EPTCrackdown on bad Tech Support Advice... - Page 4
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mahnini
United States6862 Posts
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Deleted User 135096
3624 Posts
On June 23 2012 02:25 TheToast wrote: Yeah me as well. But if people aren't even going to read the OP then there's a limit to what we can do. I'll say it again, I like helping people but at some point they have to help themselves too. Idk though maybe they're just missing it. Mahini, could you maybe add a mod note to the CB thread making sure people have seen the questions in the OP? If they still post without all the detail, then it's their own damn fault if they get bad advice. I see I'm a little late to the party here. To just re-emphasize I suppose from things that many have said already, I have found that recently I have become more than a little fatigued trying to answer basic questions to stuff that is easily accessible on TL to users. My technical expertise is very limited to very few areas, mice being once of them, and a lot of us have frequented and given lots of advice and help in the thread by TheToast. I've been noticing recently that other than myself, TheToast, JingleHell, IPSBlue, Medrea and others who used to frequent that thread (and gave pretty good advice) haven't been seen in a good long while, and I wonder if it's because we keep answering the same questions over and over, and over... Many of us have taken a lot of time to explain things to everyone so they shouldn't be asking these questions. I spent six months on a comprehensive write-up on the topic for instance, though admittedly it was for more than just TL, and recently I have found that I'm starting to get really disheartened that people aren't reading the OP of even TheToasts thread anymore, which leads to posts like this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=174311¤tpage=70#1396. There's so much cringingly bad misinformation in this post, notably in the third paragraph that I reported it. Also, in that thread there's a questionaire and almost 9/10 times the answer to the angle snapping question is "lolwut?". I'm not asking you to read my entire 17 thousand word article, but you can easily get to the angle snapping section in my thread and read up about it in under 2 minutes, is that so hard? I guess mainly I'm personally feeling fatigued after working so hard to help people understand things better and a lot of people just aren't reading things. And I would surmise by the sound of everyone else this is present in the entirety of the tech support forum. On June 20 2012 03:36 semantics wrote: I'm one of the reasons that blue posters (a la strat forum) would be very, very bad. I can give excellent advice about mice in general, but ask me about OC'ing and memory timings I would be about as bad as the common rabble in giving solid advice. I seem to remember there being an idea to introduce tech expertise icons or the like which might be a decent solution for specializations but idk.Why not just have highlighted posters instead of a dedicated tech support mod, avoid any ethical issues dealing with banning people based on dangerous ignorance and just have people who are willing and able to properly refute bad advice in threads. If everyone was so knowledgeable and able to report bad tech advice to the mod it would be a viable solution, else it's just easier to appoint a few people who have highlighted posts in tech support forum. Anyways tech support is quite trying, you can find people who are good with hardware price/performance, people who are good with hardmods, people who know software and then the whole mix of other subjects that occur in a tech support forum. Anyways the vast amount of tech support in forums ends up like this: http://xkcd.com/979/ | ||
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JingleHell
United States11308 Posts
My biggest issue with the concept of highlighting comes into play in troubleshooting type things, where if a highlighted poster comes in after 5-6 suggestions, and throws in a couple of things that haven't been mentioned yet, it could cause trouble if the person needing help is only looking at the highlighted suggestions, and skips over the other things, even though the highlighted poster was actually suggesting along with, and not as opposed to. | ||
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Deleted User 135096
3624 Posts
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JingleHell
United States11308 Posts
Must say, while it's nice to see something like this happen, I still think drive-by moderation in Tech is a terrible idea. Nice to see it actually land on the people who really cause the problems, but getting rid of it entirely is better. | ||
Falling
Canada11350 Posts
I still think drive-by moderation in Tech is a terrible idea Also found in ABL thread. Much love to the ProPoster, but the last thing Tech needs is more drive-by modding. Don't call for it. You really seem to have your nose out of joint with what moderation that has been done. | ||
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JingleHell
United States11308 Posts
On June 27 2012 08:25 Falling wrote: Also found in ABL thread. You really seem to have your nose out of joint with what moderation that has been done. I've never made a secret of my feelings about modding in Tech support. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=218677#11 On June 15 2011 01:27 JingleHell wrote: Ok, I hate to say it, but this is getting ridiculous. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=233402 Didn't read the sticky guide, or he'd at least know what information needs to exist. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=233377 Didn't even try to search. Factor in people making anywhere up to five separate threads for one PC build, advice ranging from moronic to malicious, something needs to happen. And if someone says "report it" I'll go ballistic. I lost my report button because people who don't understand the difference between good and bad advice are, for some reason, responding to reports in Tech Support and not doing anything about the stuff, so I was determined to be reporting too much. Yet my blog post publicly mocking the same idiocy gets spotlighted... On June 22 2011 11:19 JingleHell wrote: I hate having to bump this thread again, but this topic doesn't seem to be getting the needed love. Stupid advice that can cost people a fortune, damage PC's, or cost a ton of time in reformats, along with people not bothering to even scan the front page, let alone search, lost me my report button. But tell somebody it's stupid to talk about marketing projections like they're going to happen, and red text is all over the place? If the issue doesn't get fixed, people will keep complaining, or give up completely. And if they give up completely, Tech Support goes to hell in a handbasket anyways. Aside from mahnini in IRC, I haven't seen any mods actually willing to discuss my points on this, but apparently my attitude sucks, right? The question is, does it suck because I'm wrong (feel free to show me why), or is my attitude causing hard feelings because I'm actually right? | ||
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Falling
Canada11350 Posts
I agree there's a problem, but there's places to voice it and I don't think ABL thread is one of those places. Basically my round about way of saying what I say to newbie TL users "If you have a problem with TL moderation, take it to website feedback" | ||
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JingleHell
United States11308 Posts
On June 27 2012 08:45 Falling wrote: Website feedback is one thing. I'm just a little irritated that you're coming on ABL thread and crapping on moderation. Also what do you think the vast majority of moderation is except so-called "drive by moderation." We get hundred and hundreds of the things during a day and I sure is hell not reading the entire thread every time there's a report. TL's a big place. I agree there's a problem, but there's places to voice it and I don't think ABL thread is one of those places. Basically my round about way of saying what I say to newbie TL users "If you have a problem with TL moderation, take it to website feedback" Well, then, for putting it in the wrong place, I apologize. But for the sentiment, never. As for moderation in general? Well, think of it like SC2 Strat. NrGMonk got hired to mod it, specifically because a lot of the mods aren't qualified to judge quality of advice, which is 100% relevant to context. Since even the rules state that moderation will be contextual, case-by-case, and subjective, in something where mods don't understand context, it's better to leave the vast majority of those boards to the few individuals who can. If you'd like to understand better the real specifics of my issue, rather than just the broad outline of "Oh, he's been modded there multiple times", either give me the go-ahead to explain more in-depth here, or PM me, and I can make a very good case, I think, for why that kind of moderation is outright bad for Tech. I don't make a secret of the fact that I've been modded, and I don't try to couch things in terms that don't encompass my own grievances. Neither of those would be objective or contribute to the situation, really. But if you treat me like I'm just being bitter for no reason, instead of bitter for a potentially very good reason, without really understanding the context, you're no better than the worse sort of impressions I'm capable of giving off, of an agressive knee-jerking reaction. | ||
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TheToast
United States4808 Posts
On June 27 2012 08:33 JingleHell wrote: I've never made a secret of my feelings about modding in Tech support. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=218677#11 If the issue doesn't get fixed, people will keep complaining, or give up completely. And if they give up completely, Tech Support goes to hell in a handbasket anyways. Aside from mahnini in IRC, I haven't seen any mods actually willing to discuss my points on this, but apparently my attitude sucks, right? The question is, does it suck because I'm wrong (feel free to show me why), or is my attitude causing hard feelings because I'm actually right? Why is it all on the mods to fix the Tech Support forum. I know you are playing mafia for the first time right now, but if start playing it more often one of the things you will find is that the TL-Mafia forum is one of the best run, best moderated, most organized sub forums on TL. Really, without question. Yet GM and Flamewheel are the only members of staff that really have any hand in how the mafia forum is run. The rest is all done by regular TL users who've come together to put together a coherent and well thought out plan to run their forum and how they can police themselves. Only when issues go beyond that do they call in a banling to deal with it. Of course GM is a mod now which makes things easier, but before that they had to rely on staff who didn't know much about the day-to-day goings on of Mafia. I'm not suggesting that the two are analogous, but you can't just expect the staff to snap their fingers and fix it all. There has to be a collaboration between us and the staff to fix issues. Mahini has made some steps in the right direction, now we have to also. Start working on more [G] Threads that explain issues in depth; if people aren't searching then let a mod know so they can deal with it. There is a shit ton of work in that thread (like dozens of hours over the whole course of its existence) and people recognize that; it's why it's become the default mouse purchasing advice thread on TL. Trust me, as the OP I've found that I've gained some defacto authority in Tech Support as I have the final say about what goes in the thread and what does not. That's just one way we can self-police ourselves. If we're tired of people opening the same 3 threads and asking the same 3 questions without searching--then stop responding to them. Start directing them to where they can find the information and explain they need to search; then report or PM a mod to close the thread. That's another way we can self police. As I said in my previous post, I agree that there needs to be more effort from staff to moderate the forum more closely. Mahini and others have clearly heard this (I think even Chill closed a TS thread earlier), but it takes time to get a system and standards up and running; we're not going to flip a switch and have perfect moderation. Give them some time, and start thinking about how you individually and all of us together can make the forum work better and run more smoothly. I've got some ideas of my own, and am working on a big [G] thread right now too. Think about how you can contribute JH, instead of just commenting from the sidelines. On June 26 2012 10:41 wo1fwood wrote: I see I'm a little late to the party here. To just re-emphasize I suppose from things that many have said already, I have found that recently I have become more than a little fatigued trying to answer basic questions to stuff that is easily accessible on TL to users. My technical expertise is very limited to very few areas, mice being once of them, and a lot of us have frequented and given lots of advice and help in the thread by TheToast. I've been noticing recently that other than myself, TheToast, JingleHell, IPSBlue, Medrea and others who used to frequent that thread (and gave pretty good advice) haven't been seen in a good long while, and I wonder if it's because we keep answering the same questions over and over, and over... Many of us have taken a lot of time to explain things to everyone so they shouldn't be asking these questions. I spent six months on a comprehensive write-up on the topic for instance, though admittedly it was for more than just TL, and recently I have found that I'm starting to get really disheartened that people aren't reading the OP of even TheToasts thread anymore, which leads to posts like this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=174311¤tpage=70#1396. There's so much cringingly bad misinformation in this post, notably in the third paragraph that I reported it. Also, in that thread there's a questionaire and almost 9/10 times the answer to the angle snapping question is "lolwut?". I'm not asking you to read my entire 17 thousand word article, but you can easily get to the angle snapping section in my thread and read up about it in under 2 minutes, is that so hard? I guess mainly I'm personally feeling fatigued after working so hard to help people understand things better and a lot of people just aren't reading things. And I would surmise by the sound of everyone else this is present in the entirety of the tech support forum. Mouse thread updates are next on my list after the current thread I'm working on, I know it desperately needs it. The "Purchasing Guide" section is kind of laughable right now and not super helpful. But there is still a shit-ton of information there about what's on the market and your Guide pretty much should answer any technical questions. In fact, the info on gaming mice is some of the best organized in Tech support between our two threads. I definitely agree there is some fatigue, but you know what? If the info is there and people fail to read it that's sort of their fault. I certainly don't feel responsible if they completely ignore both threads and buy some piece of shit. Of course the flip side of this is that there are legitimate questions that end up going unanswered. A possible solution might be for us to learn to start answering questions more selectively and rebuffing some of the people who put in zero effort finding the answer themselves. Or just responding with a link that points them in the right direction. | ||
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JingleHell
United States11308 Posts
On June 27 2012 09:09 TheToast wrote: Why is it all on the mods to fix the Tech Support forum. I know you are playing mafia for the first time right now, but if start playing it more often one of the things you will find is that the TL-Mafia forum is one of the best run, best moderated, most organized sub forums on TL. Really, without question. Yet GM and Flamewheel are the only members of staff that really have any hand in how the mafia forum is run. The rest is all done by regular TL users who've come together to put together a coherent and well thought out plan to run their forum and how they can police themselves. Only when issues go beyond that do they call in a banling to deal with it. Of course GM is a mod now which makes things easier, but before that they had to rely on staff who didn't know much about the day-to-day goings on of Mafia. I'm not suggesting that the two are analogous, but you can't just expect the staff to snap their fingers and fix it all. There has to be a collaboration between us and the staff to fix issues. Mahini has made some steps in the right direction, now we have to also. Start working on more [G] Threads that explain issues in depth; if people aren't searching then let a mod know so they can deal with it. There is a shit ton of work in that thread (like dozens of hours over the whole course of its existence) and people recognize that; it's why it's become the default mouse purchasing advice thread on TL. Trust me, as the OP I've found that I've gained some defacto authority in Tech Support as I have the final say about what goes in the thread and what does not. That's just one way we can self-police ourselves. If we're tired of people opening the same 3 threads and asking the same 3 questions without searching--then stop responding to them. Start directing them to where they can find the information and explain they need to search; then report or PM a mod to close the thread. That's another way we can self police. As I said in my previous post, I agree that there needs to be more effort from staff to moderate the forum more closely. Mahini and others have clearly heard this (I think even Chill closed a TS thread earlier), but it takes time to get a system and standards up and running; we're not going to flip a switch and have perfect moderation. Give them some time, and start thinking about how you individually and all of us together can make the forum work better and run more smoothly. I've got some ideas of my own, and am working on a big [G] thread right now too. Think about how you can contribute JH, instead of just commenting from the sidelines. If it appears I'm only commenting from the sidelines, it's as a result of being utterly sick of what happens in Tech. Bad threads happen, bad advice happens in bad threads, the majority of the time (unless Tech Modding is currently in the spotlight) the only recourse to bad threads and advice is to put it down in the threads, or let it happen. But the second a regular gets tired of the same bad, re-hashed flamebaiting and snaps at someone, they get modded. Eventually, multiple regulars get pissed and tired of it, slow down posting, shit gets really bad, and we go into Tech spotlighted moderation for a while, until the regulars show back up in hopes everything will change. It's a cycle, straight up. I've done a couple of guides, I've put in my posts, and done my contributions. Some stuff stays up high on the board, other stuff ends up rolling back into the main threads, like Computer Build/Simple Questions. That's just the way of it. I'm aware part of the work is on the regulars, and like I said, I've put in a fair amount of time. But the fact is, unless there's actual support from the mods, things don't really improve, no matter how much work the regulars do. There's three factors to quality of a sub-board. Post/Thread quality, Regulars, and moderation. Post and thread quality goes down, it's more difficult for the regulars, and more difficult to moderate. If the moderation is also weak, then it's all in the laps of the regulars. That in itself wouldn't have to be horrible, but if the majority of the moderation is undirected and ends up hitting the regulars for snapping because of the horrid quality of advice and the multitude of shitty threads, it doesn't do anyone a favor. I'm not trying to make it so that Tech suddenly doesn't even need regulars, I'm just saying that if there's not a balance, the board suffers. | ||
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NeMeSiS3
Canada2972 Posts
On June 16 2012 16:14 NrGmonk wrote: I think the problem is that there's not a tech support mod. Most mods don't know when people are giving bad advice. A couple of posters in the Tech forum are really good with sound advice, maybe give them mod of the forum? You can generally pick out who are the top ones, like the creator of the big programming thread | ||
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good5321
20 Posts
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Filter
Canada620 Posts
Perfect example of a thread that needs to be modded, and why regulars don't post much (I never really do anyway honestly though.) I make a post talking about the op's situation, only to get ripped apart by somebody who is misinformed (they even provide links to support their ignorance) forcing me to write out a long winded post that will probably end up being a giant waste of time. At the end of the day, the advice outlined halfway through the page from that gentleman could cost the op a $1000 paperweight. | ||
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JingleHell
United States11308 Posts
I don't give enough of a shit about laptops to go figure out which one of you is right, but frankly, you don't come to feedback to try and un-lose a debate. Tech's issues aren't 100% mods. They're a combination. And regulars getting lazy/sick of it/sloppy is part of the problem too. Unless a mod knows laptop hardware specifically, which, frankly, is a clusterfuck, they're not going to be able to mod without more information, you clearly don't want to provide it, if they have to decide, it looks like the other guy is right, not you. | ||
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Filter
Canada620 Posts
On July 02 2012 03:25 JingleHell wrote: He has a metric fuckton more supporting evidence than you do. This isn't even the case of "guy won't listen to evidence". Well, it kind of is, but not in the direction you want it to be. I don't give enough of a shit about laptops to go figure out which one of you is right, but frankly, you don't come to feedback to try and un-lose a debate. Tech's issues aren't 100% mods. They're a combination. And regulars getting lazy/sick of it/sloppy is part of the problem too. Unless a mod knows laptop hardware specifically, which, frankly, is a clusterfuck, they're not going to be able to mod without more information, you clearly don't want to provide it, if they have to decide, it looks like the other guy is right, not you. His evidence is like basing gpu performance on sc2 solely on the benchmark of an i5-2500k with excellent cooling based system when the system in question is an i3 system with terrible cooling. The performance in sc2 is obviously a lot more complicated than what the simple gpu benchmark suggests. I guess if anything, the threads proof that modding that forum is basically impossible. (Note: No disrespect to your knowledge, it's far superior to mine but when it comes to laptops and how they perform I have a lot of experience with them.) | ||
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JingleHell
United States11308 Posts
On July 02 2012 03:39 Filter wrote: His evidence is like basing gpu performance on sc2 solely on the benchmark of an i5-2500k with excellent cooling based system when the system in question is an i3 system with terrible cooling. The performance in sc2 is obviously a lot more complicated than what the simple gpu benchmark suggests. I guess if anything, the threads proof that modding that forum is basically impossible. (Note: No disrespect to your knowledge, it's far superior to mine but when it comes to laptops and how they perform I have a lot of experience with them.) It doesn't matter how much experience you have. Anecdotes vs semi-relevant links, the guy posting anecdotes is wrong, even if he's right. It's one thing to not bother with a link if you're in a situation where you don't need one. But when the other guy has links, or if someone asks for links, if you're not willing to post them, you don't have much room to complain about the results. I've said it before, Tech shouldn't be some popularity contest. I don't care how much you know about laptops, especially without proof, you can't combat links without links, unless there's something grossly wrong with methodology in the links to discuss. If the performance is really THAT different between the two CPUs, or because of cooling solutions, show it. If it's not some painful discrepancy, like "we did this GPU benchmark in an environment that makes more sense for a CPU benchmark" where you don't need a link to demonstrate it, just post a link. Yes, some things are hard to combat with links. This shouldn't be one of them. | ||
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Chargelot
2275 Posts
I think we need a dedicated laptop thread (resource type thread). Then we will be on our way to a cleaner, safer | ||
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TheToast
United States4808 Posts
On July 03 2012 07:54 Chargelot wrote: I think we need a dedicated laptop thread (resource type thread). Then we will be on our way to a cleaner, safer I'm working on one now, it's just.... a lot of work. And long. PS if anyone knows a lot about mobile GPUs and wants to help.... you should PM me because this shit is confusing X( | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20285 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=344810 Suggestiong he overclock his cpu, crank his preset to max settings and run at 1080p with a 4kbitrate. Without twitch partnership running a stream that high will result in a ton of people not being able to watch it who don't have the connection/system to handle that hardcore of a video encode. I wanted to adress this, because nobody told him or even suggested to overclock CPU. I was the only one who mentioned overclocking in any way, and it was to ask if his CPU was overclocked. He had a 3930k (enthusiast platform) and seeing one at stock settings is quite rare, so i was wondering what kind of clocks he was at, and for his performance, a 3.2ghz 3930k is a world away from a pretty common 4.5ghz OC. There was little useful data for such CPU's performance for streaming uses, i suggested testing from 1920x1080, 60fps (to see the cpu usage - i know now that it'd be easy with oc and probably fine at stock settings) and though that was probably bad i remember even from back then (because he had a 3930k and it was notable to me) that i was going to stay in the thread and give him feedback to probably lower FPS some, maybe experiment with 1920x1080, 30fps at a lower preset (because i was super into experimentation and getting data then) and definitely playing with bitrate to see what worked. I didn't mention 4k and probably would not, maybe would have given a few sets of options when i had data on the cpu (like 1920x1080, 60fps, veryfast @4k or 1920x1080, 30fps, slow @2.5k) There's little problem with decoding streams, i haven't really heard of it being an issue for anyone, even now, so i don't think it's a major concern There's nothing wrong with using like 4k bitrate (aside from concerns properly expressed in the thread about some people not being able to watch, that's what discussion is for) though it may not be optimal for some people trying to watch, nor anything wrong with using a slower CPU preset especially at reduced framerate - and i would consider somebody negligent trying to offer personalized advice without asking if his unlocked extreme edition CPU is running at 3.2ghz or 4.5ghz (i'm pretty sure 4.5ghz is way more common among gaming/enthusiast market) Slow is also not a really low preset, Placebo/veryslow/slower/slow/medium/fast/faster/veryfast if i remember correctly? It's not cranking it to max at all, and i'd expect anyone with such a powerful CPU streaming a game like starcraft 2 (which is cpu bound but relies heavily on one core/thread, leaving ~4.5 cores on a 6 core CPU idle) to be using a preset like slow/medium if they were not using a really high FPS Taking everything at once like hey! overclock your cpu! crank preset to max! run 4k bitrate! seems a bit extreme, and that's not really what i saw it as. I came into thread reading I am trying to get the best quality you can possibly get as smooth as possible and seeing somebody with a 3930k and a stream functional with 4k bitrate (which i didn't comment on yet)It's more of an unorganized mess of people trying to help than a ton of bad advice i think*, i don't think anything aside from You can probably use Slow and 45 FPS is actually bad, and even then he used the word "probably"*But that's it, that's what we are, an unmoderated community. It's a big mess sometimes, but that's difficult to fix, i know for a fact that mod efforts have resulted in people being wrongfully warned or temp banned multiple times, not from anything of opinion, but people have been punished for flat out stating undisputable facts because they were reported by somebody without tech knowledge and punished by somebody without tech knowledge because something was said that might sound silly to an outsider, but actually makes perfect sense for an educated person. An example of this would be the guy that got warned or temp banned for saying that an i7 720qm (740qm?) laptop CPU had trouble running sc2 in high supply situations (the base clock speed is 1.6 or 1.73ghz and it was an older architecture) and somebody posted something along the lines of "lol i7 doesn't have trouble with sc2" and reported him, and then a mod chose to punish/warn him, because he was unaware that the "i7" nametag means a bunch of different things and there are terrible i7's as well as great ones Apologies for bad/long/repetitive post, just kinda threw some thoughts together. Hf | ||
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