 2017 01:51 GMT
#1312
You really need to stop trying to troll by shitposting in this thread. It really, really gets repetitive to see a "danglars trolling - annoying!" every other day with literally no substance behind any one of these complaints yet constant claims that everyone else is lying. Stop it.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
Dangermousecatdog
Profile Joined December 2010
United Kingdom7084 Posts
July 06 2017 10:58 GMT
#1313
You need to hold a mirror to yourself legalord. Unelectable. Sad!
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18869 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-07-06 11:12:55
July 06 2017 11:12 GMT
#1314
I find zlefin quite entertaining and I hope he keeps at it
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States14208 Posts
July 06 2017 20:58 GMT
#1315
He fulfils the niche of the liberal that complains about everything that other people are doing beacuse only he should be allowed to do it. Takes a village after all and all that jazz.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-07-06 22:04:40
July 06 2017 22:00 GMT
#1316
On July 07 2017 05:58 Sermokala wrote:
He fulfils the niche of the liberal that complains about everything that other people are doing beacuse only he should be allowed to do it. Takes a village after all and all that jazz.

I don't think liberal is the right term given his technocratic bent. He thinks most things he disagrees with are just deviations from scientific analyses or incomplete, but possible, research. Consider a memorable exchange with IgnE (quote-train)
On October 16 2016 02:01 zlefin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 16 2016 01:29 IgnE wrote:
On October 16 2016 00:10 zlefin wrote:
I wonder if there's a decent way to do a math analysis of the how much ideological area a party can cover and still stick together, and how that compares to various possible coverage areas for a party.
My impression is that around 1.5 to 2 standard deviations (ona bell curve) seems about how far you can cover on a single axis. then the question becomes how orthogonal various issues are.


you do realize that this would be the modern day equivalent of counting how many angels can fit on the head of a pin right?

not really, I think one could establish some reasonable methodologies and do some actual analyses. There'd of course be reliability issues, as is common in social sciences, but one could make something potentially useful and well thought out.

On October 16 2016 03:09 IgnE wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 16 2016 02:59 zlefin wrote:
On October 16 2016 02:57 IgnE wrote:
On October 16 2016 02:53 zlefin wrote:
On October 16 2016 02:50 IgnE wrote:
On October 16 2016 02:01 zlefin wrote:
On October 16 2016 01:29 IgnE wrote:
On October 16 2016 00:10 zlefin wrote:
I wonder if there's a decent way to do a math analysis of the how much ideological area a party can cover and still stick together, and how that compares to various possible coverage areas for a party.
My impression is that around 1.5 to 2 standard deviations (ona bell curve) seems about how far you can cover on a single axis. then the question becomes how orthogonal various issues are.


you do realize that this would be the modern day equivalent of counting how many angels can fit on the head of a pin right?

not really, I think one could establish some reasonable methodologies and do some actual analyses. There'd of course be reliability issues, as is common in social sciences, but one could make something potentially useful and well thought out.



one can establish methodologies for most anything, the problem is its correlation to the Real. i have no doubt that someone could do such a study. but lets take a step back and ask ourselves what you are even talking about. making a bell curve with arbitrarily selected political gradients? measuring orthogonality with r values? coming up with some relation between these arbitrarily selected groupings wth data obtained via polling methods (in an era where polling itself is undergoing an existential crisis)?

it would have no predictive power whatsoever

it seems premature to assume it owuld have no predictive power before doing any research at all.
there's plenty of existing political gradients that are used for various purposes.
there clearly exists some sort of limit to how much ground a party can cover, if you have a better proposal or initial hypothesis to investigate, what is it?


on the contrary, there is no clear limit on "how much ground a party can cover." this past year's events, from berniebros to trump's candidacy, should have made that abundantly clear.

let's imagine this hypothetical study of yours had been conducted in 2012. do you honestly think it would have helped us understand trump?

I fail to see how berniebros or trump's candidacy disprove my assertion on limits, especially factoring in orthogonality; please explain.
and trump is moderately well understood already.


because orthogonality sheds no light on the hierarchy of those groupings, which itself is historically contingent. the more generalized the study the less predictive power it offers because it lacks sufficient granularity, while the more particular the study the less it tells you about the future because of its very particularity. you are always going to be looking backward because you are inherently limited by the arbitrary selection of presently relevant polling questions.

so is that a yes? you do think that if this hypothetical study of yours was conducted in 2012 it would have been able to shed some light on the shifts in the political parties in 2016?

i dont really understand what you mean saying trump is relatively well understood already. are you saying he's understood presently or that he has been understood since the primaries and that it's puzzling why very few commentators took him seriously 14 months ago?

edit: if you contend that a properly conducted hypothetical survey conducted in 2012 would have predicted the rise of trump i would assert that such a properly conducted study was impossible. my point here is that the bounds of the imaginary in 2012 positively precluded such a study from ever taking place, or at the least, if it had taken place, it would have been ignored by most everyone as fantastic because of the fact that it existed outside the common imaginary, or the "realm of possibility".

Or this one:
On June 15 2017 06:37 zlefin wrote:
I think the solutions to social security are known already. I'm pretty sure there's been plenty of panels and commissions which have figured out what needs to be done. The problem is it's politically painful to do so, so neither side wants to do it. and in a very real sense, the voters in aggregate do not want to do it either; and will punish anyone who tries.

The only true fix is to fix the fundamental problems that prevent the government from doing unpopular but necessary things.
but that's very hard to do.

other than that; I dunno, maybe find a politically palatable lie that both sides can agree on?

He also represents himself as the final arbiter on when arguments have finished and he's won. On this page he laments how often things come up that are "lying about things that have been disproven over and over again" or in main thread "people keep trying to bring up points that have been disproven/countered dozens of times" or "people invoke fallacies left and right, get proven wrong, then just come back later makign the same points that were already disproven." I don't know if claiming all counterarguments are unsound and have been disproven is a niche, but zlefin certainly fills that nicely.
Unsound
Troll
I'm pretty sure

He probably takes the cake for biggest advocate of pure reason and (pseudo-)scientific study as the solution for all kinds of political disagreements.

EDIT: I want to add that I treasure his PM's greatly and would be saddened if they ever stopped. The three this year haven't failed to include shitposter/shitposting in the body.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
brian
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States9643 Posts
July 06 2017 22:32 GMT
#1317
lol i can't think of two posters i'd rather not have to read talking to each other

i appreciate the work that went into that post.
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
July 07 2017 00:36 GMT
#1318
things would work better if the feature to ignore individual posters was available to all politics threads; instead of only being for tl+ users.
then the failure to moderate properly would be far less of an issue, as the poor posters could more easily be ignored.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
July 07 2017 00:52 GMT
#1319
Uhh I don't that's a feature, period. I use TL+ for the filter button and adblock. Even so, I wouldn't ignore a single poster.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24354 Posts
July 07 2017 04:59 GMT
#1320
On July 07 2017 09:52 Danglars wrote:
Uhh I don't that's a feature, period. I use TL+ for the filter button and adblock. Even so, I wouldn't ignore a single poster.


Sure is easier than actually coming up with compelling counterarguments. I mean I'm pretty sure no one has ever even addressed the Honduras thing, let alone refuted it. Just calling people shitposters doesn't quite do it because then you're exposed to the realization that most everyone thinks you're a shitposter so a block would help close that circle of self-contentment.

It's basically the SOP for twitter liberals/conservatives.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
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