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On November 17 2012 03:28 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2012 03:24 jdseemoreglass wrote:if you go into a proper thread and say "i dont believe in gay marriage because A,B,C" then you're not going to get banned because if you present yourself in a reasonable manner (despite potentially being homophobic) the posts will be allowed. Sometimes they will be allowed, sometimes they won't be allowed. Kwark has already argued it doesn't matter how reasonable people try to be if they are wrong in his eyes. On November 17 2012 03:22 dAPhREAk wrote:On November 17 2012 03:19 JingleHell wrote:On November 17 2012 03:14 dAPhREAk wrote:On November 17 2012 02:24 opisska wrote:On November 17 2012 01:59 KwarK wrote:On November 17 2012 01:52 opisska wrote:On November 17 2012 01:23 KwarK wrote:On November 17 2012 00:26 opisska wrote:
I can't really blame him personally, he just does, what the society does. When the state does this to you, it feels kinda natural to do it to others, doesn't it? Most of the Europe has laws that dictate how certain parts of history happened. But if "homophobia" (whatever that is) is not welcome here, that should be probably right in the rules and explainet thoroughly, because, surprise, KwarK's idea on what is homophobia is not everyones. There appears to be a misunderstanding here. You are not a citizen in a society, you are a guest in our house. If a guest came into my house and started spouting offensive homophobic bullshit on my sofa I'd ask him to leave. The same applies. You are owed no freedoms or privileges although we do attempt to create a friendly environment. Homophobia is against the rules as stated in the 10 commandments and the moderating staff are empowered to judge what falls under that category at their discretion. It is a breach of the rules, no matter how sincerely homophobic you are. This is your answer to anything. Whereas it is a logically sound answer, it serves no purpose. What is the point of "Website feedback" when you don't want to hear it? To have a waste bin to dump annoying complainers out of the sidebar? Hey, I am not telling you "you can't impose the rules you bloody censor". Becuase THAT whould really be silly. Instead, I am telling you "look, your rules are neither clear nor reasonable. why don't you think about it for moment. you are a discussion forum, wouldn't the discussion be better if it was actually allowed to discuss these matters or at least the rules were clear about what is allowed"? Because THAT is called feedback. You are doing something - running a discussion forum - and I as a user of your service, I telling you, what issues I see with the service. For the record, the 10 commandements post shows no results on search strings "gay", "homo", "LGBT" or "minor" so I would assume that I really did not miss it and there actually is nothing about homophobia. You just see it implied in a general sentence, but what I have been trying to tell you for a pretty long time is that not everyone does. Yes, "this is our house" covers everything. But why do you even have any other rules then? Why is the forum even publicly accessible? I don't see any point in having such a forum other than fostering an enviroment for open discussion. Apologies, there used to be a rule that explained - Racist remarks will be shot down and you will be lynched.
- Homophobic comments will get shoved way up your ass.
- Sexist remarks of any kind whatsoever will be dealt with especially harshly. Yeah, we have female members – and we sure as hell would like to keep them!
- DO NOT POST ANYTHING IN ALL CAPS IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU’RE SCREAMING LIKE A RAVING LUNATIC AND WE WILL BE FORCED TO TREAT YOU LIKE ONE AAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!
- Post your topics in the appropriate forum. We have separate forums for a reason. Use your head and post under the forum that’s most relevant.
- Don't be an attention whore and give away the results of games, sporting events, movie endings, etc. in the title of the thread/post. Also, if you're going to reveal stuff in the body of your post, then be decent enough to put a "spoiler" warning in advance.
- Be very careful about resuscitating old threads. Sometimes it's ok, but sometimes it's not.
- Don’t know? Use the search function. It’s better than Google and it works because whatever questions you may have, chances are we’ve already discussed it before ad nauseum. Did a search already and you still don’t know? Ask politely! The explicit ban from homophobic, sexist and racist comments has been removed but there has been, to my knowledge, no change in policy. I can look into it if you'd like. OK, that solves one part of the misunderstanding. But you are still consciously eluding the others' questions whether subjects like gay marriage can be discussed - and you are doing it right, because, if you accept "no homophobia" as a rule, there is no answer. Other than to ban discussion of these things altogether - because otherwise it will be just a group of people congratulating each other that they have the same good opinion. You already did that with religion (very sadly, in my opinion - TL could be one of the few places on the internet with actually reasonable religious discussion), so it is not something you wouldn't do. On November 17 2012 02:01 JingleHell wrote:It also falls under the blanket rule in #10 involving having fun without detracting from other's fun, I'd assume. 10. THOU SHALL HAVE FUN
It's a fun site with fun people. Have fun with it. Enjoy it. Make others happy. Be happy. Avoid being negative. We don't expect you to be Pollyanna, but users who are consistently negative will draw the ire of their peers and site staff alike. No one likes people who have nothing but bad things to say all the time. Heed the admonition of Oscar Wilde: some people bring happiness wherever they go, others whenever they go. This is actually another absurd rule. How actually can you have "fun" in discussing serious issues? Probably depends on the definition of "fun". I have a nice time reading (only occasionaly entering, also because of the situation that we are right now discussing) these discussions, because they are interestiong and enriching. But I definitely do not have "fun" as in rolling on the floor laughing. kwark can correct me if im wrong, but they are going to ban you for hate speech. they are not going to ban you because you're a homophobe. if you go into a thread and say "fuck gays, i hope you all burn in hell" then you're going to get banned. if you go into a proper thread and say "i dont believe in gay marriage because A,B,C" then you're not going to get banned because if you present yourself in a reasonable manner (despite potentially being homophobic) the posts will be allowed. if you are arguing, you should be allowed to spread hate speech throughout tl.net, go fuck yourself you piece of shit! (see how unproductive that is). however, if you are arguing that homophobic views should be allowed in a reasonable manner (and reasonable place, dont go into the gay starcraft players thread), then i think they will allow it. Assuming that your A, B, and C aren't inherently homophobic or linked to hate speech, that's generally the trend, yes. Obvious example being the "slippery slope" from gay marriage to pedophilia or bestiality argument. why do you jump to the extremes so much? its hard to take you seriously. i dont know a single anti-gay marriage individual who thinks homosexuality is linked to pedophilia or beastiality. indeed, this is the first time i have even heard of beastiality in the same sentence as homoesexuality. wtf man. Nobody links the two. People simply ask where the marriage line should be drawn, and the standard straw man response is that this is claiming homosexuality and pedophilia or beastiality are somehow correlated. I'm afraid that is not the case. People have been linking homosexuality with pederasty for generations. It's pretty much the oldest negative stereotype applied to homosexuals, that they're deviants looking to rape your kids. It's still used and it's still believed by some homophobes.
I realize there are people in the world who think or have thought this. I'm saying this isn't an argument you hear often on these forums. When people ask where to draw the line with regard to marriage, they are quite frequently accused of correlating homosexuality with pedophilia or beastiality.
If a mod were to make this extrapolation they could even feel justified in banning someone, which is another example to tie this together.
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United States44285 Posts
On November 17 2012 03:30 jdseemoreglass wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2012 03:28 KwarK wrote:On November 17 2012 03:24 jdseemoreglass wrote:if you go into a proper thread and say "i dont believe in gay marriage because A,B,C" then you're not going to get banned because if you present yourself in a reasonable manner (despite potentially being homophobic) the posts will be allowed. Sometimes they will be allowed, sometimes they won't be allowed. Kwark has already argued it doesn't matter how reasonable people try to be if they are wrong in his eyes. On November 17 2012 03:22 dAPhREAk wrote:On November 17 2012 03:19 JingleHell wrote:On November 17 2012 03:14 dAPhREAk wrote:On November 17 2012 02:24 opisska wrote:On November 17 2012 01:59 KwarK wrote:On November 17 2012 01:52 opisska wrote:On November 17 2012 01:23 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
There appears to be a misunderstanding here. You are not a citizen in a society, you are a guest in our house. If a guest came into my house and started spouting offensive homophobic bullshit on my sofa I'd ask him to leave. The same applies. You are owed no freedoms or privileges although we do attempt to create a friendly environment.
Homophobia is against the rules as stated in the 10 commandments and the moderating staff are empowered to judge what falls under that category at their discretion. It is a breach of the rules, no matter how sincerely homophobic you are. This is your answer to anything. Whereas it is a logically sound answer, it serves no purpose. What is the point of "Website feedback" when you don't want to hear it? To have a waste bin to dump annoying complainers out of the sidebar? Hey, I am not telling you "you can't impose the rules you bloody censor". Becuase THAT whould really be silly. Instead, I am telling you "look, your rules are neither clear nor reasonable. why don't you think about it for moment. you are a discussion forum, wouldn't the discussion be better if it was actually allowed to discuss these matters or at least the rules were clear about what is allowed"? Because THAT is called feedback. You are doing something - running a discussion forum - and I as a user of your service, I telling you, what issues I see with the service. For the record, the 10 commandements post shows no results on search strings "gay", "homo", "LGBT" or "minor" so I would assume that I really did not miss it and there actually is nothing about homophobia. You just see it implied in a general sentence, but what I have been trying to tell you for a pretty long time is that not everyone does. Yes, "this is our house" covers everything. But why do you even have any other rules then? Why is the forum even publicly accessible? I don't see any point in having such a forum other than fostering an enviroment for open discussion. Apologies, there used to be a rule that explained - Racist remarks will be shot down and you will be lynched.
- Homophobic comments will get shoved way up your ass.
- Sexist remarks of any kind whatsoever will be dealt with especially harshly. Yeah, we have female members – and we sure as hell would like to keep them!
- DO NOT POST ANYTHING IN ALL CAPS IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU’RE SCREAMING LIKE A RAVING LUNATIC AND WE WILL BE FORCED TO TREAT YOU LIKE ONE AAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!
- Post your topics in the appropriate forum. We have separate forums for a reason. Use your head and post under the forum that’s most relevant.
- Don't be an attention whore and give away the results of games, sporting events, movie endings, etc. in the title of the thread/post. Also, if you're going to reveal stuff in the body of your post, then be decent enough to put a "spoiler" warning in advance.
- Be very careful about resuscitating old threads. Sometimes it's ok, but sometimes it's not.
- Don’t know? Use the search function. It’s better than Google and it works because whatever questions you may have, chances are we’ve already discussed it before ad nauseum. Did a search already and you still don’t know? Ask politely! The explicit ban from homophobic, sexist and racist comments has been removed but there has been, to my knowledge, no change in policy. I can look into it if you'd like. OK, that solves one part of the misunderstanding. But you are still consciously eluding the others' questions whether subjects like gay marriage can be discussed - and you are doing it right, because, if you accept "no homophobia" as a rule, there is no answer. Other than to ban discussion of these things altogether - because otherwise it will be just a group of people congratulating each other that they have the same good opinion. You already did that with religion (very sadly, in my opinion - TL could be one of the few places on the internet with actually reasonable religious discussion), so it is not something you wouldn't do. On November 17 2012 02:01 JingleHell wrote:It also falls under the blanket rule in #10 involving having fun without detracting from other's fun, I'd assume. 10. THOU SHALL HAVE FUN
It's a fun site with fun people. Have fun with it. Enjoy it. Make others happy. Be happy. Avoid being negative. We don't expect you to be Pollyanna, but users who are consistently negative will draw the ire of their peers and site staff alike. No one likes people who have nothing but bad things to say all the time. Heed the admonition of Oscar Wilde: some people bring happiness wherever they go, others whenever they go. This is actually another absurd rule. How actually can you have "fun" in discussing serious issues? Probably depends on the definition of "fun". I have a nice time reading (only occasionaly entering, also because of the situation that we are right now discussing) these discussions, because they are interestiong and enriching. But I definitely do not have "fun" as in rolling on the floor laughing. kwark can correct me if im wrong, but they are going to ban you for hate speech. they are not going to ban you because you're a homophobe. if you go into a thread and say "fuck gays, i hope you all burn in hell" then you're going to get banned. if you go into a proper thread and say "i dont believe in gay marriage because A,B,C" then you're not going to get banned because if you present yourself in a reasonable manner (despite potentially being homophobic) the posts will be allowed. if you are arguing, you should be allowed to spread hate speech throughout tl.net, go fuck yourself you piece of shit! (see how unproductive that is). however, if you are arguing that homophobic views should be allowed in a reasonable manner (and reasonable place, dont go into the gay starcraft players thread), then i think they will allow it. Assuming that your A, B, and C aren't inherently homophobic or linked to hate speech, that's generally the trend, yes. Obvious example being the "slippery slope" from gay marriage to pedophilia or bestiality argument. why do you jump to the extremes so much? its hard to take you seriously. i dont know a single anti-gay marriage individual who thinks homosexuality is linked to pedophilia or beastiality. indeed, this is the first time i have even heard of beastiality in the same sentence as homoesexuality. wtf man. Nobody links the two. People simply ask where the marriage line should be drawn, and the standard straw man response is that this is claiming homosexuality and pedophilia or beastiality are somehow correlated. I'm afraid that is not the case. People have been linking homosexuality with pederasty for generations. It's pretty much the oldest negative stereotype applied to homosexuals, that they're deviants looking to rape your kids. It's still used and it's still believed by some homophobes. I realize there are people in the world who think or have thought this. I'm saying this isn't an argument you hear often on these forums. When people ask where to draw the line with regard to marriage, they are quite frequently accused of correlating homosexuality with pedophilia or beastiality. If a mod were to make this extrapolation they could even feel justified in banning someone, which is another example to tie this together.
If it is a misunderstanding then you can PM the mod involved and attempt to explain. Several weeks ago I was PMed by the "gays shouldn't be in the boy scouts because gays shouldn't be allowed near children" guy I banned to attempt to explain exactly that, that I had misunderstood and that it was not homophobic. In that case, as his point was that gays specifically are a risk to children, I upheld the tempban as homophobic but he was free to PM another mod (which he did do) and to make a website feedback topic after his ban expired. There are processes in place and people do get bans shortened or undone quite regularly.
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On November 17 2012 03:24 jdseemoreglass wrote:Show nested quote +if you go into a proper thread and say "i dont believe in gay marriage because A,B,C" then you're not going to get banned because if you present yourself in a reasonable manner (despite potentially being homophobic) the posts will be allowed. Sometimes they will be allowed, sometimes they won't be allowed. Kwark has already argued it doesn't matter how reasonable people try to be if they are wrong in his eyes. Show nested quote +On November 17 2012 03:22 dAPhREAk wrote:On November 17 2012 03:19 JingleHell wrote:On November 17 2012 03:14 dAPhREAk wrote:On November 17 2012 02:24 opisska wrote:On November 17 2012 01:59 KwarK wrote:On November 17 2012 01:52 opisska wrote:On November 17 2012 01:23 KwarK wrote:On November 17 2012 00:26 opisska wrote:
I can't really blame him personally, he just does, what the society does. When the state does this to you, it feels kinda natural to do it to others, doesn't it? Most of the Europe has laws that dictate how certain parts of history happened. But if "homophobia" (whatever that is) is not welcome here, that should be probably right in the rules and explainet thoroughly, because, surprise, KwarK's idea on what is homophobia is not everyones. There appears to be a misunderstanding here. You are not a citizen in a society, you are a guest in our house. If a guest came into my house and started spouting offensive homophobic bullshit on my sofa I'd ask him to leave. The same applies. You are owed no freedoms or privileges although we do attempt to create a friendly environment. Homophobia is against the rules as stated in the 10 commandments and the moderating staff are empowered to judge what falls under that category at their discretion. It is a breach of the rules, no matter how sincerely homophobic you are. This is your answer to anything. Whereas it is a logically sound answer, it serves no purpose. What is the point of "Website feedback" when you don't want to hear it? To have a waste bin to dump annoying complainers out of the sidebar? Hey, I am not telling you "you can't impose the rules you bloody censor". Becuase THAT whould really be silly. Instead, I am telling you "look, your rules are neither clear nor reasonable. why don't you think about it for moment. you are a discussion forum, wouldn't the discussion be better if it was actually allowed to discuss these matters or at least the rules were clear about what is allowed"? Because THAT is called feedback. You are doing something - running a discussion forum - and I as a user of your service, I telling you, what issues I see with the service. For the record, the 10 commandements post shows no results on search strings "gay", "homo", "LGBT" or "minor" so I would assume that I really did not miss it and there actually is nothing about homophobia. You just see it implied in a general sentence, but what I have been trying to tell you for a pretty long time is that not everyone does. Yes, "this is our house" covers everything. But why do you even have any other rules then? Why is the forum even publicly accessible? I don't see any point in having such a forum other than fostering an enviroment for open discussion. Apologies, there used to be a rule that explained - Racist remarks will be shot down and you will be lynched.
- Homophobic comments will get shoved way up your ass.
- Sexist remarks of any kind whatsoever will be dealt with especially harshly. Yeah, we have female members – and we sure as hell would like to keep them!
- DO NOT POST ANYTHING IN ALL CAPS IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU’RE SCREAMING LIKE A RAVING LUNATIC AND WE WILL BE FORCED TO TREAT YOU LIKE ONE AAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!
- Post your topics in the appropriate forum. We have separate forums for a reason. Use your head and post under the forum that’s most relevant.
- Don't be an attention whore and give away the results of games, sporting events, movie endings, etc. in the title of the thread/post. Also, if you're going to reveal stuff in the body of your post, then be decent enough to put a "spoiler" warning in advance.
- Be very careful about resuscitating old threads. Sometimes it's ok, but sometimes it's not.
- Don’t know? Use the search function. It’s better than Google and it works because whatever questions you may have, chances are we’ve already discussed it before ad nauseum. Did a search already and you still don’t know? Ask politely! The explicit ban from homophobic, sexist and racist comments has been removed but there has been, to my knowledge, no change in policy. I can look into it if you'd like. OK, that solves one part of the misunderstanding. But you are still consciously eluding the others' questions whether subjects like gay marriage can be discussed - and you are doing it right, because, if you accept "no homophobia" as a rule, there is no answer. Other than to ban discussion of these things altogether - because otherwise it will be just a group of people congratulating each other that they have the same good opinion. You already did that with religion (very sadly, in my opinion - TL could be one of the few places on the internet with actually reasonable religious discussion), so it is not something you wouldn't do. On November 17 2012 02:01 JingleHell wrote:It also falls under the blanket rule in #10 involving having fun without detracting from other's fun, I'd assume. 10. THOU SHALL HAVE FUN
It's a fun site with fun people. Have fun with it. Enjoy it. Make others happy. Be happy. Avoid being negative. We don't expect you to be Pollyanna, but users who are consistently negative will draw the ire of their peers and site staff alike. No one likes people who have nothing but bad things to say all the time. Heed the admonition of Oscar Wilde: some people bring happiness wherever they go, others whenever they go. This is actually another absurd rule. How actually can you have "fun" in discussing serious issues? Probably depends on the definition of "fun". I have a nice time reading (only occasionaly entering, also because of the situation that we are right now discussing) these discussions, because they are interestiong and enriching. But I definitely do not have "fun" as in rolling on the floor laughing. kwark can correct me if im wrong, but they are going to ban you for hate speech. they are not going to ban you because you're a homophobe. if you go into a thread and say "fuck gays, i hope you all burn in hell" then you're going to get banned. if you go into a proper thread and say "i dont believe in gay marriage because A,B,C" then you're not going to get banned because if you present yourself in a reasonable manner (despite potentially being homophobic) the posts will be allowed. if you are arguing, you should be allowed to spread hate speech throughout tl.net, go fuck yourself you piece of shit! (see how unproductive that is). however, if you are arguing that homophobic views should be allowed in a reasonable manner (and reasonable place, dont go into the gay starcraft players thread), then i think they will allow it. Assuming that your A, B, and C aren't inherently homophobic or linked to hate speech, that's generally the trend, yes. Obvious example being the "slippery slope" from gay marriage to pedophilia or bestiality argument. why do you jump to the extremes so much? its hard to take you seriously. i dont know a single anti-gay marriage individual who thinks homosexuality is linked to pedophilia or beastiality. indeed, this is the first time i have even heard of beastiality in the same sentence as homoesexuality. wtf man. Nobody links the two. People simply ask where the marriage line should be drawn, and the standard straw man response is that this is claiming homosexuality and pedophilia or beastiality are somehow correlated.
I'm pretty sure I've seen KwarK ban people for that exact argument, so I know it happens on TL, and I've seen it other places too.
As to the question why I jump to the extremes? Well, the extreme examples make the point rather effectively. Why use a mild example that people might be more prone to debate when I've got an example that's so profoundly absurd and insulting to go with?
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On November 17 2012 03:36 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2012 03:30 jdseemoreglass wrote:On November 17 2012 03:28 KwarK wrote:On November 17 2012 03:24 jdseemoreglass wrote:if you go into a proper thread and say "i dont believe in gay marriage because A,B,C" then you're not going to get banned because if you present yourself in a reasonable manner (despite potentially being homophobic) the posts will be allowed. Sometimes they will be allowed, sometimes they won't be allowed. Kwark has already argued it doesn't matter how reasonable people try to be if they are wrong in his eyes. On November 17 2012 03:22 dAPhREAk wrote:On November 17 2012 03:19 JingleHell wrote:On November 17 2012 03:14 dAPhREAk wrote:On November 17 2012 02:24 opisska wrote:On November 17 2012 01:59 KwarK wrote:On November 17 2012 01:52 opisska wrote:
[quote]
This is your answer to anything. Whereas it is a logically sound answer, it serves no purpose. What is the point of "Website feedback" when you don't want to hear it? To have a waste bin to dump annoying complainers out of the sidebar?
Hey, I am not telling you "you can't impose the rules you bloody censor". Becuase THAT whould really be silly. Instead, I am telling you "look, your rules are neither clear nor reasonable. why don't you think about it for moment. you are a discussion forum, wouldn't the discussion be better if it was actually allowed to discuss these matters or at least the rules were clear about what is allowed"? Because THAT is called feedback. You are doing something - running a discussion forum - and I as a user of your service, I telling you, what issues I see with the service.
For the record, the 10 commandements post shows no results on search strings "gay", "homo", "LGBT" or "minor" so I would assume that I really did not miss it and there actually is nothing about homophobia. You just see it implied in a general sentence, but what I have been trying to tell you for a pretty long time is that not everyone does.
Yes, "this is our house" covers everything. But why do you even have any other rules then? Why is the forum even publicly accessible? I don't see any point in having such a forum other than fostering an enviroment for open discussion. Apologies, there used to be a rule that explained - Racist remarks will be shot down and you will be lynched.
- Homophobic comments will get shoved way up your ass.
- Sexist remarks of any kind whatsoever will be dealt with especially harshly. Yeah, we have female members – and we sure as hell would like to keep them!
- DO NOT POST ANYTHING IN ALL CAPS IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU’RE SCREAMING LIKE A RAVING LUNATIC AND WE WILL BE FORCED TO TREAT YOU LIKE ONE AAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!
- Post your topics in the appropriate forum. We have separate forums for a reason. Use your head and post under the forum that’s most relevant.
- Don't be an attention whore and give away the results of games, sporting events, movie endings, etc. in the title of the thread/post. Also, if you're going to reveal stuff in the body of your post, then be decent enough to put a "spoiler" warning in advance.
- Be very careful about resuscitating old threads. Sometimes it's ok, but sometimes it's not.
- Don’t know? Use the search function. It’s better than Google and it works because whatever questions you may have, chances are we’ve already discussed it before ad nauseum. Did a search already and you still don’t know? Ask politely! The explicit ban from homophobic, sexist and racist comments has been removed but there has been, to my knowledge, no change in policy. I can look into it if you'd like. OK, that solves one part of the misunderstanding. But you are still consciously eluding the others' questions whether subjects like gay marriage can be discussed - and you are doing it right, because, if you accept "no homophobia" as a rule, there is no answer. Other than to ban discussion of these things altogether - because otherwise it will be just a group of people congratulating each other that they have the same good opinion. You already did that with religion (very sadly, in my opinion - TL could be one of the few places on the internet with actually reasonable religious discussion), so it is not something you wouldn't do. On November 17 2012 02:01 JingleHell wrote:It also falls under the blanket rule in #10 involving having fun without detracting from other's fun, I'd assume. 10. THOU SHALL HAVE FUN
It's a fun site with fun people. Have fun with it. Enjoy it. Make others happy. Be happy. Avoid being negative. We don't expect you to be Pollyanna, but users who are consistently negative will draw the ire of their peers and site staff alike. No one likes people who have nothing but bad things to say all the time. Heed the admonition of Oscar Wilde: some people bring happiness wherever they go, others whenever they go. This is actually another absurd rule. How actually can you have "fun" in discussing serious issues? Probably depends on the definition of "fun". I have a nice time reading (only occasionaly entering, also because of the situation that we are right now discussing) these discussions, because they are interestiong and enriching. But I definitely do not have "fun" as in rolling on the floor laughing. kwark can correct me if im wrong, but they are going to ban you for hate speech. they are not going to ban you because you're a homophobe. if you go into a thread and say "fuck gays, i hope you all burn in hell" then you're going to get banned. if you go into a proper thread and say "i dont believe in gay marriage because A,B,C" then you're not going to get banned because if you present yourself in a reasonable manner (despite potentially being homophobic) the posts will be allowed. if you are arguing, you should be allowed to spread hate speech throughout tl.net, go fuck yourself you piece of shit! (see how unproductive that is). however, if you are arguing that homophobic views should be allowed in a reasonable manner (and reasonable place, dont go into the gay starcraft players thread), then i think they will allow it. Assuming that your A, B, and C aren't inherently homophobic or linked to hate speech, that's generally the trend, yes. Obvious example being the "slippery slope" from gay marriage to pedophilia or bestiality argument. why do you jump to the extremes so much? its hard to take you seriously. i dont know a single anti-gay marriage individual who thinks homosexuality is linked to pedophilia or beastiality. indeed, this is the first time i have even heard of beastiality in the same sentence as homoesexuality. wtf man. Nobody links the two. People simply ask where the marriage line should be drawn, and the standard straw man response is that this is claiming homosexuality and pedophilia or beastiality are somehow correlated. I'm afraid that is not the case. People have been linking homosexuality with pederasty for generations. It's pretty much the oldest negative stereotype applied to homosexuals, that they're deviants looking to rape your kids. It's still used and it's still believed by some homophobes. I realize there are people in the world who think or have thought this. I'm saying this isn't an argument you hear often on these forums. When people ask where to draw the line with regard to marriage, they are quite frequently accused of correlating homosexuality with pedophilia or beastiality. If a mod were to make this extrapolation they could even feel justified in banning someone, which is another example to tie this together. If it is a misunderstanding then you can PM the mod involved and attempt to explain. Several weeks ago I was PMed by the "gays shouldn't be in the boy scouts because gays shouldn't be allowed near children" guy I banned to attempt to explain exactly that, that I had misunderstood and that it was not homophobic. In that case, as his point was that gays specifically are a risk to children, I upheld the tempban as homophobic but he was free to PM another mod (which he did do) and to make a website feedback topic after his ban expired. There are processes in place and people do get bans shortened or undone quite regularly.
An excellent example of the idea that homophobia means different things to different people. It just so happens that some people are wrong.
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Maybe his argument wasn't that gays are specifically a risk to children. Maybe his argument is that gay males are a greater risk to male children than straight males to male children. Is that homophobic?
I was banned once for "euro-bashing" when it was clear to any objective observer that was not what I was doing. My courteous PM to the mod was completely ignored, and the thread I made in website feedback didn't help because they didn't like my "tone" in criticizing moderation.
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On November 17 2012 03:41 jdseemoreglass wrote:
Maybe his argument wasn't that gays are specifically a risk to children. Maybe his argument is that gay males are a greater risk to male children than straight males to male children. Is that homophobic?
I was banned once for "euro-bashing" when it was clear to any objective observer that was not what I was doing. My courteous PM to the mod was completely ignored, and the thread I made in website feedback didn't help because they didn't like my "tone" in criticizing moderation.
Did you know that Boy Scouts allow straight women to be involved with the troop, even to the point of coming to camping trips?
Obviously, since they're straight women and interested sexually in males, they're a greater risk to male children than straight male adults are, and shouldn't be allowed. But wait, they're allowed. Thus, the argument fails a simple logical comparison to an existing scenario.
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On November 17 2012 03:41 jdseemoreglass wrote:
Maybe his argument wasn't that gays are specifically a risk to children. Maybe his argument is that gay males are a greater risk to male children than straight males to male children. Is that homophobic?
I was banned once for "euro-bashing" when it was clear to any objective observer that was not what I was doing. My courteous PM to the mod was completely ignored, and the thread I made in website feedback didn't help because they didn't like my "tone" in criticizing moderation.
we got into this issue in the other thread. he didnt present himself well and was subsequently perm-banned. i think he was indeed homophobic and his post was ambiguous, but certainly implied awful.
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United States44285 Posts
On November 17 2012 03:41 jdseemoreglass wrote:
Maybe his argument wasn't that gays are specifically a risk to children. Maybe his argument is that gay males are a greater risk to male children than straight males to male children. Is that homophobic?
I was banned once for "euro-bashing" when it was clear to any objective observer that was not what I was doing. My courteous PM to the mod was completely ignored, and the thread I made in website feedback didn't help because they didn't like my "tone" in criticizing moderation.
Maybe although I doubt that, it's not like men who are attracted to people who are both female and of the age of consent take a look at a 4 year old girl and go "close enough", by the same token I sincerely doubt men who are attracted to people who are male and of the age of consent find boys any more appealing than girls. I am a heterosexual male but I feel no more inclined to molest young girls than young boys.
Given the context of the gays molesting children stereotype and the absurdity of the "well there are less things wrong about it to them so they're more likely to do it" argument I think it's clear that he meant exactly what he said, that gays rape kids.
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On November 17 2012 03:44 JingleHell wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2012 03:41 jdseemoreglass wrote:
Maybe his argument wasn't that gays are specifically a risk to children. Maybe his argument is that gay males are a greater risk to male children than straight males to male children. Is that homophobic?
I was banned once for "euro-bashing" when it was clear to any objective observer that was not what I was doing. My courteous PM to the mod was completely ignored, and the thread I made in website feedback didn't help because they didn't like my "tone" in criticizing moderation. Did you know that Boy Scouts allow straight women to be involved with the troop, even to the point of coming to camping trips? Obviously, since they're straight women and interested sexually in males, they're a greater risk to male children than straight male adults are, and shouldn't be allowed. But wait, they're allowed. Thus, the argument fails a simple logical comparison to an existing scenario.
i've never been on an overnight trip with females in boy scouts. you must have been from a very progressive branch. the argument that adults who are attracted to the sex of the child they are going on overnight trips with should be barred is a legitimate argument. that goes for both hetero- and homo-sexuals. if you dont agree with it, argue against it. it will lead to nice discourse--hopefully. dont be closed minded and immediately ban it.
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On November 17 2012 03:44 JingleHell wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2012 03:41 jdseemoreglass wrote:
Maybe his argument wasn't that gays are specifically a risk to children. Maybe his argument is that gay males are a greater risk to male children than straight males to male children. Is that homophobic?
I was banned once for "euro-bashing" when it was clear to any objective observer that was not what I was doing. My courteous PM to the mod was completely ignored, and the thread I made in website feedback didn't help because they didn't like my "tone" in criticizing moderation. Did you know that Boy Scouts allow straight women to be involved with the troop, even to the point of coming to camping trips? Obviously, since they're straight women and interested sexually in males, they're a greater risk to male children than straight male adults are, and shouldn't be allowed. But wait, they're allowed. Thus, the argument fails a simple logical comparison to an existing scenario.
Unless we can show that males are more likely to molest or rape than females regardless of orientation. If that could not be shown, then a person can be consistent by stating they also don't think straight women should be allowed.
I don't want to debate homosexuality or abortion here. I'm actually pro-choice and pro-gay marriage, people who know my politics should know this. My point is the issues are anything but settled and nobody has the right to insist they are settled and to enforce that view with authority.
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On November 17 2012 03:49 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2012 03:44 JingleHell wrote:On November 17 2012 03:41 jdseemoreglass wrote:
Maybe his argument wasn't that gays are specifically a risk to children. Maybe his argument is that gay males are a greater risk to male children than straight males to male children. Is that homophobic?
I was banned once for "euro-bashing" when it was clear to any objective observer that was not what I was doing. My courteous PM to the mod was completely ignored, and the thread I made in website feedback didn't help because they didn't like my "tone" in criticizing moderation. Did you know that Boy Scouts allow straight women to be involved with the troop, even to the point of coming to camping trips? Obviously, since they're straight women and interested sexually in males, they're a greater risk to male children than straight male adults are, and shouldn't be allowed. But wait, they're allowed. Thus, the argument fails a simple logical comparison to an existing scenario. i've never been on an overnight trip with females in boy scouts. you must have been from a very progressive branch. the argument that adults who are attracted to the sex of the child they are going on overnight trips with should be barred is a legitimate argument. that goes for both hetero- and homo-sexuals. if you dont agree with it, argue against it. it will lead to nice discourse--hopefully. dont be closed minded and immediately ban it.
Must be an individual troop decision, but I doubt one in the middle of Shitsplat, Texas, qualifies as progressive.
Certainly, though, it's food for thought within the discourse. If you ignore what KwarK just pointed to, which I wholeheartedly concur with. Being sexually interested in children doesn't automatically follow when they're the same gender as the people you're sexually interested in as adults.
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On November 17 2012 03:50 jdseemoreglass wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2012 03:44 JingleHell wrote:On November 17 2012 03:41 jdseemoreglass wrote:
Maybe his argument wasn't that gays are specifically a risk to children. Maybe his argument is that gay males are a greater risk to male children than straight males to male children. Is that homophobic?
I was banned once for "euro-bashing" when it was clear to any objective observer that was not what I was doing. My courteous PM to the mod was completely ignored, and the thread I made in website feedback didn't help because they didn't like my "tone" in criticizing moderation. Did you know that Boy Scouts allow straight women to be involved with the troop, even to the point of coming to camping trips? Obviously, since they're straight women and interested sexually in males, they're a greater risk to male children than straight male adults are, and shouldn't be allowed. But wait, they're allowed. Thus, the argument fails a simple logical comparison to an existing scenario. Unless we can show that males are more likely to molest or rape than females regardless of orientation. If that could not be shown, then a person can be consistent by stating they also don't think straight women should be allowed. I don't want to debate homosexuality or abortion here. I'm actually pro-choice and pro-gay marriage, people who know my politics should know this. My point is the issues are anything but settled and nobody has the right to insist they are settled and to enforce that view with authority.
But it's a higher risk, theoretically, which is all that could even vaguely be said regarding a gay man going along, as a blanket statement. Or are we now ok with treating the general rule as empirical, when we weren't before?
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United States44285 Posts
On November 17 2012 03:50 jdseemoreglass wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2012 03:44 JingleHell wrote:On November 17 2012 03:41 jdseemoreglass wrote:
Maybe his argument wasn't that gays are specifically a risk to children. Maybe his argument is that gay males are a greater risk to male children than straight males to male children. Is that homophobic?
I was banned once for "euro-bashing" when it was clear to any objective observer that was not what I was doing. My courteous PM to the mod was completely ignored, and the thread I made in website feedback didn't help because they didn't like my "tone" in criticizing moderation. Did you know that Boy Scouts allow straight women to be involved with the troop, even to the point of coming to camping trips? Obviously, since they're straight women and interested sexually in males, they're a greater risk to male children than straight male adults are, and shouldn't be allowed. But wait, they're allowed. Thus, the argument fails a simple logical comparison to an existing scenario. Unless we can show that males are more likely to molest or rape than females regardless of orientation. If that could not be shown, then a person can be consistent by stating they also don't think straight women should be allowed. I don't want to debate homosexuality or abortion here. I'm actually pro-choice and pro-gay marriage, people who know my politics should know this. My point is the issues are anything but settled and nobody has the right to insist they are settled and to enforce that view with authority.
Firstly, I do have the right and the authority. What you mean is that I shouldn't have the right, hence why you're complaining about it in feedback. Secondly, I am open to arguments against gay marriage that aren't homophobic. The problem is that an awful lot of them are homophobic and a lot of the people who argue against gay marriage are homophobes.
Claiming that marriage is a religious institution, not a social one, and that homophobic religions shouldn't be forced to let people they disagree with have their thing is a non homophobic argument for example. It is centred in allowing people to practice their religion freely, I don't agree with the argument but it doesn't require the assumption that gays are second class citizens for it to be valid. I would allow that argument.
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On November 17 2012 03:52 JingleHell wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2012 03:49 dAPhREAk wrote:On November 17 2012 03:44 JingleHell wrote:On November 17 2012 03:41 jdseemoreglass wrote:
Maybe his argument wasn't that gays are specifically a risk to children. Maybe his argument is that gay males are a greater risk to male children than straight males to male children. Is that homophobic?
I was banned once for "euro-bashing" when it was clear to any objective observer that was not what I was doing. My courteous PM to the mod was completely ignored, and the thread I made in website feedback didn't help because they didn't like my "tone" in criticizing moderation. Did you know that Boy Scouts allow straight women to be involved with the troop, even to the point of coming to camping trips? Obviously, since they're straight women and interested sexually in males, they're a greater risk to male children than straight male adults are, and shouldn't be allowed. But wait, they're allowed. Thus, the argument fails a simple logical comparison to an existing scenario. i've never been on an overnight trip with females in boy scouts. you must have been from a very progressive branch. the argument that adults who are attracted to the sex of the child they are going on overnight trips with should be barred is a legitimate argument. that goes for both hetero- and homo-sexuals. if you dont agree with it, argue against it. it will lead to nice discourse--hopefully. dont be closed minded and immediately ban it. Must be an individual troop decision, but I doubt one in the middle of Shitsplat, Texas, qualifies as progressive. Certainly, though, it's food for thought within the discourse. If you ignore what KwarK just pointed to, which I wholeheartedly concur with. Being sexually interested in children doesn't automatically follow when they're the same gender as the people you're sexually interested in as adults.
of course it doesnt follow, but adult heterosexual females have sex with underage males, adult heterosexual males have sex with underage females. this includes children put in the trust of the adults (e.g., students). thus, people dont want them around their children (just in case, because that .001% likelihood is just too much for some people). if you dont agree, then tell them how lame their argument is, dont ban it.
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United States44285 Posts
On November 17 2012 04:00 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2012 03:52 JingleHell wrote:On November 17 2012 03:49 dAPhREAk wrote:On November 17 2012 03:44 JingleHell wrote:On November 17 2012 03:41 jdseemoreglass wrote:
Maybe his argument wasn't that gays are specifically a risk to children. Maybe his argument is that gay males are a greater risk to male children than straight males to male children. Is that homophobic?
I was banned once for "euro-bashing" when it was clear to any objective observer that was not what I was doing. My courteous PM to the mod was completely ignored, and the thread I made in website feedback didn't help because they didn't like my "tone" in criticizing moderation. Did you know that Boy Scouts allow straight women to be involved with the troop, even to the point of coming to camping trips? Obviously, since they're straight women and interested sexually in males, they're a greater risk to male children than straight male adults are, and shouldn't be allowed. But wait, they're allowed. Thus, the argument fails a simple logical comparison to an existing scenario. i've never been on an overnight trip with females in boy scouts. you must have been from a very progressive branch. the argument that adults who are attracted to the sex of the child they are going on overnight trips with should be barred is a legitimate argument. that goes for both hetero- and homo-sexuals. if you dont agree with it, argue against it. it will lead to nice discourse--hopefully. dont be closed minded and immediately ban it. Must be an individual troop decision, but I doubt one in the middle of Shitsplat, Texas, qualifies as progressive. Certainly, though, it's food for thought within the discourse. If you ignore what KwarK just pointed to, which I wholeheartedly concur with. Being sexually interested in children doesn't automatically follow when they're the same gender as the people you're sexually interested in as adults. of course it doesnt follow, but adult heterosexual females have sex with underage males, adult heterosexual males have sex with underage females. this includes children put in the trust of the adults (e.g., students). thus, people dont want them around their children (just in case, because that .001% likelihood is just too much for some people). if you dont agree, then tell them how lame their argument is, dont ban it.
In the context of it being a popular homophobic slur I don't think the "maybe he just meant that the 0.001% more chance was too much for him to handle" argument holds any water. He meant exactly what he said, that gays can't be trusted near children (because everyone knows gays rape kids).
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On November 17 2012 04:00 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2012 03:52 JingleHell wrote:On November 17 2012 03:49 dAPhREAk wrote:On November 17 2012 03:44 JingleHell wrote:On November 17 2012 03:41 jdseemoreglass wrote:
Maybe his argument wasn't that gays are specifically a risk to children. Maybe his argument is that gay males are a greater risk to male children than straight males to male children. Is that homophobic?
I was banned once for "euro-bashing" when it was clear to any objective observer that was not what I was doing. My courteous PM to the mod was completely ignored, and the thread I made in website feedback didn't help because they didn't like my "tone" in criticizing moderation. Did you know that Boy Scouts allow straight women to be involved with the troop, even to the point of coming to camping trips? Obviously, since they're straight women and interested sexually in males, they're a greater risk to male children than straight male adults are, and shouldn't be allowed. But wait, they're allowed. Thus, the argument fails a simple logical comparison to an existing scenario. i've never been on an overnight trip with females in boy scouts. you must have been from a very progressive branch. the argument that adults who are attracted to the sex of the child they are going on overnight trips with should be barred is a legitimate argument. that goes for both hetero- and homo-sexuals. if you dont agree with it, argue against it. it will lead to nice discourse--hopefully. dont be closed minded and immediately ban it. Must be an individual troop decision, but I doubt one in the middle of Shitsplat, Texas, qualifies as progressive. Certainly, though, it's food for thought within the discourse. If you ignore what KwarK just pointed to, which I wholeheartedly concur with. Being sexually interested in children doesn't automatically follow when they're the same gender as the people you're sexually interested in as adults. of course it doesnt follow, but adult heterosexual females have sex with underage males, adult heterosexual males have sex with underage females. this includes children put in the trust of the adults (e.g., students). thus, people dont want them around their children (just in case, because that .001% likelihood is just too much for some people). if you dont agree, then tell them how lame their argument is, dont ban it.
I'm fairly sure if the implication had been .001%, rather than an implication of a strong likelihood, it would have gone differently. I can't speak for KwarK, but he's usually pretty reasonable.
Hell, I said I own a gun and he hasn't banned me yet.
Ninjad.
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On November 17 2012 04:06 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2012 04:00 dAPhREAk wrote:On November 17 2012 03:52 JingleHell wrote:On November 17 2012 03:49 dAPhREAk wrote:On November 17 2012 03:44 JingleHell wrote:On November 17 2012 03:41 jdseemoreglass wrote:
Maybe his argument wasn't that gays are specifically a risk to children. Maybe his argument is that gay males are a greater risk to male children than straight males to male children. Is that homophobic?
I was banned once for "euro-bashing" when it was clear to any objective observer that was not what I was doing. My courteous PM to the mod was completely ignored, and the thread I made in website feedback didn't help because they didn't like my "tone" in criticizing moderation. Did you know that Boy Scouts allow straight women to be involved with the troop, even to the point of coming to camping trips? Obviously, since they're straight women and interested sexually in males, they're a greater risk to male children than straight male adults are, and shouldn't be allowed. But wait, they're allowed. Thus, the argument fails a simple logical comparison to an existing scenario. i've never been on an overnight trip with females in boy scouts. you must have been from a very progressive branch. the argument that adults who are attracted to the sex of the child they are going on overnight trips with should be barred is a legitimate argument. that goes for both hetero- and homo-sexuals. if you dont agree with it, argue against it. it will lead to nice discourse--hopefully. dont be closed minded and immediately ban it. Must be an individual troop decision, but I doubt one in the middle of Shitsplat, Texas, qualifies as progressive. Certainly, though, it's food for thought within the discourse. If you ignore what KwarK just pointed to, which I wholeheartedly concur with. Being sexually interested in children doesn't automatically follow when they're the same gender as the people you're sexually interested in as adults. of course it doesnt follow, but adult heterosexual females have sex with underage males, adult heterosexual males have sex with underage females. this includes children put in the trust of the adults (e.g., students). thus, people dont want them around their children (just in case, because that .001% likelihood is just too much for some people). if you dont agree, then tell them how lame their argument is, dont ban it. In the context of it being a popular homophobic slur I don't think the "maybe he just meant that the 0.001% more chance was too much for him to handle" argument holds any water. He meant exactly what he said, that gays can't be trusted near children because everyone knows gays rape kids.
actually, i wasnt referring to the guy's specific post. i was stating that the argument should be allowed.
with respect to the guy who used "prancing," i have already said it appeared he was being homophobic. his subsequent PMs and posts did not help his case.
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If it's made as an argument, with data, rather than a relatively blanket insult, it has much better odds of being allowed.
If we make it about religious people and child molestation, because of a few outliers, would that be offensive to religious people?
Specifically, if I imply that all members of Christian religions or sub-religions are pedophiles because of those outliers, is it insulting? As opposed to say, commenting on specific cases?
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On November 17 2012 04:15 JingleHell wrote:
If it's made as an argument, with data, rather than a relatively blanket insult, it has much better odds of being allowed.
If we make it about religious people and child molestation, because of a few outliers, would that be offensive to religious people?
Specifically, if I imply that all members of Christian religions or sub-religions are pedophiles because of those outliers, is it insulting? As opposed to say, commenting on specific cases?
i dont care if you make the argument that you wouldnt trust your child with a christian because there are christian pedophiles. go for it if you truly believe that. thats not hate speech, and it should be allowed as well.
if you want to make the argument that all christians are pedophiles because a few are then you are just being stupid. i wouldnt ban that personally, but i wouldnt question kwark's banning of it.
to be clear, if someone says they dont trust homosexuals with their children because all homosexuals are pedophiles, i have no problem moderating that. i never made that argument, nor would i make such a ridiculous assertion.
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On November 17 2012 03:02 JingleHell wrote:
Actually gene pointed that part of it out, I pointed to a different connection. Both of us made it clear we were talking about a general rule overall, not referring to individuals.
And yes, a huge portion of the pro-life crowd is also anti-gay.
Trust me, as an ex-Army, gun owning, pro-choice, pro-gay marriage type myself, I'm more than aware that not everyone follows a party line 100%.
We have to discuss gun control some time, but not here.
I want to go back to the fact that he wants leniency for Holocaust deniers. The mere fact that he thinks we should allow people to deny the Holocaust, despite massive amounts of evidence, casts a large shadow over all of his other points.
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EPT
