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On November 17 2012 02:11 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2012 02:03 jdseemoreglass wrote:On November 17 2012 01:58 KwarK wrote:On November 17 2012 01:53 jdseemoreglass wrote:On November 17 2012 01:41 KwarK wrote:On November 17 2012 01:30 jdseemoreglass wrote:
lol, all that talk about not arguing from definition, and now this... Obviously if you predefine something as homophobic then it is easy to justify eliminating it. His point is that the term is subjective.
For example, I'm assuming you think that opposing gay marriage is inherently homophobic. So does that mean no one on the site should even be allowed to debate the issue? I make a subjective judgement that something is homophobic and am empowered to act, I do not require an objective truth nor do I claim that I have found one. You still haven't worked out why your argument was a logical fallacy. I'll run it by you again. You said that because you call both a pre birth and post birth baby a baby then they are the same thing because you use the same word. It is meaningless because the definition you use for that word does not translate and therefore your conclusion, which is contained entirely within your starting premise of the definition of the word you use, is not communicated. The meaning of the word can be translated with context, obviously a debate about abortion should be a large indication of the meaning. And it's not the definition that is important here, it's an emotional argument being made. People should be allowed to make emotional arguments in a discussion about morality. You dodged my assumption about gay marriage. Safe to say it's confirmed? It would depend on the argument used. If amounted to just "they should have less rights then regular people" then sure, it'd be homophobic. JingleHell seems to think no such argument is possible. In either case, my point is made. Subjective assessments can and often are used to stifle opinions on this site. I realize the rules support that, I think the rules are wrong. What's even worse is that the subjective assessments are not even consistent from day to day or from mod to mod, which has a chilling effect on posting because people have no clue the criteria for acceptable or unacceptable posting. Fortunately it's actually quite difficult to get banned on tl for a borderline post and if mods do disagree on it then you can request that it gets discussed in the mod forum. Getting permabanned is even harder, there are people with much longer histories than you still collecting warnings and short tempbans.
Obviously our view of "borderline" is pretty wide apart. I already provided several examples which appeared borderline to me and were all banned, and you thought they were all open and shut cases.
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United States42640 Posts
On November 17 2012 02:15 jdseemoreglass wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2012 02:11 KwarK wrote:On November 17 2012 02:03 jdseemoreglass wrote:On November 17 2012 01:58 KwarK wrote:On November 17 2012 01:53 jdseemoreglass wrote:On November 17 2012 01:41 KwarK wrote:On November 17 2012 01:30 jdseemoreglass wrote:
lol, all that talk about not arguing from definition, and now this... Obviously if you predefine something as homophobic then it is easy to justify eliminating it. His point is that the term is subjective.
For example, I'm assuming you think that opposing gay marriage is inherently homophobic. So does that mean no one on the site should even be allowed to debate the issue? I make a subjective judgement that something is homophobic and am empowered to act, I do not require an objective truth nor do I claim that I have found one. You still haven't worked out why your argument was a logical fallacy. I'll run it by you again. You said that because you call both a pre birth and post birth baby a baby then they are the same thing because you use the same word. It is meaningless because the definition you use for that word does not translate and therefore your conclusion, which is contained entirely within your starting premise of the definition of the word you use, is not communicated. The meaning of the word can be translated with context, obviously a debate about abortion should be a large indication of the meaning. And it's not the definition that is important here, it's an emotional argument being made. People should be allowed to make emotional arguments in a discussion about morality. You dodged my assumption about gay marriage. Safe to say it's confirmed? It would depend on the argument used. If amounted to just "they should have less rights then regular people" then sure, it'd be homophobic. JingleHell seems to think no such argument is possible. In either case, my point is made. Subjective assessments can and often are used to stifle opinions on this site. I realize the rules support that, I think the rules are wrong. What's even worse is that the subjective assessments are not even consistent from day to day or from mod to mod, which has a chilling effect on posting because people have no clue the criteria for acceptable or unacceptable posting. Fortunately it's actually quite difficult to get banned on tl for a borderline post and if mods do disagree on it then you can request that it gets discussed in the mod forum. Getting permabanned is even harder, there are people with much longer histories than you still collecting warnings and short tempbans. Obviously our view of "borderline" is pretty wide apart. I already provided several examples which appeared borderline to me and were all banned, and you thought they were all open and shut cases.
Although in fairness we largely disagreed on the interpretation of some of them rather than where the line is.
I read "rape is when a woman lies about consensual sex" as a denial that rape ever happens and the dismissal of all rape victims everywhere as liars who really wanted it which is a pretty disgraceful thing to say, even if you believe it. I'm assuming you interpreted the post differently rather than believing that that's a perfectly acceptable thing to say.
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opisska, JD, yea.
It's dumb. It's dumb since homophobia is unquestionably bad.
And like Jingle pointed out, the same people who are homophobic that always refer to a fetus as "baby".
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On November 17 2012 02:20 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2012 02:15 jdseemoreglass wrote:On November 17 2012 02:11 KwarK wrote:On November 17 2012 02:03 jdseemoreglass wrote:On November 17 2012 01:58 KwarK wrote:On November 17 2012 01:53 jdseemoreglass wrote:On November 17 2012 01:41 KwarK wrote:On November 17 2012 01:30 jdseemoreglass wrote:
lol, all that talk about not arguing from definition, and now this... Obviously if you predefine something as homophobic then it is easy to justify eliminating it. His point is that the term is subjective.
For example, I'm assuming you think that opposing gay marriage is inherently homophobic. So does that mean no one on the site should even be allowed to debate the issue? I make a subjective judgement that something is homophobic and am empowered to act, I do not require an objective truth nor do I claim that I have found one. You still haven't worked out why your argument was a logical fallacy. I'll run it by you again. You said that because you call both a pre birth and post birth baby a baby then they are the same thing because you use the same word. It is meaningless because the definition you use for that word does not translate and therefore your conclusion, which is contained entirely within your starting premise of the definition of the word you use, is not communicated. The meaning of the word can be translated with context, obviously a debate about abortion should be a large indication of the meaning. And it's not the definition that is important here, it's an emotional argument being made. People should be allowed to make emotional arguments in a discussion about morality. You dodged my assumption about gay marriage. Safe to say it's confirmed? It would depend on the argument used. If amounted to just "they should have less rights then regular people" then sure, it'd be homophobic. JingleHell seems to think no such argument is possible. In either case, my point is made. Subjective assessments can and often are used to stifle opinions on this site. I realize the rules support that, I think the rules are wrong. What's even worse is that the subjective assessments are not even consistent from day to day or from mod to mod, which has a chilling effect on posting because people have no clue the criteria for acceptable or unacceptable posting. Fortunately it's actually quite difficult to get banned on tl for a borderline post and if mods do disagree on it then you can request that it gets discussed in the mod forum. Getting permabanned is even harder, there are people with much longer histories than you still collecting warnings and short tempbans. Obviously our view of "borderline" is pretty wide apart. I already provided several examples which appeared borderline to me and were all banned, and you thought they were all open and shut cases. Although in fairness we largely disagreed on the interpretation of some of them rather than where the line is. I read "rape is when a woman lies about consensual sex" as a denial that rape ever happens and the dismissal of all rape victims everywhere as liars who really wanted it which is a pretty disgraceful thing to say, even if you believe it. I'm assuming you interpreted the post differently rather than believing that that's a perfectly acceptable thing to say.
The only reason those posts began with the words "rape is" is because the title of the thread itself was "what is rape?" With all the harping you were doing on the idea of rape culture, I think you would have been partial to banning them even if the language was clarified.
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On November 17 2012 01:59 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2012 01:52 opisska wrote:On November 17 2012 01:23 KwarK wrote:On November 17 2012 00:26 opisska wrote:
I can't really blame him personally, he just does, what the society does. When the state does this to you, it feels kinda natural to do it to others, doesn't it? Most of the Europe has laws that dictate how certain parts of history happened. But if "homophobia" (whatever that is) is not welcome here, that should be probably right in the rules and explainet thoroughly, because, surprise, KwarK's idea on what is homophobia is not everyones. There appears to be a misunderstanding here. You are not a citizen in a society, you are a guest in our house. If a guest came into my house and started spouting offensive homophobic bullshit on my sofa I'd ask him to leave. The same applies. You are owed no freedoms or privileges although we do attempt to create a friendly environment. Homophobia is against the rules as stated in the 10 commandments and the moderating staff are empowered to judge what falls under that category at their discretion. It is a breach of the rules, no matter how sincerely homophobic you are. This is your answer to anything. Whereas it is a logically sound answer, it serves no purpose. What is the point of "Website feedback" when you don't want to hear it? To have a waste bin to dump annoying complainers out of the sidebar? Hey, I am not telling you "you can't impose the rules you bloody censor". Becuase THAT whould really be silly. Instead, I am telling you "look, your rules are neither clear nor reasonable. why don't you think about it for moment. you are a discussion forum, wouldn't the discussion be better if it was actually allowed to discuss these matters or at least the rules were clear about what is allowed"? Because THAT is called feedback. You are doing something - running a discussion forum - and I as a user of your service, I telling you, what issues I see with the service. For the record, the 10 commandements post shows no results on search strings "gay", "homo", "LGBT" or "minor" so I would assume that I really did not miss it and there actually is nothing about homophobia. You just see it implied in a general sentence, but what I have been trying to tell you for a pretty long time is that not everyone does. Yes, "this is our house" covers everything. But why do you even have any other rules then? Why is the forum even publicly accessible? I don't see any point in having such a forum other than fostering an enviroment for open discussion. Apologies, there used to be a rule that explained Show nested quote +- Racist remarks will be shot down and you will be lynched.
- Homophobic comments will get shoved way up your ass.
- Sexist remarks of any kind whatsoever will be dealt with especially harshly. Yeah, we have female members – and we sure as hell would like to keep them!
- DO NOT POST ANYTHING IN ALL CAPS IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU’RE SCREAMING LIKE A RAVING LUNATIC AND WE WILL BE FORCED TO TREAT YOU LIKE ONE AAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!
- Post your topics in the appropriate forum. We have separate forums for a reason. Use your head and post under the forum that’s most relevant.
- Don't be an attention whore and give away the results of games, sporting events, movie endings, etc. in the title of the thread/post. Also, if you're going to reveal stuff in the body of your post, then be decent enough to put a "spoiler" warning in advance.
- Be very careful about resuscitating old threads. Sometimes it's ok, but sometimes it's not.
- Don’t know? Use the search function. It’s better than Google and it works because whatever questions you may have, chances are we’ve already discussed it before ad nauseum. Did a search already and you still don’t know? Ask politely! The explicit ban from homophobic, sexist and racist comments has been removed but there has been, to my knowledge, no change in policy. I can look into it if you'd like.
OK, that solves one part of the misunderstanding.
But you are still consciously eluding the others' questions whether subjects like gay marriage can be discussed - and you are doing it right, because, if you accept "no homophobia" as a rule, there is no answer. Other than to ban discussion of these things altogether - because otherwise it will be just a group of people congratulating each other that they have the same good opinion. You already did that with religion (very sadly, in my opinion - TL could be one of the few places on the internet with actually reasonable religious discussion), so it is not something you wouldn't do.
On November 17 2012 02:01 JingleHell wrote:It also falls under the blanket rule in #10 involving having fun without detracting from other's fun, I'd assume. Show nested quote +10. THOU SHALL HAVE FUN
It's a fun site with fun people. Have fun with it. Enjoy it. Make others happy. Be happy. Avoid being negative. We don't expect you to be Pollyanna, but users who are consistently negative will draw the ire of their peers and site staff alike. No one likes people who have nothing but bad things to say all the time. Heed the admonition of Oscar Wilde: some people bring happiness wherever they go, others whenever they go.
This is actually another absurd rule. How actually can you have "fun" in discussing serious issues? Probably depends on the definition of "fun". I have a nice time reading (only occasionaly entering, also because of the situation that we are right now discussing) these discussions, because they are interestiong and enriching. But I definitely do not have "fun" as in rolling on the floor laughing.
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United States42640 Posts
On November 17 2012 02:24 jdseemoreglass wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2012 02:20 KwarK wrote:On November 17 2012 02:15 jdseemoreglass wrote:On November 17 2012 02:11 KwarK wrote:On November 17 2012 02:03 jdseemoreglass wrote:On November 17 2012 01:58 KwarK wrote:On November 17 2012 01:53 jdseemoreglass wrote:On November 17 2012 01:41 KwarK wrote:On November 17 2012 01:30 jdseemoreglass wrote:
lol, all that talk about not arguing from definition, and now this... Obviously if you predefine something as homophobic then it is easy to justify eliminating it. His point is that the term is subjective.
For example, I'm assuming you think that opposing gay marriage is inherently homophobic. So does that mean no one on the site should even be allowed to debate the issue? I make a subjective judgement that something is homophobic and am empowered to act, I do not require an objective truth nor do I claim that I have found one. You still haven't worked out why your argument was a logical fallacy. I'll run it by you again. You said that because you call both a pre birth and post birth baby a baby then they are the same thing because you use the same word. It is meaningless because the definition you use for that word does not translate and therefore your conclusion, which is contained entirely within your starting premise of the definition of the word you use, is not communicated. The meaning of the word can be translated with context, obviously a debate about abortion should be a large indication of the meaning. And it's not the definition that is important here, it's an emotional argument being made. People should be allowed to make emotional arguments in a discussion about morality. You dodged my assumption about gay marriage. Safe to say it's confirmed? It would depend on the argument used. If amounted to just "they should have less rights then regular people" then sure, it'd be homophobic. JingleHell seems to think no such argument is possible. In either case, my point is made. Subjective assessments can and often are used to stifle opinions on this site. I realize the rules support that, I think the rules are wrong. What's even worse is that the subjective assessments are not even consistent from day to day or from mod to mod, which has a chilling effect on posting because people have no clue the criteria for acceptable or unacceptable posting. Fortunately it's actually quite difficult to get banned on tl for a borderline post and if mods do disagree on it then you can request that it gets discussed in the mod forum. Getting permabanned is even harder, there are people with much longer histories than you still collecting warnings and short tempbans. Obviously our view of "borderline" is pretty wide apart. I already provided several examples which appeared borderline to me and were all banned, and you thought they were all open and shut cases. Although in fairness we largely disagreed on the interpretation of some of them rather than where the line is. I read "rape is when a woman lies about consensual sex" as a denial that rape ever happens and the dismissal of all rape victims everywhere as liars who really wanted it which is a pretty disgraceful thing to say, even if you believe it. I'm assuming you interpreted the post differently rather than believing that that's a perfectly acceptable thing to say. The only reason those posts began with the words "rape is" is because the title of the thread itself was "what is rape?" With all the harping you were doing on the idea of rape culture, I think you would have been partial to banning them even if the language was clarified.
If I was having a discussion on my sofa with some guys I know about what is racism in today's world and one of them went "racism is what niggers whine about when they're mad because they're too dumb to get the same jobs white guys get" then I'd ask him to leave. The fact that the question invited an opinion does not mean all opinions become acceptable.
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On November 17 2012 02:24 opisska wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2012 01:59 KwarK wrote:On November 17 2012 01:52 opisska wrote:On November 17 2012 01:23 KwarK wrote:On November 17 2012 00:26 opisska wrote:
I can't really blame him personally, he just does, what the society does. When the state does this to you, it feels kinda natural to do it to others, doesn't it? Most of the Europe has laws that dictate how certain parts of history happened. But if "homophobia" (whatever that is) is not welcome here, that should be probably right in the rules and explainet thoroughly, because, surprise, KwarK's idea on what is homophobia is not everyones. There appears to be a misunderstanding here. You are not a citizen in a society, you are a guest in our house. If a guest came into my house and started spouting offensive homophobic bullshit on my sofa I'd ask him to leave. The same applies. You are owed no freedoms or privileges although we do attempt to create a friendly environment. Homophobia is against the rules as stated in the 10 commandments and the moderating staff are empowered to judge what falls under that category at their discretion. It is a breach of the rules, no matter how sincerely homophobic you are. This is your answer to anything. Whereas it is a logically sound answer, it serves no purpose. What is the point of "Website feedback" when you don't want to hear it? To have a waste bin to dump annoying complainers out of the sidebar? Hey, I am not telling you "you can't impose the rules you bloody censor". Becuase THAT whould really be silly. Instead, I am telling you "look, your rules are neither clear nor reasonable. why don't you think about it for moment. you are a discussion forum, wouldn't the discussion be better if it was actually allowed to discuss these matters or at least the rules were clear about what is allowed"? Because THAT is called feedback. You are doing something - running a discussion forum - and I as a user of your service, I telling you, what issues I see with the service. For the record, the 10 commandements post shows no results on search strings "gay", "homo", "LGBT" or "minor" so I would assume that I really did not miss it and there actually is nothing about homophobia. You just see it implied in a general sentence, but what I have been trying to tell you for a pretty long time is that not everyone does. Yes, "this is our house" covers everything. But why do you even have any other rules then? Why is the forum even publicly accessible? I don't see any point in having such a forum other than fostering an enviroment for open discussion. Apologies, there used to be a rule that explained - Racist remarks will be shot down and you will be lynched.
- Homophobic comments will get shoved way up your ass.
- Sexist remarks of any kind whatsoever will be dealt with especially harshly. Yeah, we have female members – and we sure as hell would like to keep them!
- DO NOT POST ANYTHING IN ALL CAPS IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU’RE SCREAMING LIKE A RAVING LUNATIC AND WE WILL BE FORCED TO TREAT YOU LIKE ONE AAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!
- Post your topics in the appropriate forum. We have separate forums for a reason. Use your head and post under the forum that’s most relevant.
- Don't be an attention whore and give away the results of games, sporting events, movie endings, etc. in the title of the thread/post. Also, if you're going to reveal stuff in the body of your post, then be decent enough to put a "spoiler" warning in advance.
- Be very careful about resuscitating old threads. Sometimes it's ok, but sometimes it's not.
- Don’t know? Use the search function. It’s better than Google and it works because whatever questions you may have, chances are we’ve already discussed it before ad nauseum. Did a search already and you still don’t know? Ask politely! The explicit ban from homophobic, sexist and racist comments has been removed but there has been, to my knowledge, no change in policy. I can look into it if you'd like. OK, that solves one part of the misunderstanding. But you are still consciously eluding the others' questions whether subjects like gay marriage can be discussed - and you are doing it right, because, if you accept "no homophobia" as a rule, there is no answer. Other than to ban discussion of these things altogether - because otherwise it will be just a group of people congratulating each other that they have the same good opinion. You already did that with religion (very sadly, in my opinion - TL could be one of the few places on the internet with actually reasonable religious discussion), so it is not something you wouldn't do. Show nested quote +On November 17 2012 02:01 JingleHell wrote:It also falls under the blanket rule in #10 involving having fun without detracting from other's fun, I'd assume. 10. THOU SHALL HAVE FUN
It's a fun site with fun people. Have fun with it. Enjoy it. Make others happy. Be happy. Avoid being negative. We don't expect you to be Pollyanna, but users who are consistently negative will draw the ire of their peers and site staff alike. No one likes people who have nothing but bad things to say all the time. Heed the admonition of Oscar Wilde: some people bring happiness wherever they go, others whenever they go. This is actually another absurd rule. How actually can you have "fun" in discussing serious issues? Probably depends on the definition of "fun". I have a nice time reading (only occasionaly entering, also because of the situation that we are right now discussing) these discussions, because they are interestiong and enriching. But I definitely do not have "fun" as in rolling on the floor laughing.
The way to have fun in serious discussions is to not take them too seriously, and to not take any arguments personally. Some people enjoy competing with words.
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On November 17 2012 02:28 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2012 02:24 jdseemoreglass wrote:On November 17 2012 02:20 KwarK wrote:On November 17 2012 02:15 jdseemoreglass wrote:On November 17 2012 02:11 KwarK wrote:On November 17 2012 02:03 jdseemoreglass wrote:On November 17 2012 01:58 KwarK wrote:On November 17 2012 01:53 jdseemoreglass wrote:On November 17 2012 01:41 KwarK wrote:On November 17 2012 01:30 jdseemoreglass wrote:
lol, all that talk about not arguing from definition, and now this... Obviously if you predefine something as homophobic then it is easy to justify eliminating it. His point is that the term is subjective.
For example, I'm assuming you think that opposing gay marriage is inherently homophobic. So does that mean no one on the site should even be allowed to debate the issue? I make a subjective judgement that something is homophobic and am empowered to act, I do not require an objective truth nor do I claim that I have found one. You still haven't worked out why your argument was a logical fallacy. I'll run it by you again. You said that because you call both a pre birth and post birth baby a baby then they are the same thing because you use the same word. It is meaningless because the definition you use for that word does not translate and therefore your conclusion, which is contained entirely within your starting premise of the definition of the word you use, is not communicated. The meaning of the word can be translated with context, obviously a debate about abortion should be a large indication of the meaning. And it's not the definition that is important here, it's an emotional argument being made. People should be allowed to make emotional arguments in a discussion about morality. You dodged my assumption about gay marriage. Safe to say it's confirmed? It would depend on the argument used. If amounted to just "they should have less rights then regular people" then sure, it'd be homophobic. JingleHell seems to think no such argument is possible. In either case, my point is made. Subjective assessments can and often are used to stifle opinions on this site. I realize the rules support that, I think the rules are wrong. What's even worse is that the subjective assessments are not even consistent from day to day or from mod to mod, which has a chilling effect on posting because people have no clue the criteria for acceptable or unacceptable posting. Fortunately it's actually quite difficult to get banned on tl for a borderline post and if mods do disagree on it then you can request that it gets discussed in the mod forum. Getting permabanned is even harder, there are people with much longer histories than you still collecting warnings and short tempbans. Obviously our view of "borderline" is pretty wide apart. I already provided several examples which appeared borderline to me and were all banned, and you thought they were all open and shut cases. Although in fairness we largely disagreed on the interpretation of some of them rather than where the line is. I read "rape is when a woman lies about consensual sex" as a denial that rape ever happens and the dismissal of all rape victims everywhere as liars who really wanted it which is a pretty disgraceful thing to say, even if you believe it. I'm assuming you interpreted the post differently rather than believing that that's a perfectly acceptable thing to say. The only reason those posts began with the words "rape is" is because the title of the thread itself was "what is rape?" With all the harping you were doing on the idea of rape culture, I think you would have been partial to banning them even if the language was clarified. If I was having a discussion on my sofa with some guys I know about what is racism in today's world and one of them went "racism is what niggers whine about when they're mad because they're too dumb to get the same jobs white guys get" then I'd ask him to leave. The fact that the question invited an opinion does not mean all opinions become acceptable.
Personally, I don't view this site as somebody's couch. I view this site as an open public forum. I think that's how it should be viewed. This site isn't only the home of the staff members, it's the home of thousands of people, amateur players, professional players, politic junkies, debate junkies, people looking for news or health information, etc. The rules should be tailored to protect both groups in certain ways.
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United States42640 Posts
On November 17 2012 02:24 opisska wrote:
But you are still consciously eluding the others' questions whether subjects like gay marriage can be discussed - and you are doing it right, because, if you accept "no homophobia" as a rule, there is no answer. Other than to ban discussion of these things altogether - because otherwise it will be just a group of people congratulating each other that they have the same good opinion. You already did that with religion (very sadly, in my opinion - TL could be one of the few places on the internet with actually reasonable religious discussion), so it is not something you wouldn't do.
We don't allow atheist only religion topics where we all bash on religion. If you see people taking advantage of the fact that we suppress religion arguments to take shots and then hide behind that rule then report it and explain it in those terms. I have banned people for that before.
Gay marriage can be discussed but if your opposition to it is purely that you don't want gays to have the same rights that straight people do then when you explain your reasoning you may fall victim to our rules against homophobia. Part of the problem here is that the gay marriage debate is a debate about denying gay people something that straight people have, there is a lot of homophobia in the opposition to it. That said, as long as it's expressed reasonably enough it will generally get a pass. I think my last homophobia ban in a debate topic was for a guy saying that gays couldn't be trusted around children which is a fairly blatant "gays molest children" post.
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United States42640 Posts
On November 17 2012 02:33 jdseemoreglass wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2012 02:28 KwarK wrote:On November 17 2012 02:24 jdseemoreglass wrote:On November 17 2012 02:20 KwarK wrote:On November 17 2012 02:15 jdseemoreglass wrote:On November 17 2012 02:11 KwarK wrote:On November 17 2012 02:03 jdseemoreglass wrote:On November 17 2012 01:58 KwarK wrote:On November 17 2012 01:53 jdseemoreglass wrote:On November 17 2012 01:41 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
I make a subjective judgement that something is homophobic and am empowered to act, I do not require an objective truth nor do I claim that I have found one.
You still haven't worked out why your argument was a logical fallacy. I'll run it by you again. You said that because you call both a pre birth and post birth baby a baby then they are the same thing because you use the same word. It is meaningless because the definition you use for that word does not translate and therefore your conclusion, which is contained entirely within your starting premise of the definition of the word you use, is not communicated. The meaning of the word can be translated with context, obviously a debate about abortion should be a large indication of the meaning. And it's not the definition that is important here, it's an emotional argument being made. People should be allowed to make emotional arguments in a discussion about morality. You dodged my assumption about gay marriage. Safe to say it's confirmed? It would depend on the argument used. If amounted to just "they should have less rights then regular people" then sure, it'd be homophobic. JingleHell seems to think no such argument is possible. In either case, my point is made. Subjective assessments can and often are used to stifle opinions on this site. I realize the rules support that, I think the rules are wrong. What's even worse is that the subjective assessments are not even consistent from day to day or from mod to mod, which has a chilling effect on posting because people have no clue the criteria for acceptable or unacceptable posting. Fortunately it's actually quite difficult to get banned on tl for a borderline post and if mods do disagree on it then you can request that it gets discussed in the mod forum. Getting permabanned is even harder, there are people with much longer histories than you still collecting warnings and short tempbans. Obviously our view of "borderline" is pretty wide apart. I already provided several examples which appeared borderline to me and were all banned, and you thought they were all open and shut cases. Although in fairness we largely disagreed on the interpretation of some of them rather than where the line is. I read "rape is when a woman lies about consensual sex" as a denial that rape ever happens and the dismissal of all rape victims everywhere as liars who really wanted it which is a pretty disgraceful thing to say, even if you believe it. I'm assuming you interpreted the post differently rather than believing that that's a perfectly acceptable thing to say. The only reason those posts began with the words "rape is" is because the title of the thread itself was "what is rape?" With all the harping you were doing on the idea of rape culture, I think you would have been partial to banning them even if the language was clarified. If I was having a discussion on my sofa with some guys I know about what is racism in today's world and one of them went "racism is what niggers whine about when they're mad because they're too dumb to get the same jobs white guys get" then I'd ask him to leave. The fact that the question invited an opinion does not mean all opinions become acceptable. Personally, I don't view this site as somebody's couch. I view this site as an open public forum. I think that's how it should be viewed. This site isn't only the home of the staff members, it's the home of thousands of people, amateur players, professional players, politic junkies, debate junkies, people looking for news or health information, etc. The rules should be tailored to protect both groups in certain ways.
You can view it however you like but it doesn't make it so. I believe Naz and Meat still own this site and they empower the moderators to enforce the rules as they see fit.
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On November 17 2012 02:24 Praetorial wrote:
opisska, JD, yea.
It's dumb. It's dumb since homophobia is unquestionably bad.
And like Jingle pointed out, the same people who are homophobic that always refer to a fetus as "baby".
thats an incredibly stupid thing to say. if you actually think that people who refer to a fetus as a "baby" are homophobic, you are a moron.
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United States42640 Posts
On November 17 2012 02:57 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2012 02:24 Praetorial wrote:
opisska, JD, yea.
It's dumb. It's dumb since homophobia is unquestionably bad.
And like Jingle pointed out, the same people who are homophobic that always refer to a fetus as "baby". thats an incredibly stupid thing to say. if you actually think that people who refer to a fetus as a "baby" are homophobic, you are a moron.
I think he was suggesting they correlate rather than one means the other.
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Actually gene pointed that part of it out, I pointed to a different connection. Both of us made it clear we were talking about a general rule overall, not referring to individuals.
And yes, a huge portion of the pro-life crowd is also anti-gay.
Trust me, as an ex-Army, gun owning, pro-choice, pro-gay marriage type myself, I'm more than aware that not everyone follows a party line 100%.
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On November 17 2012 03:00 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2012 02:57 dAPhREAk wrote:On November 17 2012 02:24 Praetorial wrote:
opisska, JD, yea.
It's dumb. It's dumb since homophobia is unquestionably bad.
And like Jingle pointed out, the same people who are homophobic that always refer to a fetus as "baby". thats an incredibly stupid thing to say. if you actually think that people who refer to a fetus as a "baby" are homophobic, you are a moron. I think he was suggesting they correlate rather than one means the other.
not even sure its a correlation since (outside of medical, legal, philosophical, etc. discussion), people refer to unborn children as babies routinely, including pro-choicers. fetus is the exception, not the norm in common parlance. if you want to correlate homophobia with pro-lifers, i'll give you that. making absurd, broad generalizations is stupid.
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On November 17 2012 01:43 Gene wrote:
It suddenly strikes me as ironic that the proponents of assigning rights to unborn children has a decent correlation to those hoping to keep rights away from homosexuals.
Edit : I don't mean to speak of any of you. Honest. Just an observation of the country at large.
There's the original wording. Prae paraphrased a bit, but retained the original concept, and misplaced the original source.
I'd say if you try to turn that into an insult towards me or gene, you have no room to talk. Or Prae, really, because he was paraphrasing and didn't sacrifice intent.
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On November 17 2012 02:24 opisska wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2012 01:59 KwarK wrote:On November 17 2012 01:52 opisska wrote:On November 17 2012 01:23 KwarK wrote:On November 17 2012 00:26 opisska wrote:
I can't really blame him personally, he just does, what the society does. When the state does this to you, it feels kinda natural to do it to others, doesn't it? Most of the Europe has laws that dictate how certain parts of history happened. But if "homophobia" (whatever that is) is not welcome here, that should be probably right in the rules and explainet thoroughly, because, surprise, KwarK's idea on what is homophobia is not everyones. There appears to be a misunderstanding here. You are not a citizen in a society, you are a guest in our house. If a guest came into my house and started spouting offensive homophobic bullshit on my sofa I'd ask him to leave. The same applies. You are owed no freedoms or privileges although we do attempt to create a friendly environment. Homophobia is against the rules as stated in the 10 commandments and the moderating staff are empowered to judge what falls under that category at their discretion. It is a breach of the rules, no matter how sincerely homophobic you are. This is your answer to anything. Whereas it is a logically sound answer, it serves no purpose. What is the point of "Website feedback" when you don't want to hear it? To have a waste bin to dump annoying complainers out of the sidebar? Hey, I am not telling you "you can't impose the rules you bloody censor". Becuase THAT whould really be silly. Instead, I am telling you "look, your rules are neither clear nor reasonable. why don't you think about it for moment. you are a discussion forum, wouldn't the discussion be better if it was actually allowed to discuss these matters or at least the rules were clear about what is allowed"? Because THAT is called feedback. You are doing something - running a discussion forum - and I as a user of your service, I telling you, what issues I see with the service. For the record, the 10 commandements post shows no results on search strings "gay", "homo", "LGBT" or "minor" so I would assume that I really did not miss it and there actually is nothing about homophobia. You just see it implied in a general sentence, but what I have been trying to tell you for a pretty long time is that not everyone does. Yes, "this is our house" covers everything. But why do you even have any other rules then? Why is the forum even publicly accessible? I don't see any point in having such a forum other than fostering an enviroment for open discussion. Apologies, there used to be a rule that explained - Racist remarks will be shot down and you will be lynched.
- Homophobic comments will get shoved way up your ass.
- Sexist remarks of any kind whatsoever will be dealt with especially harshly. Yeah, we have female members – and we sure as hell would like to keep them!
- DO NOT POST ANYTHING IN ALL CAPS IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU’RE SCREAMING LIKE A RAVING LUNATIC AND WE WILL BE FORCED TO TREAT YOU LIKE ONE AAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!
- Post your topics in the appropriate forum. We have separate forums for a reason. Use your head and post under the forum that’s most relevant.
- Don't be an attention whore and give away the results of games, sporting events, movie endings, etc. in the title of the thread/post. Also, if you're going to reveal stuff in the body of your post, then be decent enough to put a "spoiler" warning in advance.
- Be very careful about resuscitating old threads. Sometimes it's ok, but sometimes it's not.
- Don’t know? Use the search function. It’s better than Google and it works because whatever questions you may have, chances are we’ve already discussed it before ad nauseum. Did a search already and you still don’t know? Ask politely! The explicit ban from homophobic, sexist and racist comments has been removed but there has been, to my knowledge, no change in policy. I can look into it if you'd like. OK, that solves one part of the misunderstanding. But you are still consciously eluding the others' questions whether subjects like gay marriage can be discussed - and you are doing it right, because, if you accept "no homophobia" as a rule, there is no answer. Other than to ban discussion of these things altogether - because otherwise it will be just a group of people congratulating each other that they have the same good opinion. You already did that with religion (very sadly, in my opinion - TL could be one of the few places on the internet with actually reasonable religious discussion), so it is not something you wouldn't do. Show nested quote +On November 17 2012 02:01 JingleHell wrote:It also falls under the blanket rule in #10 involving having fun without detracting from other's fun, I'd assume. 10. THOU SHALL HAVE FUN
It's a fun site with fun people. Have fun with it. Enjoy it. Make others happy. Be happy. Avoid being negative. We don't expect you to be Pollyanna, but users who are consistently negative will draw the ire of their peers and site staff alike. No one likes people who have nothing but bad things to say all the time. Heed the admonition of Oscar Wilde: some people bring happiness wherever they go, others whenever they go. This is actually another absurd rule. How actually can you have "fun" in discussing serious issues? Probably depends on the definition of "fun". I have a nice time reading (only occasionaly entering, also because of the situation that we are right now discussing) these discussions, because they are interestiong and enriching. But I definitely do not have "fun" as in rolling on the floor laughing.
kwark can correct me if im wrong, but they are going to ban you for hate speech. they are not going to ban you because you're a homophobe. if you go into a thread and say "fuck gays, i hope you all burn in hell" then you're going to get banned. if you go into a proper thread and say "i dont believe in gay marriage because A,B,C" then you're not going to get banned because if you present yourself in a reasonable manner (despite potentially being homophobic) the posts will be allowed.
if you are arguing, you should be allowed to spread hate speech throughout tl.net, go fuck yourself you piece of shit! (see how unproductive that is). however, if you are arguing that homophobic views should be allowed in a reasonable manner (and reasonable place, dont go into the gay starcraft players thread), then i think they will allow it.
edit: actually kwark said it above. i missed it. nm
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On November 17 2012 03:14 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2012 02:24 opisska wrote:On November 17 2012 01:59 KwarK wrote:On November 17 2012 01:52 opisska wrote:On November 17 2012 01:23 KwarK wrote:On November 17 2012 00:26 opisska wrote:
I can't really blame him personally, he just does, what the society does. When the state does this to you, it feels kinda natural to do it to others, doesn't it? Most of the Europe has laws that dictate how certain parts of history happened. But if "homophobia" (whatever that is) is not welcome here, that should be probably right in the rules and explainet thoroughly, because, surprise, KwarK's idea on what is homophobia is not everyones. There appears to be a misunderstanding here. You are not a citizen in a society, you are a guest in our house. If a guest came into my house and started spouting offensive homophobic bullshit on my sofa I'd ask him to leave. The same applies. You are owed no freedoms or privileges although we do attempt to create a friendly environment. Homophobia is against the rules as stated in the 10 commandments and the moderating staff are empowered to judge what falls under that category at their discretion. It is a breach of the rules, no matter how sincerely homophobic you are. This is your answer to anything. Whereas it is a logically sound answer, it serves no purpose. What is the point of "Website feedback" when you don't want to hear it? To have a waste bin to dump annoying complainers out of the sidebar? Hey, I am not telling you "you can't impose the rules you bloody censor". Becuase THAT whould really be silly. Instead, I am telling you "look, your rules are neither clear nor reasonable. why don't you think about it for moment. you are a discussion forum, wouldn't the discussion be better if it was actually allowed to discuss these matters or at least the rules were clear about what is allowed"? Because THAT is called feedback. You are doing something - running a discussion forum - and I as a user of your service, I telling you, what issues I see with the service. For the record, the 10 commandements post shows no results on search strings "gay", "homo", "LGBT" or "minor" so I would assume that I really did not miss it and there actually is nothing about homophobia. You just see it implied in a general sentence, but what I have been trying to tell you for a pretty long time is that not everyone does. Yes, "this is our house" covers everything. But why do you even have any other rules then? Why is the forum even publicly accessible? I don't see any point in having such a forum other than fostering an enviroment for open discussion. Apologies, there used to be a rule that explained - Racist remarks will be shot down and you will be lynched.
- Homophobic comments will get shoved way up your ass.
- Sexist remarks of any kind whatsoever will be dealt with especially harshly. Yeah, we have female members – and we sure as hell would like to keep them!
- DO NOT POST ANYTHING IN ALL CAPS IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU’RE SCREAMING LIKE A RAVING LUNATIC AND WE WILL BE FORCED TO TREAT YOU LIKE ONE AAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!
- Post your topics in the appropriate forum. We have separate forums for a reason. Use your head and post under the forum that’s most relevant.
- Don't be an attention whore and give away the results of games, sporting events, movie endings, etc. in the title of the thread/post. Also, if you're going to reveal stuff in the body of your post, then be decent enough to put a "spoiler" warning in advance.
- Be very careful about resuscitating old threads. Sometimes it's ok, but sometimes it's not.
- Don’t know? Use the search function. It’s better than Google and it works because whatever questions you may have, chances are we’ve already discussed it before ad nauseum. Did a search already and you still don’t know? Ask politely! The explicit ban from homophobic, sexist and racist comments has been removed but there has been, to my knowledge, no change in policy. I can look into it if you'd like. OK, that solves one part of the misunderstanding. But you are still consciously eluding the others' questions whether subjects like gay marriage can be discussed - and you are doing it right, because, if you accept "no homophobia" as a rule, there is no answer. Other than to ban discussion of these things altogether - because otherwise it will be just a group of people congratulating each other that they have the same good opinion. You already did that with religion (very sadly, in my opinion - TL could be one of the few places on the internet with actually reasonable religious discussion), so it is not something you wouldn't do. On November 17 2012 02:01 JingleHell wrote:It also falls under the blanket rule in #10 involving having fun without detracting from other's fun, I'd assume. 10. THOU SHALL HAVE FUN
It's a fun site with fun people. Have fun with it. Enjoy it. Make others happy. Be happy. Avoid being negative. We don't expect you to be Pollyanna, but users who are consistently negative will draw the ire of their peers and site staff alike. No one likes people who have nothing but bad things to say all the time. Heed the admonition of Oscar Wilde: some people bring happiness wherever they go, others whenever they go. This is actually another absurd rule. How actually can you have "fun" in discussing serious issues? Probably depends on the definition of "fun". I have a nice time reading (only occasionaly entering, also because of the situation that we are right now discussing) these discussions, because they are interestiong and enriching. But I definitely do not have "fun" as in rolling on the floor laughing. kwark can correct me if im wrong, but they are going to ban you for hate speech. they are not going to ban you because you're a homophobe. if you go into a thread and say "fuck gays, i hope you all burn in hell" then you're going to get banned. if you go into a proper thread and say "i dont believe in gay marriage because A,B,C" then you're not going to get banned because if you present yourself in a reasonable manner (despite potentially being homophobic) the posts will be allowed. if you are arguing, you should be allowed to spread hate speech throughout tl.net, go fuck yourself you piece of shit! (see how unproductive that is). however, if you are arguing that homophobic views should be allowed in a reasonable manner (and reasonable place, dont go into the gay starcraft players thread), then i think they will allow it.
Assuming that your A, B, and C aren't inherently homophobic or linked to hate speech, that's generally the trend, yes.
Obvious example being the "slippery slope" from gay marriage to pedophilia or bestiality argument.
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On November 17 2012 03:19 JingleHell wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2012 03:14 dAPhREAk wrote:On November 17 2012 02:24 opisska wrote:On November 17 2012 01:59 KwarK wrote:On November 17 2012 01:52 opisska wrote:On November 17 2012 01:23 KwarK wrote:On November 17 2012 00:26 opisska wrote:
I can't really blame him personally, he just does, what the society does. When the state does this to you, it feels kinda natural to do it to others, doesn't it? Most of the Europe has laws that dictate how certain parts of history happened. But if "homophobia" (whatever that is) is not welcome here, that should be probably right in the rules and explainet thoroughly, because, surprise, KwarK's idea on what is homophobia is not everyones. There appears to be a misunderstanding here. You are not a citizen in a society, you are a guest in our house. If a guest came into my house and started spouting offensive homophobic bullshit on my sofa I'd ask him to leave. The same applies. You are owed no freedoms or privileges although we do attempt to create a friendly environment. Homophobia is against the rules as stated in the 10 commandments and the moderating staff are empowered to judge what falls under that category at their discretion. It is a breach of the rules, no matter how sincerely homophobic you are. This is your answer to anything. Whereas it is a logically sound answer, it serves no purpose. What is the point of "Website feedback" when you don't want to hear it? To have a waste bin to dump annoying complainers out of the sidebar? Hey, I am not telling you "you can't impose the rules you bloody censor". Becuase THAT whould really be silly. Instead, I am telling you "look, your rules are neither clear nor reasonable. why don't you think about it for moment. you are a discussion forum, wouldn't the discussion be better if it was actually allowed to discuss these matters or at least the rules were clear about what is allowed"? Because THAT is called feedback. You are doing something - running a discussion forum - and I as a user of your service, I telling you, what issues I see with the service. For the record, the 10 commandements post shows no results on search strings "gay", "homo", "LGBT" or "minor" so I would assume that I really did not miss it and there actually is nothing about homophobia. You just see it implied in a general sentence, but what I have been trying to tell you for a pretty long time is that not everyone does. Yes, "this is our house" covers everything. But why do you even have any other rules then? Why is the forum even publicly accessible? I don't see any point in having such a forum other than fostering an enviroment for open discussion. Apologies, there used to be a rule that explained - Racist remarks will be shot down and you will be lynched.
- Homophobic comments will get shoved way up your ass.
- Sexist remarks of any kind whatsoever will be dealt with especially harshly. Yeah, we have female members – and we sure as hell would like to keep them!
- DO NOT POST ANYTHING IN ALL CAPS IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU’RE SCREAMING LIKE A RAVING LUNATIC AND WE WILL BE FORCED TO TREAT YOU LIKE ONE AAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!
- Post your topics in the appropriate forum. We have separate forums for a reason. Use your head and post under the forum that’s most relevant.
- Don't be an attention whore and give away the results of games, sporting events, movie endings, etc. in the title of the thread/post. Also, if you're going to reveal stuff in the body of your post, then be decent enough to put a "spoiler" warning in advance.
- Be very careful about resuscitating old threads. Sometimes it's ok, but sometimes it's not.
- Don’t know? Use the search function. It’s better than Google and it works because whatever questions you may have, chances are we’ve already discussed it before ad nauseum. Did a search already and you still don’t know? Ask politely! The explicit ban from homophobic, sexist and racist comments has been removed but there has been, to my knowledge, no change in policy. I can look into it if you'd like. OK, that solves one part of the misunderstanding. But you are still consciously eluding the others' questions whether subjects like gay marriage can be discussed - and you are doing it right, because, if you accept "no homophobia" as a rule, there is no answer. Other than to ban discussion of these things altogether - because otherwise it will be just a group of people congratulating each other that they have the same good opinion. You already did that with religion (very sadly, in my opinion - TL could be one of the few places on the internet with actually reasonable religious discussion), so it is not something you wouldn't do. On November 17 2012 02:01 JingleHell wrote:It also falls under the blanket rule in #10 involving having fun without detracting from other's fun, I'd assume. 10. THOU SHALL HAVE FUN
It's a fun site with fun people. Have fun with it. Enjoy it. Make others happy. Be happy. Avoid being negative. We don't expect you to be Pollyanna, but users who are consistently negative will draw the ire of their peers and site staff alike. No one likes people who have nothing but bad things to say all the time. Heed the admonition of Oscar Wilde: some people bring happiness wherever they go, others whenever they go. This is actually another absurd rule. How actually can you have "fun" in discussing serious issues? Probably depends on the definition of "fun". I have a nice time reading (only occasionaly entering, also because of the situation that we are right now discussing) these discussions, because they are interestiong and enriching. But I definitely do not have "fun" as in rolling on the floor laughing. kwark can correct me if im wrong, but they are going to ban you for hate speech. they are not going to ban you because you're a homophobe. if you go into a thread and say "fuck gays, i hope you all burn in hell" then you're going to get banned. if you go into a proper thread and say "i dont believe in gay marriage because A,B,C" then you're not going to get banned because if you present yourself in a reasonable manner (despite potentially being homophobic) the posts will be allowed. if you are arguing, you should be allowed to spread hate speech throughout tl.net, go fuck yourself you piece of shit! (see how unproductive that is). however, if you are arguing that homophobic views should be allowed in a reasonable manner (and reasonable place, dont go into the gay starcraft players thread), then i think they will allow it. Assuming that your A, B, and C aren't inherently homophobic or linked to hate speech, that's generally the trend, yes. Obvious example being the "slippery slope" from gay marriage to pedophilia or bestiality argument.
why do you jump to the extremes so much? its hard to take you seriously. i dont know a single anti-gay marriage individual who thinks homosexuality is linked to pedophilia or beastiality. indeed, this is the first time i have even heard of beastiality in the same sentence as homoesexuality. wtf man.
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if you go into a proper thread and say "i dont believe in gay marriage because A,B,C" then you're not going to get banned because if you present yourself in a reasonable manner (despite potentially being homophobic) the posts will be allowed.
Sometimes they will be allowed, sometimes they won't be allowed. Kwark has already argued it doesn't matter how reasonable people try to be if they are wrong in his eyes.
On November 17 2012 03:22 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2012 03:19 JingleHell wrote:On November 17 2012 03:14 dAPhREAk wrote:On November 17 2012 02:24 opisska wrote:On November 17 2012 01:59 KwarK wrote:On November 17 2012 01:52 opisska wrote:On November 17 2012 01:23 KwarK wrote:On November 17 2012 00:26 opisska wrote:
I can't really blame him personally, he just does, what the society does. When the state does this to you, it feels kinda natural to do it to others, doesn't it? Most of the Europe has laws that dictate how certain parts of history happened. But if "homophobia" (whatever that is) is not welcome here, that should be probably right in the rules and explainet thoroughly, because, surprise, KwarK's idea on what is homophobia is not everyones. There appears to be a misunderstanding here. You are not a citizen in a society, you are a guest in our house. If a guest came into my house and started spouting offensive homophobic bullshit on my sofa I'd ask him to leave. The same applies. You are owed no freedoms or privileges although we do attempt to create a friendly environment. Homophobia is against the rules as stated in the 10 commandments and the moderating staff are empowered to judge what falls under that category at their discretion. It is a breach of the rules, no matter how sincerely homophobic you are. This is your answer to anything. Whereas it is a logically sound answer, it serves no purpose. What is the point of "Website feedback" when you don't want to hear it? To have a waste bin to dump annoying complainers out of the sidebar? Hey, I am not telling you "you can't impose the rules you bloody censor". Becuase THAT whould really be silly. Instead, I am telling you "look, your rules are neither clear nor reasonable. why don't you think about it for moment. you are a discussion forum, wouldn't the discussion be better if it was actually allowed to discuss these matters or at least the rules were clear about what is allowed"? Because THAT is called feedback. You are doing something - running a discussion forum - and I as a user of your service, I telling you, what issues I see with the service. For the record, the 10 commandements post shows no results on search strings "gay", "homo", "LGBT" or "minor" so I would assume that I really did not miss it and there actually is nothing about homophobia. You just see it implied in a general sentence, but what I have been trying to tell you for a pretty long time is that not everyone does. Yes, "this is our house" covers everything. But why do you even have any other rules then? Why is the forum even publicly accessible? I don't see any point in having such a forum other than fostering an enviroment for open discussion. Apologies, there used to be a rule that explained - Racist remarks will be shot down and you will be lynched.
- Homophobic comments will get shoved way up your ass.
- Sexist remarks of any kind whatsoever will be dealt with especially harshly. Yeah, we have female members – and we sure as hell would like to keep them!
- DO NOT POST ANYTHING IN ALL CAPS IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU’RE SCREAMING LIKE A RAVING LUNATIC AND WE WILL BE FORCED TO TREAT YOU LIKE ONE AAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!
- Post your topics in the appropriate forum. We have separate forums for a reason. Use your head and post under the forum that’s most relevant.
- Don't be an attention whore and give away the results of games, sporting events, movie endings, etc. in the title of the thread/post. Also, if you're going to reveal stuff in the body of your post, then be decent enough to put a "spoiler" warning in advance.
- Be very careful about resuscitating old threads. Sometimes it's ok, but sometimes it's not.
- Don’t know? Use the search function. It’s better than Google and it works because whatever questions you may have, chances are we’ve already discussed it before ad nauseum. Did a search already and you still don’t know? Ask politely! The explicit ban from homophobic, sexist and racist comments has been removed but there has been, to my knowledge, no change in policy. I can look into it if you'd like. OK, that solves one part of the misunderstanding. But you are still consciously eluding the others' questions whether subjects like gay marriage can be discussed - and you are doing it right, because, if you accept "no homophobia" as a rule, there is no answer. Other than to ban discussion of these things altogether - because otherwise it will be just a group of people congratulating each other that they have the same good opinion. You already did that with religion (very sadly, in my opinion - TL could be one of the few places on the internet with actually reasonable religious discussion), so it is not something you wouldn't do. On November 17 2012 02:01 JingleHell wrote:It also falls under the blanket rule in #10 involving having fun without detracting from other's fun, I'd assume. 10. THOU SHALL HAVE FUN
It's a fun site with fun people. Have fun with it. Enjoy it. Make others happy. Be happy. Avoid being negative. We don't expect you to be Pollyanna, but users who are consistently negative will draw the ire of their peers and site staff alike. No one likes people who have nothing but bad things to say all the time. Heed the admonition of Oscar Wilde: some people bring happiness wherever they go, others whenever they go. This is actually another absurd rule. How actually can you have "fun" in discussing serious issues? Probably depends on the definition of "fun". I have a nice time reading (only occasionaly entering, also because of the situation that we are right now discussing) these discussions, because they are interestiong and enriching. But I definitely do not have "fun" as in rolling on the floor laughing. kwark can correct me if im wrong, but they are going to ban you for hate speech. they are not going to ban you because you're a homophobe. if you go into a thread and say "fuck gays, i hope you all burn in hell" then you're going to get banned. if you go into a proper thread and say "i dont believe in gay marriage because A,B,C" then you're not going to get banned because if you present yourself in a reasonable manner (despite potentially being homophobic) the posts will be allowed. if you are arguing, you should be allowed to spread hate speech throughout tl.net, go fuck yourself you piece of shit! (see how unproductive that is). however, if you are arguing that homophobic views should be allowed in a reasonable manner (and reasonable place, dont go into the gay starcraft players thread), then i think they will allow it. Assuming that your A, B, and C aren't inherently homophobic or linked to hate speech, that's generally the trend, yes. Obvious example being the "slippery slope" from gay marriage to pedophilia or bestiality argument. why do you jump to the extremes so much? its hard to take you seriously. i dont know a single anti-gay marriage individual who thinks homosexuality is linked to pedophilia or beastiality. indeed, this is the first time i have even heard of beastiality in the same sentence as homoesexuality. wtf man.
Nobody links the two. People simply ask where the marriage line should be drawn, and the standard straw man response is that this is claiming homosexuality and pedophilia or beastiality are somehow correlated.
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United States42640 Posts
On November 17 2012 03:24 jdseemoreglass wrote:Show nested quote +if you go into a proper thread and say "i dont believe in gay marriage because A,B,C" then you're not going to get banned because if you present yourself in a reasonable manner (despite potentially being homophobic) the posts will be allowed. Sometimes they will be allowed, sometimes they won't be allowed. Kwark has already argued it doesn't matter how reasonable people try to be if they are wrong in his eyes. Show nested quote +On November 17 2012 03:22 dAPhREAk wrote:On November 17 2012 03:19 JingleHell wrote:On November 17 2012 03:14 dAPhREAk wrote:On November 17 2012 02:24 opisska wrote:On November 17 2012 01:59 KwarK wrote:On November 17 2012 01:52 opisska wrote:On November 17 2012 01:23 KwarK wrote:On November 17 2012 00:26 opisska wrote:
I can't really blame him personally, he just does, what the society does. When the state does this to you, it feels kinda natural to do it to others, doesn't it? Most of the Europe has laws that dictate how certain parts of history happened. But if "homophobia" (whatever that is) is not welcome here, that should be probably right in the rules and explainet thoroughly, because, surprise, KwarK's idea on what is homophobia is not everyones. There appears to be a misunderstanding here. You are not a citizen in a society, you are a guest in our house. If a guest came into my house and started spouting offensive homophobic bullshit on my sofa I'd ask him to leave. The same applies. You are owed no freedoms or privileges although we do attempt to create a friendly environment. Homophobia is against the rules as stated in the 10 commandments and the moderating staff are empowered to judge what falls under that category at their discretion. It is a breach of the rules, no matter how sincerely homophobic you are. This is your answer to anything. Whereas it is a logically sound answer, it serves no purpose. What is the point of "Website feedback" when you don't want to hear it? To have a waste bin to dump annoying complainers out of the sidebar? Hey, I am not telling you "you can't impose the rules you bloody censor". Becuase THAT whould really be silly. Instead, I am telling you "look, your rules are neither clear nor reasonable. why don't you think about it for moment. you are a discussion forum, wouldn't the discussion be better if it was actually allowed to discuss these matters or at least the rules were clear about what is allowed"? Because THAT is called feedback. You are doing something - running a discussion forum - and I as a user of your service, I telling you, what issues I see with the service. For the record, the 10 commandements post shows no results on search strings "gay", "homo", "LGBT" or "minor" so I would assume that I really did not miss it and there actually is nothing about homophobia. You just see it implied in a general sentence, but what I have been trying to tell you for a pretty long time is that not everyone does. Yes, "this is our house" covers everything. But why do you even have any other rules then? Why is the forum even publicly accessible? I don't see any point in having such a forum other than fostering an enviroment for open discussion. Apologies, there used to be a rule that explained - Racist remarks will be shot down and you will be lynched.
- Homophobic comments will get shoved way up your ass.
- Sexist remarks of any kind whatsoever will be dealt with especially harshly. Yeah, we have female members – and we sure as hell would like to keep them!
- DO NOT POST ANYTHING IN ALL CAPS IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU’RE SCREAMING LIKE A RAVING LUNATIC AND WE WILL BE FORCED TO TREAT YOU LIKE ONE AAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!
- Post your topics in the appropriate forum. We have separate forums for a reason. Use your head and post under the forum that’s most relevant.
- Don't be an attention whore and give away the results of games, sporting events, movie endings, etc. in the title of the thread/post. Also, if you're going to reveal stuff in the body of your post, then be decent enough to put a "spoiler" warning in advance.
- Be very careful about resuscitating old threads. Sometimes it's ok, but sometimes it's not.
- Don’t know? Use the search function. It’s better than Google and it works because whatever questions you may have, chances are we’ve already discussed it before ad nauseum. Did a search already and you still don’t know? Ask politely! The explicit ban from homophobic, sexist and racist comments has been removed but there has been, to my knowledge, no change in policy. I can look into it if you'd like. OK, that solves one part of the misunderstanding. But you are still consciously eluding the others' questions whether subjects like gay marriage can be discussed - and you are doing it right, because, if you accept "no homophobia" as a rule, there is no answer. Other than to ban discussion of these things altogether - because otherwise it will be just a group of people congratulating each other that they have the same good opinion. You already did that with religion (very sadly, in my opinion - TL could be one of the few places on the internet with actually reasonable religious discussion), so it is not something you wouldn't do. On November 17 2012 02:01 JingleHell wrote:It also falls under the blanket rule in #10 involving having fun without detracting from other's fun, I'd assume. 10. THOU SHALL HAVE FUN
It's a fun site with fun people. Have fun with it. Enjoy it. Make others happy. Be happy. Avoid being negative. We don't expect you to be Pollyanna, but users who are consistently negative will draw the ire of their peers and site staff alike. No one likes people who have nothing but bad things to say all the time. Heed the admonition of Oscar Wilde: some people bring happiness wherever they go, others whenever they go. This is actually another absurd rule. How actually can you have "fun" in discussing serious issues? Probably depends on the definition of "fun". I have a nice time reading (only occasionaly entering, also because of the situation that we are right now discussing) these discussions, because they are interestiong and enriching. But I definitely do not have "fun" as in rolling on the floor laughing. kwark can correct me if im wrong, but they are going to ban you for hate speech. they are not going to ban you because you're a homophobe. if you go into a thread and say "fuck gays, i hope you all burn in hell" then you're going to get banned. if you go into a proper thread and say "i dont believe in gay marriage because A,B,C" then you're not going to get banned because if you present yourself in a reasonable manner (despite potentially being homophobic) the posts will be allowed. if you are arguing, you should be allowed to spread hate speech throughout tl.net, go fuck yourself you piece of shit! (see how unproductive that is). however, if you are arguing that homophobic views should be allowed in a reasonable manner (and reasonable place, dont go into the gay starcraft players thread), then i think they will allow it. Assuming that your A, B, and C aren't inherently homophobic or linked to hate speech, that's generally the trend, yes. Obvious example being the "slippery slope" from gay marriage to pedophilia or bestiality argument. why do you jump to the extremes so much? its hard to take you seriously. i dont know a single anti-gay marriage individual who thinks homosexuality is linked to pedophilia or beastiality. indeed, this is the first time i have even heard of beastiality in the same sentence as homoesexuality. wtf man. Nobody links the two. People simply ask where the marriage line should be drawn, and the standard straw man response is that this is claiming homosexuality and pedophilia or beastiality are somehow correlated.
I'm afraid that is not the case. People have been linking homosexuality with pederasty for generations. It's pretty much the oldest negative stereotype applied to homosexuals, that they're deviants looking to rape your kids. It's still used and it's still believed by some homophobes.
Regarding when it is allowed and when it isn't, you are correct that it is a subjective judgement by the moderator. Politeness doesn't hurt but it won't shield you if the crux of your argument is "gays should be treated as second class citizens because they're gay".
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