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US Politics Feedback Thread - Page 35

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xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-12-01 00:23:08
December 01 2016 00:22 GMT
#681
EDIT: Nevermind.
JimmyJRaynor
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada16666 Posts
December 02 2016 16:32 GMT
#682
On December 01 2016 04:29 LegalLord wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 01 2016 03:27 BigFan wrote:
On November 30 2016 14:21 LegalLord wrote:
Sometimes one side being unwilling to let it go is more than enough if they end up being particularly persistent about it.

yes and it's easy to just ignore the post lol. If they keep being persistent and passive-aggressive, I'm sure we'll eventually see the post and mod as necessary.

I, more than almost anyone else, know how to skim that edge between being an annoying jerk and being banworthy. If only it were quite that easy to differentiate what's kind of controversial from what's banworthy.

i find that when you've provided logical reasoning combined with facts the person you disagree with begins calling you "annoying".
these people are what i like to call "wrong".
Ray Kassar To David Crane : "you're no more important to Atari than the factory workers assembling the cartridges"
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-12-04 18:03:19
December 04 2016 17:43 GMT
#683
Is RiK trolling?
I can't tell; I mean, my impression is he may genuinely believe what he's saying, despite how thoroughly the things have been addressed;
this one in particular:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/general/383301-us-politics-mega-thread?page=6363#127242

how does one discuss with something so far from, well, reality, and when the points have already been addressed in far more detail in numerous places which he seems to be completely ignoring.


on another note; there really needs to be a better system in place to deal with problem posters who have protected status. cuz there's been issues for some time now with such people causing problem that do not get addressed, resulting in a decrease in overall thread quality that is very palpable, and very hurtful since the problem people seem immune to action.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
December 04 2016 18:26 GMT
#684
So what was wrong with RiK's post?
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
December 04 2016 18:37 GMT
#685
I'm not sure why the mods choose to action it.

to me; the problem was from his chain of posts, he repeatedly asserted things which were factually untrue, and which had been addressed/dealt with extensively in the thread (so he should've known about, from here, or from general knowledge elsewhere, where they had also been covered). Now there might be things related to what he said which could be reasonably considered true, but the things he actually said, a bunch of them were simply false. nor did he have much explanation to justify a basis for his false claims which would be addressed.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
December 04 2016 18:59 GMT
#686
In all honesty I'm not sure you're really the right person to be making that kind of criticism of someone.

Frankly, while I can see some of why people might object to RisK posts like that, I also see a notable lack of uniformity in how much unjustified assertion people get to make based on how popular their opinion is.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
December 04 2016 19:14 GMT
#687
There may well be people who would be perceived by the thread as better for making such a judgment;
whether they actually would be better is another story.
I wonder if there were a thread vote/discussion to decide who the best people are for making such claims who would be chosen.


The issue is not unjustified assertion per se, but unjustified assertions that are demonstrably false and have been demonstrated so in thread at length and in detail; also there's a difference between assertion of fact and assertion of opinion.

There are some issues with opinion popularity vs uniformity of action. and if you have a proposed fix for that, I'd be happy to look at it.
part of it is of course because some things are in fact wrong; so separating out the portion that may arise out of bias, and that which is entirely justified, will be quite difficult.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
December 05 2016 04:39 GMT
#688
On December 05 2016 03:26 xDaunt wrote:
So what was wrong with RiK's post?

I gather it was borderline but he has a poor moderation history.

I does pair with the the original finding: being snide and taking a sneering position is sometimes allowed to pass, but also being wrong in the opinion of the observing mod is enough to put you over into being actioned. I won't be the one to hunt through to find the ten borderline cases or demolish my already poor reporting stats to highlight all the questionables to the moderation team. I won't comment at length on this issue for that reason.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
tofucake
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Hyrule19027 Posts
December 05 2016 12:25 GMT
#689
In US Pol thread, spouting false statements as "facts" is against the thread rules and is actionable.
Liquipediaasante sana squash banana
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-12-05 15:07:08
December 05 2016 14:33 GMT
#690
On December 05 2016 21:25 tofucake wrote:
In US Pol thread, spouting false statements as "facts" is against the thread rules and is actionable.

On December 04 2016 23:58 RealityIsKing wrote:
Nope, the entire Trump hate is purely conjured up because people's ideology that they want Hillary in because she is a women and started calling Trump racists when he said he doesn't want illegal immigrants which is xenophobic at best.

Then people just utilizes confusing languages with emotional fallacies that have no facts attached to them to paint Trump in a certain tone resulting in naive people buying the narratives.

Let's face it, the identify politics have to stop from the leftists in order for people to take them seriously again because at this point, the journalists at CNN, MSNBC, etc. should be ashamed of themselves as their biases were off the chart during the campaign.

User was temp banned for this post.

If you're referring to this post, like I was, you're way off base. It doesn't break new ground with allegations other posters have been making for months. It uses the same common political statements others do without difficulty ("purely conjured up"). If you're talking about a sampling of four of his posts I might see your point. But the actual banned-for one is a perfect example of a wrong moderation direction.

+ Show Spoiler +

On November 29 2016 01:28 Nyxisto wrote:
There is "read between the lines" and then there is "invent a completely new text because the actual text is actually just indefensible drivel"

NPR is definitely and objectively a better source of information than infowars or breitbart which are essentially the American version of the Pravda, and it's also pretty far ahead of CNN.

What you're selling as charity is more or less a desperate attempt to counter the problem of "liberals having all the facts" as even Newt Grinrich confirmed. The whole Trump campaign relied on undermining simple, plain truths by turning reality upside down, and now they have to continue doing it.

Conservatives would argue at least three of his points are counterfactual, but of course he shouldn't be banned, since moderators aren't unbiased judges of facts in contention. But if the future direction is that path of what liberals say is objective lies, ban away both!


I defy you to find spouting false statements as facts in the thread guidelines. It's not there because politics blurs the lines (particularly if you call cited post on facts. Attitude and posting style yes, factually fine/disputable. The very finding on the grounds of facts would be proof positive it's a meaningless rule unable to be enforced impartially). Showing not telling & listening is routinely abused, but if you're upping that standard strictly, it could be impartially applied. Again, my report button would be forfeit calling to attention to post tiptoeing the line from a left/European left perspective, so I have no recourse for proving over time to new mods the slant.

EDIT2: Saw post below. Ok.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
tofucake
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Hyrule19027 Posts
December 05 2016 14:37 GMT
#691
I'm not, I'm just replying to the comment about posts being actioned for being wrong.
Liquipediaasante sana squash banana
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
December 05 2016 15:58 GMT
#692
In similar news, why wasn't this post warned?

On December 05 2016 07:42 Slaughter wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 05 2016 07:31 xDaunt wrote:
On December 05 2016 07:25 Slaughter wrote:
Trump loses the popular vote by over 3 million and suddenly the Dems are in a crisis? Tiny shift and Clinton is president elect and as a some posters in this thread like to do, a lot of that could be seen as flaws of Clinton herself and her campaign strategy (or at least perceived flaws).

Trump won despite facing tremendous headwinds due to a relentless negative campaign against him. Anyone else pushing substantially the same platform would have blown the opposition out. Of course, we are going to have to wait 4 years to really see the fall out, but democrats shouldn't downplay how precarious their political position is.


Basically you are saying Trump was a very shitty candidate and should have lost. Gotcha.


This is very clearly a disingenuous shitpost that is going to do nothing but bait a bad response from me. I thought that we had an understanding that I would put my vigilante-style responses aside if this type of stuff was actioned. Am I mistaken?
tofucake
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Hyrule19027 Posts
December 05 2016 17:50 GMT
#693
Report that stuff. I can't spend all of my time moderating that thread, and I have other responsibilities too.
Liquipediaasante sana squash banana
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
December 05 2016 17:52 GMT
#694
On December 06 2016 02:50 tofucake wrote:
Report that stuff. I can't spend all of my time moderating that thread, and I have other responsibilities too.

I did.
tofucake
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Hyrule19027 Posts
December 05 2016 17:56 GMT
#695
It would appear some mods are being more lenient than others.
Liquipediaasante sana squash banana
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
December 05 2016 18:03 GMT
#696
On December 06 2016 02:56 tofucake wrote:
It would appear some mods are being more lenient than others.

Thank you for the follow up.
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-12-06 05:06:05
December 06 2016 05:02 GMT
#697
On December 06 2016 02:56 tofucake wrote:
It would appear some mods are being more lenient than others.

So what we have is luck of the draw on getting a lenient mod to respond to the report. So somebody like RiK gets actioned, but his leftist twin gets passed. At least we have tacit admission that the double standard exists, though it isn't applied universally unfairly (obviously).

((Actually the real thrust is: Will the un-offending mod come into this website feedback thread and give his/her feedback to the clearly uncertain positions posters are put in reporting posts that should be actioned but are shown leniency, or fall in the pattern of leniency shown and get actioned (Slaughter & RiK being the most recent examples). Shitposters "getting away with it" encourages shitposting. Unactioned reported shitposts discourages reporting. Unequal application of thread rules undermines the rules.))
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
BigFan
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
TLADT24920 Posts
December 06 2016 05:08 GMT
#698
I think it's pretty easy to look at it that way but the reality is that modding that thread is quite difficult. Not only that, being consistent with modding when you have various mods checking reports etc... isn't something that is easy to do.
Former BW EiC"Watch Bakemonogatari or I will kill you." -Toad, April 18th, 2017
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
December 06 2016 05:29 GMT
#699
The moderation has been much improved since tofu took over. We could quibble over a few of the actions and nonactions, but overall, the thread is in a decent place. It helps that many of the toxic posters are on sabbatical following the election.
BigFan
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
TLADT24920 Posts
December 06 2016 05:37 GMT
#700
yes, tofucake has been doing a great job. I'm mostly saying that it's difficult to achieve consistency when it's not only one moderator modding the thread.
Former BW EiC"Watch Bakemonogatari or I will kill you." -Toad, April 18th, 2017
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