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He was responding to "nobody should hate anyone" with "really? Not even Nazis?", he wasn't calling anyone here a Nazi. I did something similar one time and LL got mad, so I guess it might be a good rule to just never bring up Nazis, even if it's purely as a rhetorical stand-in for "group I know none of us agree with," because people tend to misunderstand and think you're equating them with Nazis.
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Replace Nazis with puppy killers. Or people who talk in theater.
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On April 14 2018 06:39 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2018 06:29 zlefin wrote:On April 14 2018 06:28 Gorsameth wrote:On April 14 2018 06:20 Plansix wrote:On April 14 2018 06:16 Gorsameth wrote:
Do we have to have this conversation in website feedback?
Do we need to have it at all?
Where else do we have it? Some conservative posters they are being abused by the thread, we should at least discuss it. It started as that and it could be a good discussion. Now were back to trying to call others nazi's sympathizers and that's never going to go anywhere productive. who's trying to do that? that's not what I said at all, quite clearly, so not sure how you got that if it was from what I said. Really? Right, you always take a conversation from "lets not hate on eachother" to "Gee don't you hate nazi's, everyone hates nazi's". Come on, you've discussed on the internet before. You know better then this.
go reread sermo's EXACT statement. that's what I was responding to; and there are people who believe that, that you shouldn't hate anyone, even nazis, even hitler. I was just verifying he was one of those by referencing the nazis.
there's also a huge difference between saying someone doesn't hate nazis (because they refuse to hate ANYONE) and calling/implying they're a nazi sympathizer. which I did not do, and you did not point to.
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On April 14 2018 05:58 Plansix wrote:
We are all guilty of some high level bullshit. I can shit post with the best of them. But do you have specific examples of you being attacked? Or is this more about over generalization about conservatives?
Do I need examples of being personally attacked in order to comment about the general tone the thread takes twords my identity? My comment was that people hate Trump. Not just despise him for his comments and condemn him for allegations against him but specifically hate him and the people that support him. That spills over to any conservative that tangentially have to be near him for what they believe in. Trump isn't important enough to me to change who I am. Hes not important enough to take away my agency for having morals.
Conservatives and republicans are suppose to be the shitty people. For legitimacy the nation has to offer representation to the groups that others disagree with. I understand the irony of what I'm saying is taken directly from women and minorities rhetoric but if what they say has legitimacy it has to work the other way too.
I've accepted the thread and the mods don't want me or xdaunt or danglers in the thread. Maybe that'll change after november who knows.
Edit: for the sake of others no I don't think people should hate nazis. Hating them just plays into their hand and makes them stronger.
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On April 14 2018 06:49 zlefin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2018 06:39 Gorsameth wrote:On April 14 2018 06:29 zlefin wrote:On April 14 2018 06:28 Gorsameth wrote:On April 14 2018 06:20 Plansix wrote:On April 14 2018 06:16 Gorsameth wrote:
Do we have to have this conversation in website feedback?
Do we need to have it at all?
Where else do we have it? Some conservative posters they are being abused by the thread, we should at least discuss it. It started as that and it could be a good discussion. Now were back to trying to call others nazi's sympathizers and that's never going to go anywhere productive. who's trying to do that? that's not what I said at all, quite clearly, so not sure how you got that if it was from what I said. Really? Right, you always take a conversation from "lets not hate on eachother" to "Gee don't you hate nazi's, everyone hates nazi's". Come on, you've discussed on the internet before. You know better then this. go reread sermo's EXACT statement. that's what I was responding to; and there are people who believe that, that you shouldn't hate anyone, even nazis, even hitler. I was just verifying he was one of those by referencing the nazis. there's also a huge difference between saying someone doesn't hate nazis (because they refuse to hate ANYONE) and calling/implying they're a nazi sympathizer. which I did not do, and you did not point to. As I said, you know your way around a debate. You know how discussions go once you bring nazi's into it.
But sure, if you want to play dumb go for it.
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On April 14 2018 06:56 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2018 05:58 Plansix wrote:
We are all guilty of some high level bullshit. I can shit post with the best of them. But do you have specific examples of you being attacked? Or is this more about over generalization about conservatives? Do I need examples of being personally attacked in order to comment about the general tone the thread takes twords my identity? My comment was that people hate Trump. Not just despise him for his comments and condemn him for allegations against him but specifically hate him and the people that support him. That spills over to any conservative that tangentially have to be near him for what they believe in. Trump isn't important enough to me to change who I am. Hes not important enough to take away my agency for having morals. Conservatives and republicans are suppose to be the shitty people. For legitimacy the nation has to offer representation to the groups that others disagree with. I understand the irony of what I'm saying is taken directly from women and minorities rhetoric but if what they say has legitimacy it has to work the other way too. I've accepted the thread and the mods don't want me or xdaunt or danglers in the thread. Maybe that'll change after november who knows. Edit: for the sake of others no I don't think people should hate nazis. Hating them just plays into their hand and makes them stronger.
I don’t really think the mods want that. And I don’t think your claim of feeling like the thread is attacking you is false. But there needs to be a productive way for people to talk about the bad actors in both conservative and liberal groups.
I once suggested that broad, sweeping statements like “the left” and “all conservatives” should be clammed down on or bannable if people can’t stop using them. Folks should be required to be specific with their complains. And if they can’t be, they need to go back and think about those complaints until they can be specific. We would be better off.
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On April 14 2018 07:07 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2018 06:49 zlefin wrote:On April 14 2018 06:39 Gorsameth wrote:On April 14 2018 06:29 zlefin wrote:On April 14 2018 06:28 Gorsameth wrote:On April 14 2018 06:20 Plansix wrote:On April 14 2018 06:16 Gorsameth wrote:
Do we have to have this conversation in website feedback?
Do we need to have it at all?
Where else do we have it? Some conservative posters they are being abused by the thread, we should at least discuss it. It started as that and it could be a good discussion. Now were back to trying to call others nazi's sympathizers and that's never going to go anywhere productive. who's trying to do that? that's not what I said at all, quite clearly, so not sure how you got that if it was from what I said. Really? Right, you always take a conversation from "lets not hate on eachother" to "Gee don't you hate nazi's, everyone hates nazi's". Come on, you've discussed on the internet before. You know better then this. go reread sermo's EXACT statement. that's what I was responding to; and there are people who believe that, that you shouldn't hate anyone, even nazis, even hitler. I was just verifying he was one of those by referencing the nazis. there's also a huge difference between saying someone doesn't hate nazis (because they refuse to hate ANYONE) and calling/implying they're a nazi sympathizer. which I did not do, and you did not point to. As I said, you know your way around a debate. You know how discussions go once you bring nazi's into it. But sure, if you want to play dumb go for it.
ok, this is you behaving poorly; that's on you, not me. I raised an extremely valid and reasonable point, and you choose to make it about something else other than what I actually said and did and responded to. you strawmanned my position; shame on you.
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On April 14 2018 07:19 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2018 06:56 Sermokala wrote:On April 14 2018 05:58 Plansix wrote:
We are all guilty of some high level bullshit. I can shit post with the best of them. But do you have specific examples of you being attacked? Or is this more about over generalization about conservatives? Do I need examples of being personally attacked in order to comment about the general tone the thread takes twords my identity? My comment was that people hate Trump. Not just despise him for his comments and condemn him for allegations against him but specifically hate him and the people that support him. That spills over to any conservative that tangentially have to be near him for what they believe in. Trump isn't important enough to me to change who I am. Hes not important enough to take away my agency for having morals. Conservatives and republicans are suppose to be the shitty people. For legitimacy the nation has to offer representation to the groups that others disagree with. I understand the irony of what I'm saying is taken directly from women and minorities rhetoric but if what they say has legitimacy it has to work the other way too. I've accepted the thread and the mods don't want me or xdaunt or danglers in the thread. Maybe that'll change after november who knows. Edit: for the sake of others no I don't think people should hate nazis. Hating them just plays into their hand and makes them stronger. I don’t really think the mods want that. And I don’t think your claim of feeling like the thread is attacking you is false. But there needs to be a productive way for people to talk about the bad actors in both conservative and liberal groups. I once suggested that broad, sweeping statements like “the left” and “all conservatives” should be clammed down on or bannable if people can’t stop using them. Folks should be required to be specific with their complains. And if they can’t be, they need to go back and think about those complaints until they can be specific. We would be better off.
How do you feel regarding Zlefin's latest post? That is a person who seems wholly incapable of arguing the spirit of what was written over semantics, to the point arguing something as straight forward as "we shouldn't hate people" to "what about nazis?".
I don't see how that's arguing in good faith.
On April 14 2018 06:43 ChristianS wrote:
He was responding to "nobody should hate anyone" with "really? Not even Nazis?", he wasn't calling anyone here a Nazi. I did something similar one time and LL got mad, so I guess it might be a good rule to just never bring up Nazis, even if it's purely as a rhetorical stand-in for "group I know none of us agree with," because people tend to misunderstand and think you're equating them with Nazis.
Putting aside universally disliked people and groups, what exactly was added to the conversation with what Zlefin wrote? Seems like a petty gotcha more then anything.
Actually for what it's worth, I don't think hating groups as a whole is a good idea either, whether it's nazis, communists, mongol hordes etc.
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I do not believe the argument that Zlefin is putting forth is productive or helpful. On the subject, I don’t hate Nazis. I’ll get in a fist fight with one before I debate them, but I don’t hate them.
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On April 14 2018 06:56 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2018 05:58 Plansix wrote:
We are all guilty of some high level bullshit. I can shit post with the best of them. But do you have specific examples of you being attacked? Or is this more about over generalization about conservatives? Do I need examples of being personally attacked in order to comment about the general tone the thread takes twords my identity? My comment was that people hate Trump. Not just despise him for his comments and condemn him for allegations against him but specifically hate him and the people that support him. That spills over to any conservative that tangentially have to be near him for what they believe in. Trump isn't important enough to me to change who I am. Hes not important enough to take away my agency for having morals.
You seem like a pretty level headed person, so I hope people take that into consideration when speaking to you directly. There are many times though where posters will want to talk in a politics thread about the direction of the Republican party, or about the values of modern day conservatism. In that area, you're stuck being represented by someone who appears to be morally reprehensible. You can't avoid being judged for the company you keep.
I don't think there is any comforting solution to the hate that troubles you. The political climate is divisive, people are furious, and there is an antagonistic bully in the news every day fanning the flames. The best you can probably do is bring the discussion to a more personal level where possible. I don't think anyone here is going to hate on you in a one on one conversation.
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On April 14 2018 08:45 Tachion wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2018 06:56 Sermokala wrote:On April 14 2018 05:58 Plansix wrote:
We are all guilty of some high level bullshit. I can shit post with the best of them. But do you have specific examples of you being attacked? Or is this more about over generalization about conservatives? Do I need examples of being personally attacked in order to comment about the general tone the thread takes twords my identity? My comment was that people hate Trump. Not just despise him for his comments and condemn him for allegations against him but specifically hate him and the people that support him. That spills over to any conservative that tangentially have to be near him for what they believe in. Trump isn't important enough to me to change who I am. Hes not important enough to take away my agency for having morals. You seem like a pretty level headed person, so I hope people take that into consideration when speaking to you directly. There are many times though where posters will want to talk in a politics thread about the direction of the Republican party, or about the values of modern day conservatism. In that area, you're stuck being represented by someone who appears to be morally reprehensible. You can't avoid being judged for the company you keep. I don't think there is any comforting solution to the hate that troubles you. The political climate is divisive, people are furious, and there is an antagonistic bully in the news every day fanning the flames. The best you can probably do is bring the discussion to a more personal level where possible. I don't think anyone here is going to hate on you in a one on one conversation.
This is the worst part of identity politics. He is not responsible for all people that label themselves as conservative. Just like I am not responsible for all the past sins of the party that I vote for.
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On April 14 2018 08:49 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2018 08:45 Tachion wrote:On April 14 2018 06:56 Sermokala wrote:On April 14 2018 05:58 Plansix wrote:
We are all guilty of some high level bullshit. I can shit post with the best of them. But do you have specific examples of you being attacked? Or is this more about over generalization about conservatives? Do I need examples of being personally attacked in order to comment about the general tone the thread takes twords my identity? My comment was that people hate Trump. Not just despise him for his comments and condemn him for allegations against him but specifically hate him and the people that support him. That spills over to any conservative that tangentially have to be near him for what they believe in. Trump isn't important enough to me to change who I am. Hes not important enough to take away my agency for having morals. You seem like a pretty level headed person, so I hope people take that into consideration when speaking to you directly. There are many times though where posters will want to talk in a politics thread about the direction of the Republican party, or about the values of modern day conservatism. In that area, you're stuck being represented by someone who appears to be morally reprehensible. You can't avoid being judged for the company you keep. I don't think there is any comforting solution to the hate that troubles you. The political climate is divisive, people are furious, and there is an antagonistic bully in the news every day fanning the flames. The best you can probably do is bring the discussion to a more personal level where possible. I don't think anyone here is going to hate on you in a one on one conversation. This is the worst part of identity politics. He is not responsible for all people that label themselves as conservative. Just like I am not responsible for all the past sins of the party that I vote for.
Was he not implanting himself in identity politics with his first sentence? I was under the impression that he identifies as a conservative, and was taking issue with peoples vitriol when they talk about conservatives in the thread.
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On April 14 2018 06:56 Sermokala wrote:I've accepted the thread and the mods don't want me or xdaunt or danglers in the thread. Maybe that'll change after november who knows.
Off the top of my head, the previous regulars so far banned (one way or another) for posts in the new US politics thread are Danglars, GreenHorizons, StealthBlue and Doodsmack. That doesn't seem to me like they're profiling conservatives specifically - can you explain this a little more?
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On April 14 2018 09:06 Tachion wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2018 08:49 Plansix wrote:On April 14 2018 08:45 Tachion wrote:On April 14 2018 06:56 Sermokala wrote:On April 14 2018 05:58 Plansix wrote:
We are all guilty of some high level bullshit. I can shit post with the best of them. But do you have specific examples of you being attacked? Or is this more about over generalization about conservatives? Do I need examples of being personally attacked in order to comment about the general tone the thread takes twords my identity? My comment was that people hate Trump. Not just despise him for his comments and condemn him for allegations against him but specifically hate him and the people that support him. That spills over to any conservative that tangentially have to be near him for what they believe in. Trump isn't important enough to me to change who I am. Hes not important enough to take away my agency for having morals. You seem like a pretty level headed person, so I hope people take that into consideration when speaking to you directly. There are many times though where posters will want to talk in a politics thread about the direction of the Republican party, or about the values of modern day conservatism. In that area, you're stuck being represented by someone who appears to be morally reprehensible. You can't avoid being judged for the company you keep. I don't think there is any comforting solution to the hate that troubles you. The political climate is divisive, people are furious, and there is an antagonistic bully in the news every day fanning the flames. The best you can probably do is bring the discussion to a more personal level where possible. I don't think anyone here is going to hate on you in a one on one conversation. This is the worst part of identity politics. He is not responsible for all people that label themselves as conservative. Just like I am not responsible for all the past sins of the party that I vote for. Was he not implanting himself in identity politics with his first sentence? I was under the impression that he identifies as a conservative, and was taking issue with peoples vitriol when they talk about conservatives in the thread.
Yes, and your plan about calling him out on the “company he keeps” feeds into the worst aspects of that. You are basically backing him into a corner. This is Fox News saying “why are the Muslims not speaking out against terrorism” when Muslims are totally doing that.
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On April 14 2018 07:40 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2018 07:19 Plansix wrote:On April 14 2018 06:56 Sermokala wrote:On April 14 2018 05:58 Plansix wrote:
We are all guilty of some high level bullshit. I can shit post with the best of them. But do you have specific examples of you being attacked? Or is this more about over generalization about conservatives? Do I need examples of being personally attacked in order to comment about the general tone the thread takes twords my identity? My comment was that people hate Trump. Not just despise him for his comments and condemn him for allegations against him but specifically hate him and the people that support him. That spills over to any conservative that tangentially have to be near him for what they believe in. Trump isn't important enough to me to change who I am. Hes not important enough to take away my agency for having morals. Conservatives and republicans are suppose to be the shitty people. For legitimacy the nation has to offer representation to the groups that others disagree with. I understand the irony of what I'm saying is taken directly from women and minorities rhetoric but if what they say has legitimacy it has to work the other way too. I've accepted the thread and the mods don't want me or xdaunt or danglers in the thread. Maybe that'll change after november who knows. Edit: for the sake of others no I don't think people should hate nazis. Hating them just plays into their hand and makes them stronger. I don’t really think the mods want that. And I don’t think your claim of feeling like the thread is attacking you is false. But there needs to be a productive way for people to talk about the bad actors in both conservative and liberal groups. I once suggested that broad, sweeping statements like “the left” and “all conservatives” should be clammed down on or bannable if people can’t stop using them. Folks should be required to be specific with their complains. And if they can’t be, they need to go back and think about those complaints until they can be specific. We would be better off. How do you feel regarding Zlefin's latest post? That is a person who seems wholly incapable of arguing the spirit of what was written over semantics, to the point arguing something as straight forward as "we shouldn't hate people" to "what about nazis?". I don't see how that's arguing in good faith. Show nested quote +On April 14 2018 06:43 ChristianS wrote:
He was responding to "nobody should hate anyone" with "really? Not even Nazis?", he wasn't calling anyone here a Nazi. I did something similar one time and LL got mad, so I guess it might be a good rule to just never bring up Nazis, even if it's purely as a rhetorical stand-in for "group I know none of us agree with," because people tend to misunderstand and think you're equating them with Nazis. Putting aside universally disliked people and groups, what exactly was added to the conversation with what Zlefin wrote? Seems like a petty gotcha more then anything. Actually for what it's worth, I don't think hating groups as a whole is a good idea either, whether it's nazis, communists, mongol hordes etc.
As far as I can tell, Sermo is conflating "hating Trump" with "hating people who support Trump," while zlefin is conflating "it's not okay to hate political opponents" with "it's not okay to hate anyone ever." I don't care much for the philosophical debate about whether it's ever okay to hate someone, because in my experience it's mostly a semantic debate disguised as a philosophical one. If everyone agrees that it's okay to oppose Nazis, or to go to war with Nazis, or decry Nazis as morally reprehensible, or feel horror and disgust at their beliefs and actions, then I don't know what it means to say "yeah, well, you still shouldn't HATE them."
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On April 14 2018 09:27 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2018 07:40 bo1b wrote:On April 14 2018 07:19 Plansix wrote:On April 14 2018 06:56 Sermokala wrote:On April 14 2018 05:58 Plansix wrote:
We are all guilty of some high level bullshit. I can shit post with the best of them. But do you have specific examples of you being attacked? Or is this more about over generalization about conservatives? Do I need examples of being personally attacked in order to comment about the general tone the thread takes twords my identity? My comment was that people hate Trump. Not just despise him for his comments and condemn him for allegations against him but specifically hate him and the people that support him. That spills over to any conservative that tangentially have to be near him for what they believe in. Trump isn't important enough to me to change who I am. Hes not important enough to take away my agency for having morals. Conservatives and republicans are suppose to be the shitty people. For legitimacy the nation has to offer representation to the groups that others disagree with. I understand the irony of what I'm saying is taken directly from women and minorities rhetoric but if what they say has legitimacy it has to work the other way too. I've accepted the thread and the mods don't want me or xdaunt or danglers in the thread. Maybe that'll change after november who knows. Edit: for the sake of others no I don't think people should hate nazis. Hating them just plays into their hand and makes them stronger. I don’t really think the mods want that. And I don’t think your claim of feeling like the thread is attacking you is false. But there needs to be a productive way for people to talk about the bad actors in both conservative and liberal groups. I once suggested that broad, sweeping statements like “the left” and “all conservatives” should be clammed down on or bannable if people can’t stop using them. Folks should be required to be specific with their complains. And if they can’t be, they need to go back and think about those complaints until they can be specific. We would be better off. How do you feel regarding Zlefin's latest post? That is a person who seems wholly incapable of arguing the spirit of what was written over semantics, to the point arguing something as straight forward as "we shouldn't hate people" to "what about nazis?". I don't see how that's arguing in good faith. On April 14 2018 06:43 ChristianS wrote:
He was responding to "nobody should hate anyone" with "really? Not even Nazis?", he wasn't calling anyone here a Nazi. I did something similar one time and LL got mad, so I guess it might be a good rule to just never bring up Nazis, even if it's purely as a rhetorical stand-in for "group I know none of us agree with," because people tend to misunderstand and think you're equating them with Nazis. Putting aside universally disliked people and groups, what exactly was added to the conversation with what Zlefin wrote? Seems like a petty gotcha more then anything. Actually for what it's worth, I don't think hating groups as a whole is a good idea either, whether it's nazis, communists, mongol hordes etc. As far as I can tell, Sermo is conflating "hating Trump" with "hating people who support Trump," while zlefin is conflating "it's not okay to hate political opponents" with "it's not okay to hate anyone ever." I don't care much for the philosophical debate about whether it's ever okay to hate someone, because in my experience it's mostly a semantic debate disguised as a philosophical one. If everyone agrees that it's okay to oppose Nazis, or to go to war with Nazis, or decry Nazis as morally reprehensible, or feel horror and disgust at their beliefs and actions, then I don't know what it means to say "yeah, well, you still shouldn't HATE them."
in what way am I making that conflation?
didn't sermo say it's not ok to hate anyone ever? (not in those exact words, but as a paraphrase)
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On April 14 2018 09:36 zlefin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2018 09:27 ChristianS wrote:On April 14 2018 07:40 bo1b wrote:On April 14 2018 07:19 Plansix wrote:On April 14 2018 06:56 Sermokala wrote:On April 14 2018 05:58 Plansix wrote:
We are all guilty of some high level bullshit. I can shit post with the best of them. But do you have specific examples of you being attacked? Or is this more about over generalization about conservatives? Do I need examples of being personally attacked in order to comment about the general tone the thread takes twords my identity? My comment was that people hate Trump. Not just despise him for his comments and condemn him for allegations against him but specifically hate him and the people that support him. That spills over to any conservative that tangentially have to be near him for what they believe in. Trump isn't important enough to me to change who I am. Hes not important enough to take away my agency for having morals. Conservatives and republicans are suppose to be the shitty people. For legitimacy the nation has to offer representation to the groups that others disagree with. I understand the irony of what I'm saying is taken directly from women and minorities rhetoric but if what they say has legitimacy it has to work the other way too. I've accepted the thread and the mods don't want me or xdaunt or danglers in the thread. Maybe that'll change after november who knows. Edit: for the sake of others no I don't think people should hate nazis. Hating them just plays into their hand and makes them stronger. I don’t really think the mods want that. And I don’t think your claim of feeling like the thread is attacking you is false. But there needs to be a productive way for people to talk about the bad actors in both conservative and liberal groups. I once suggested that broad, sweeping statements like “the left” and “all conservatives” should be clammed down on or bannable if people can’t stop using them. Folks should be required to be specific with their complains. And if they can’t be, they need to go back and think about those complaints until they can be specific. We would be better off. How do you feel regarding Zlefin's latest post? That is a person who seems wholly incapable of arguing the spirit of what was written over semantics, to the point arguing something as straight forward as "we shouldn't hate people" to "what about nazis?". I don't see how that's arguing in good faith. On April 14 2018 06:43 ChristianS wrote:
He was responding to "nobody should hate anyone" with "really? Not even Nazis?", he wasn't calling anyone here a Nazi. I did something similar one time and LL got mad, so I guess it might be a good rule to just never bring up Nazis, even if it's purely as a rhetorical stand-in for "group I know none of us agree with," because people tend to misunderstand and think you're equating them with Nazis. Putting aside universally disliked people and groups, what exactly was added to the conversation with what Zlefin wrote? Seems like a petty gotcha more then anything. Actually for what it's worth, I don't think hating groups as a whole is a good idea either, whether it's nazis, communists, mongol hordes etc. As far as I can tell, Sermo is conflating "hating Trump" with "hating people who support Trump," while zlefin is conflating "it's not okay to hate political opponents" with "it's not okay to hate anyone ever." I don't care much for the philosophical debate about whether it's ever okay to hate someone, because in my experience it's mostly a semantic debate disguised as a philosophical one. If everyone agrees that it's okay to oppose Nazis, or to go to war with Nazis, or decry Nazis as morally reprehensible, or feel horror and disgust at their beliefs and actions, then I don't know what it means to say "yeah, well, you still shouldn't HATE them." in what way am I making that conflation? didn't sermo say it's not ok to hate anyone ever? (not in those exact words, but as a paraphrase)
Yeah, but I don't think that's really what he's talking about. I think he's talking more specifically about the idea that you can disagree with someone politically without hating them, and we should strive for that in our discourse, which is a very different argument than "we shouldn't hate anyone, even mass murderers." I don't think either of you are intentionally misrepresenting each other, you're just kinda talking about different things.
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On April 14 2018 09:40 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2018 09:36 zlefin wrote:On April 14 2018 09:27 ChristianS wrote:On April 14 2018 07:40 bo1b wrote:On April 14 2018 07:19 Plansix wrote:On April 14 2018 06:56 Sermokala wrote:On April 14 2018 05:58 Plansix wrote:
We are all guilty of some high level bullshit. I can shit post with the best of them. But do you have specific examples of you being attacked? Or is this more about over generalization about conservatives? Do I need examples of being personally attacked in order to comment about the general tone the thread takes twords my identity? My comment was that people hate Trump. Not just despise him for his comments and condemn him for allegations against him but specifically hate him and the people that support him. That spills over to any conservative that tangentially have to be near him for what they believe in. Trump isn't important enough to me to change who I am. Hes not important enough to take away my agency for having morals. Conservatives and republicans are suppose to be the shitty people. For legitimacy the nation has to offer representation to the groups that others disagree with. I understand the irony of what I'm saying is taken directly from women and minorities rhetoric but if what they say has legitimacy it has to work the other way too. I've accepted the thread and the mods don't want me or xdaunt or danglers in the thread. Maybe that'll change after november who knows. Edit: for the sake of others no I don't think people should hate nazis. Hating them just plays into their hand and makes them stronger. I don’t really think the mods want that. And I don’t think your claim of feeling like the thread is attacking you is false. But there needs to be a productive way for people to talk about the bad actors in both conservative and liberal groups. I once suggested that broad, sweeping statements like “the left” and “all conservatives” should be clammed down on or bannable if people can’t stop using them. Folks should be required to be specific with their complains. And if they can’t be, they need to go back and think about those complaints until they can be specific. We would be better off. How do you feel regarding Zlefin's latest post? That is a person who seems wholly incapable of arguing the spirit of what was written over semantics, to the point arguing something as straight forward as "we shouldn't hate people" to "what about nazis?". I don't see how that's arguing in good faith. On April 14 2018 06:43 ChristianS wrote:
He was responding to "nobody should hate anyone" with "really? Not even Nazis?", he wasn't calling anyone here a Nazi. I did something similar one time and LL got mad, so I guess it might be a good rule to just never bring up Nazis, even if it's purely as a rhetorical stand-in for "group I know none of us agree with," because people tend to misunderstand and think you're equating them with Nazis. Putting aside universally disliked people and groups, what exactly was added to the conversation with what Zlefin wrote? Seems like a petty gotcha more then anything. Actually for what it's worth, I don't think hating groups as a whole is a good idea either, whether it's nazis, communists, mongol hordes etc. As far as I can tell, Sermo is conflating "hating Trump" with "hating people who support Trump," while zlefin is conflating "it's not okay to hate political opponents" with "it's not okay to hate anyone ever." I don't care much for the philosophical debate about whether it's ever okay to hate someone, because in my experience it's mostly a semantic debate disguised as a philosophical one. If everyone agrees that it's okay to oppose Nazis, or to go to war with Nazis, or decry Nazis as morally reprehensible, or feel horror and disgust at their beliefs and actions, then I don't know what it means to say "yeah, well, you still shouldn't HATE them." in what way am I making that conflation? didn't sermo say it's not ok to hate anyone ever? (not in those exact words, but as a paraphrase) Yeah, but I don't think that's really what he's talking about. I think he's talking more specifically about the idea that you can disagree with someone politically without hating them, and we should strive for that in our discourse, which is a very different argument than "we shouldn't hate anyone, even mass murderers." I don't think either of you are intentionally misrepresenting each other, you're just kinda talking about different things.
do you agree that my interpretation is a straightforward, literal reading of what he actually said; and you believe he meant something different than that interpretation?
how would that make what i'm doing conflation? rather than simply a different, but reasonable reading of what he said? that doesn't seem like conflating/combining two different things; but simply taking someone at their actual words as written.
also note that he also said "Edit: for the sake of others no I don't think people should hate nazis. Hating them just plays into their hand and makes them stronger. "
and also, though a bit less relevant (first half of the sentence omitted, but not really relevant for the quote) "hate is anathema to anything good in this world."
here's (sorta) my perspective: sermo's statement that is at the root of this discussion chain was ambiguous; did it mean "we shouldn't hate anyone, even mass murderers" or did it mean "you can disagree with someone politically without hating them, and we should strive for that in our discourse"
because it was ambiguous (or I wasn't sure which one he meant), I asked a question to clarify which one it was. and I used a very direct question to get there.
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Actually no point posting what I posted. ignore this
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Okay, sure, you didn't conflate. I apologize for the accusation, I only meant that I don't think he was talking about that philosophical question. Now please, I'm not trying to derail the thread any more than I have already
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EPT
