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On June 19 2012 14:20 mahnini wrote:
none of you currently complaining in this thread would make a good tech mod for the simple fact that these threads you're complaining about you don't post in at all. your job as regulars is to educate the less knowledgable forum-goers. i don't care if you tear some asshole a new one, in fact, i'd rather you do it than me banning him because it leads to more discussion and people can learn from it, but that doesn't mean the second some guy makes a mistake you should jump on his ass like it's some feeding frenzy. treat the guy like a human being first.
i'll admit that i haven't been moderating as much as i used to and i'll try to step up again (i have no where near as much time as i used to but ill make more of an effort to check regularly). pm me if you have specific stuff you want me to address, or better yet take two seconds to tell the guy he's wrong. you don't have to write a giant post, tell him he's wrong and throw him a link, most people aren't adverse to learning as long as you aren't being a dick about it.
Despite my name, I don't actually like charging headlong into a 1v100 fight, knowing full well that I'm going to lose. And I sure as hell couldn't do it with a smile on my face. And it doesn't help that this stupidity isn't a localized issue -- for every link with valid support for valid claims they can provide 5 which provides contrary "evidence".
In all honesty a lot could be accomplished by simply enforcing the tech support guidelines.
"Find me a laptop" http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=346285
Can probably be integrated into the computer build resource thread.
"Which build" http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=345897
Could definitely and probably should definitely be in the build thread.
"Help with upgradez guize" http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=345704
... build resource
And of course, the classic:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=343914
Simple question, simple answer, it's in his manual, he can google it, etc.
The amount of threads which simply don't need to exist is rather astounding. There shouldn't even be a place for people to say stupid shit, because 99% of it happens in threads which shouldn't have ever been opened. It's a solution which doesn't require new mods, and can be carried out on a logical basis. Thread gets reported -> moderator looks at it -> it's very obviously about getting a new build -> closes with a "use this thread" message with the link. Easy peasy, right?
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Mahnini, why would I still respond to the majority of terrible advice when it's pretty much guaranteed to turn into an argument, at which point, if we look at the trends, I'm more likely to get modded for being right and getting frustrated than someone else is for posting similarly while wrong?
That, coupled with what Chargelot said about "evidence" existing to back just about any claim makes it far less cut and dry than it should be.
You mentioned burnout, but mine has less to do with the bad posters, and more to do with the fact that most mods ignore the tech board until there's a chance to temp a regular for getting sick of rehashing something basic.
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I don't think anyone in this actually wants to be a mod.
I also don't even think the threads the OP posted were anywhere near the worst of them. IMO, they were questionnable at best (although I admit, I didn't read every single line of all the threads).
I don't think anyone will disagree Tech Support needs moderation; I jumped on this thread because it's there, but I definitely think a better OP could be made. No offense to the OP -_-
IIRC, there was already a thread/post that had better examples; probably made by skyR?
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ok, i get what you are saying with the bad threads. it's definitely something that shouldn't happen. however, i still think the best way to handle bad advice is to point out the person's wrong and correct them. if you find the same thing being rehashed over and over take note and maybe we can work on a FAQ or something.
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On June 19 2012 23:19 mahnini wrote:
ok, i get what you are saying with the bad threads. it's definitely something that shouldn't happen. however, i still think the best way to handle bad advice is to point out the person's wrong and correct them. if you find the same thing being rehashed over and over take note and maybe we can work on a FAQ or something.
Mahnini, much love, but if people are too lazy to search or even skim the front page of the board, as evidenced by all those bad threads, why would they read through an FAQ?
Also, just as a point of relevance, if you organize an FAQ by topic to make it easier to read, it won't help people who need it, because they generally can't tell the difference between voodoo and a motherboard.
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Why not just have highlighted posters instead of a dedicated tech support mod, avoid any ethical issues dealing with banning people based on dangerous ignorance and just have people who are willing and able to properly refute bad advice in threads. If everyone was so knowledgeable and able to report bad tech advice to the mod it would be a viable solution, else it's just easier to appoint a few people who have highlighted posts in tech support forum.
Anyways tech support is quite trying, you can find people who are good with hardware price/performance, people who are good with hardmods, people who know software and then the whole mix of other subjects that occur in a tech support forum.
Anyways the vast amount of tech support in forums ends up like this: http://xkcd.com/979/
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On June 16 2012 07:48 Filter wrote:
Repaste all the things!
Lol, I see this all the time and it makes me want to pull my hair out. Despite the fact that applying new thermal compound will actually increase temps in the short term due to the break in period of thermal compound; unless the compound is shitty off brand or was incorrectly applied the first time, thermal compound practically never needs to be replaced. And unless you're going to replace it with some quality stuff, you might as well not bother with it anyway. It's not magical goo that makes things cold! [/minirant] 
Anyway, what are we talking about?
On June 19 2012 07:56 Falling wrote:
To be honest, I can't remember the last time I've dealt with a Tech Report. I look at it and have no clue whether it's bad advice or not. The best I can hope for is paying attention to who are the true vets of Tech Support and act on their reports alone. I personally would love a Tech mod.
Honestly, the 100% most helpful thing would just be to keep closing threads that violate the Tech Support Forum Guidelines. I know there's a lot of talk in here about people not reading them, IMO that's partly due to the fact that they are sporatically enforced at best. You guys are already experts at identifying a bad thread at 200 paces, and most of the same principles apply in TS.
On June 17 2012 08:36 GMarshal wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 08:28 Moloch wrote:
I have a question related to all this: is it encouraged to report bad tech advice? As mentioned before, a lot of mods don't know if the advice is sound or not, and probably wouldn't want to take action based on a not-easily-verified claim about the advice given in the post.
If you link me evidence in your report, I will happily moderate bad advice. My issue is when someone says "thermal paste from X is good!" and it gets reported as "idiot" and I have no idea what the hell thermal paste is, what X is, or why he is being reported.
Sometimes statements are so utterly stupid or bizzare it would be very hard to find evidence to disprove them. Here's a good example of one I reported a few weeks ago that resulted in no moderation (name redacted of course):
On June 06 2012 05:35 NameRemoved wrote:
Not every processor is heat limited. You should test out overclocking before buying a new heatsink, as the overwhelming majority of motherboard blow-ups occur because people change from stock heatsinks to tower heatsinks. Motherboards are rated for stock, radial heatsinks that apply cooling to not just the CPU, but the whole board, while tower heatsinks ONLY cool the CPU, so you will get a rise (often deadly rise) in the CPU NB, RAM, and most importantly, the VRM.
See, I don't even know where one would start with this, it's all complete bullshit. Not only can a motherboard not "blow up" (without explosives anyway) but neither can switching from a radial to a tower heatsink cause a "deadly" rise in temps. RAM normally doesn't require any cooling at all. Just every part of this statement is a complete fabrication, and frankly providing evidence ought to be the burden of the person making exceptional claims.
It's sort of like if someone wrote a reply saying that hundreds of car accidents each year are caused by invisible gnomes, but no one ever reports them. I can't very well prove him wrong (can't prove a negative after all), but common knowlege on the subject of car accidents makes it very clear this is not the case.
So, that's what makes this sort of difficult at times.
On June 19 2012 23:19 mahnini wrote:
ok, i get what you are saying with the bad threads. it's definitely something that shouldn't happen. however, i still think the best way to handle bad advice is to point out the person's wrong and correct them. if you find the same thing being rehashed over and over take note and maybe we can work on a FAQ or something.
I was planning on doing a few things (haven't had time though, arg!) but again, it does come back to enforcement. If people aren't reading the TS Guidelines, they're not going to read a FAQ. I think there are some solutions that should be explored (i.e. highlighted posters) and might help, but more stickies alone aren't going to make a huge difference IMO.
That being said, some additional organization could go a long way to helping the forum. Some additional [G] threads could really help things out. Perfect example: [G] Hardware That Can Run Sc2 would be a thread that could clean up a whole load of pointless, repetitive, one-line question threads. I have and others have done our best to create some of these threads, but if you're someone in this thread whining and haven't taken the time to put together a simple [G] thread to answer one of these questions that continually comes up (you know who you are); you ought to shut up. Seriously. You're not helping, you're just whining.
Those people who have done so: Wo1fwood, JH, FragKrag, Wom, TheGunrun, Aero, me, really are the only ones who are making it better.
On June 19 2012 14:20 mahnini wrote:
none of you currently complaining in this thread would make a good tech mod for the simple fact that these threads you're complaining about you don't post in at all. your job as regulars is to educate the less knowledgable forum-goers. i don't care if you tear some asshole a new one, in fact, i'd rather you do it than me banning him because it leads to more discussion and people can learn from it, but that doesn't mean the second some guy makes a mistake you should jump on his ass like it's some feeding frenzy. treat the guy like a human being first.
i'll admit that i haven't been moderating as much as i used to and i'll try to step up again (i have no where near as much time as i used to but ill make more of an effort to check regularly). pm me if you have specific stuff you want me to address, or better yet take two seconds to tell the guy he's wrong. you don't have to write a giant post, tell him he's wrong and throw him a link, most people aren't adverse to learning as long as you aren't being a dick about it.
It gets tiring after a while, when no one searches and everyone keeps rehashing the same bad advice. I don't know how many times I've argued with people over the thermal compound crap. Doesn't matter, it still get brought up. I don't know how many times it's been pointed out in the Mouse Thread that every mouse has prediction. Doesn't matter, terms still gets thrown around as a synonym for angle snapping. Don't know how many times I've told people to put simple questions in the simple questions thread. Doesn't matter, they'll make new one line threads anyway (and keep bumping them).
I do this in my free time because I genuinely want to help people. I actually enjoy helping people solve their problems, I enjoy researching issues as I often learn stuff too. But sometimes I feel like the status of the TS forum makes things more difficult than it needs to be; sorry but I don't want to spend my free time posting in all caps to prove that some randome idiot is wrong. Worse is when I spend the time to do the actual research and the person asking the question listens to the person spouting BS.
I realize I don't know everything, and all of us are wrong at time--I sure as hell am (sometimes )--and as such the TS forum is never going to be perfect. I think most of us understand that. But right now it's not even close, and maybe I'm only speaking for myself but I'd really like the TL staff to take a look at it and talk about some of the ideas that are being thrown around. There are some solutions, but we need some organization and some level of enforcement on basic rules.
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On June 16 2012 19:32 Chargelot wrote:Phew, none of my posts were quoted. I have the same general problems. A lot of threads about wanting to upgrade a CPU/Overclock CPUs basically turn into a "lol I'm 4.4ghz@1.23 volts!" (which is basically just an OC circlejerk). I have no problems with showing off cool OCs, but it never ever helps the OP. A lot of the CPU heat problems can correctly be explained with the whole "repaste" thing, but I think if you're going to give advice, give complete advice. Like telling them to make sure they get all the dust out of their computer, and to even dust the fans, to ensure that fans are blowing in the right direction, to disassemble and clean their cooler (if appropriate, just did this with my 212+, there was a shit ton of dust between the fins), etc. But I think in general, people are a lot more willing to listen to guys like Jinglehell who provide real useful information, and ask real relevant questions. It really comes down to whether or not they see it before they stress test a damaged GPU. Poll: Should Jinglehell be a tech support mod?Yes (17) 77% Yes (5) 23% 22 total votes Your vote: Should Jinglehell be a tech support mod? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): Yes
Where is the "who is jinglehell" option?
+ Show Spoiler +
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I was planning on doing a few things (haven't had time though, arg!) but again, it does come back to enforcement. If people aren't reading the TS Guidelines, they're not going to read a FAQ. I think there are some solutions that should be explored (i.e. highlighted posters) and might help, but more stickies alone aren't going to make a huge difference IMO.
That being said, some additional organization could go a long way to helping the forum. Some additional [G] threads could really help things out. Perfect example: [G] Hardware That Can Run Sc2 would be a thread that could clean up a whole load of pointless, repetitive, one-line question threads. I have and others have done our best to create some of these threads, but if you're someone in this thread whining and haven't taken the time to put together a simple [G] thread to answer one of these questions that continually comes up (you know who you are); you ought to shut up. Seriously. You're not helping, you're just whining.
How does this make any sense?
People are lazy, which is why they don't read stickies. There already is a thread that shows what hardware can run SC2. It's the computer build resources thread (the first post).
Personally, I think extremely long stickies are just stupid. Even as someone who tries to help people, it's a lot of trouble sifting through 3 pages trying to help someone; which is why I barely post in the computer build thread.
I don't think there's anything wrong with new threads asking for help, as long as it's a worthwhile OP (I actually prefer it this way). Which is where the stickies come in - showing you HOW to make a good thread. Moderation would then be limited to 1. closing stupid OPs, which ANY mod can do because you don't need any computer experience to know a good from a shitty OP and 2. weeding out bad advice (which actually makes it easier to see the context off in one contained thread; instead of sifting through several pages of crap).
People then have a choice; you get thread closed because your OP sucks? Make a new one and put more effort. This forces you to read the sticky for how to create a proper thread.
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I'm just on a rant now but I have no efen idea why everyone keeps saying to use the Computer Build Resource thread. You can say that about anything. Even simple questions simple answers would be included because it's all related. So what's the point? Tech Support would be one thread. If you apply this to everything, TL would be 2 threads. Tech Support and SC General Discussion. But wait, if you're asking about how to build a computer for SC, that would be SC GD too right.
I think another important consideration is for search results. It's a lot easier having divided threads enabling future help for other people without having to sift through hundreds of pages.
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On June 21 2012 23:11 jacosajh wrote:
I'm just on a rant now but I have no efen idea why everyone keeps saying to use the Computer Build Resource thread. You can say that about anything. Even simple questions simple answers would be included because it's all related. So what's the point? Tech Support would be one thread. If you apply this to everything, TL would be 2 threads. Tech Support and SC General Discussion. But wait, if you're asking about how to build a computer for SC, that would be SC GD too right.
I think another important consideration is for search results. It's a lot easier having divided threads enabling future help for other people without having to sift through hundreds of pages.
i'm of a similar opinion. if the thread is well thought out and the questions are more specific, i like having it in its own thread rather than among the thousands of other posts in the resource thread. not only does it make it easier for the person asking to find relevant replies, but its easier for people posting advice to follow any discussion that follows.
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On June 21 2012 23:11 jacosajh wrote:
I'm just on a rant now but I have no efen idea why everyone keeps saying to use the Computer Build Resource thread. You can say that about anything. Even simple questions simple answers would be included because it's all related. So what's the point? Tech Support would be one thread. If you apply this to everything, TL would be 2 threads. Tech Support and SC General Discussion. But wait, if you're asking about how to build a computer for SC, that would be SC GD too right.
I think another important consideration is for search results. It's a lot easier having divided threads enabling future help for other people without having to sift through hundreds of pages.
Dude, the CB thread moves 1 to 2 pages a day, usually with 5-10 build requests or questions on each page. That would be 5-20 new threads every single day in the TS forum which would make it rediculously cluttered. It's the same reason why people aren't allowed to open a new thread in SC2 Strategy to ask one question. Also, half the posts in the CB thread are just people asking if their build looks okay and if there are any suggestions anyone has. There's no reason to open a new thread just for that. Keeping everything in one place makes it easier to get help and to find people who need help. Makes 100% sense.
On June 21 2012 23:21 mahnini wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 23:11 jacosajh wrote:
I'm just on a rant now but I have no efen idea why everyone keeps saying to use the Computer Build Resource thread. You can say that about anything. Even simple questions simple answers would be included because it's all related. So what's the point? Tech Support would be one thread. If you apply this to everything, TL would be 2 threads. Tech Support and SC General Discussion. But wait, if you're asking about how to build a computer for SC, that would be SC GD too right.
I think another important consideration is for search results. It's a lot easier having divided threads enabling future help for other people without having to sift through hundreds of pages. i'm of a similar opinion. if the thread is well thought out and the questions are more specific, i like having it in its own thread rather than among the thousands of other posts in the resource thread. not only does it make it easier for the person asking to find relevant replies, but its easier for people posting advice to follow any discussion that follows.
Now that we have the subscribed threads feature, I find that it's a heck of a lot easier to provide help when the posts are in the same thread. I've subscribed to the Simple Questions and Answer thread and anytime anyone posts a question it pops up in my list and I can attempt to answer it ASAP. With the CB thread everyone is asking about the same thing, or everyone is asking to have a build reviewed, so it makes that easier too.
When opening a new thread makes sense is when the issue is complicated enough that it's going to take up a number of replies, questions like that just get lost and confused in the other threads. But a "Check over this Build" or "Comment on this Build" thread doesn't.
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On June 21 2012 23:11 jacosajh wrote:
I'm just on a rant now but I have no efen idea why everyone keeps saying to use the Computer Build Resource thread. You can say that about anything. Even simple questions simple answers would be included because it's all related. So what's the point? Tech Support would be one thread. If you apply this to everything, TL would be 2 threads. Tech Support and SC General Discussion. But wait, if you're asking about how to build a computer for SC, that would be SC GD too right.
I think another important consideration is for search results. It's a lot easier having divided threads enabling future help for other people without having to sift through hundreds of pages.
I've already explained this the last time when someone mentioned something about tech support in the feedback section. It isn't because we love everything being in one thread and hate seeing new threads. The problem is that individuals don't create threads that have any content at all for a discussion. Like what the fuck is this? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=346919 And then you have those people who just copy paste the CBT Q&A. This is a waste of everyone's time, it's more clicks for less content.
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I think initial way to make a solution to this problem is very simple: someone has to create a thread where good contributors to tech support can be nominated and then polls for them made asking if people recommend those contributors' advice.
This is really simple and doesn't require to make anyone TL staff.
Once a poll has enough votes and enough votes for "yes, I do recommend advice of this person" the contributor is added to a list of recommended people.
Your thoughts?
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On June 22 2012 19:41 beetlelisk wrote:
I think initial way to make a solution to this problem is very simple: someone has to create a thread where good contributors to tech support can be nominated and then polls for them made asking if people recommend those contributors' advice.
This is really simple and doesn't require to make anyone TL staff.
Once a poll has enough votes and enough votes for "yes, I do recommend advice of this person" the contributor is added to a list of recommended people.
Your thoughts?
The reason why this thread even exists is because some people think Tech Support needs cleaning up. The OP makes an emphasized point of how much bad advice is being given out. This suggests there are a lot of misinformed people in this subforum. Letting them vote on who's advice they would recommend would be a shitfest.
IMO, this is a major reason why Tom's Hardware went to the shithole. Like with a system like that, you might as well go to Yahoo! Answers for tech advice.
Mods are essential for keeping things clean because they need the authority to tell people to STFU. And it seems mahini has been conducting a massive purge recently, so I think all of this doesn't matter now.
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Yeah me as well. But if people aren't even going to read the OP then there's a limit to what we can do. I'll say it again, I like helping people but at some point they have to help themselves too.
Idk though maybe they're just missing it. Mahini, could you maybe add a mod note to the CB thread making sure people have seen the questions in the OP? If they still post without all the detail, then it's their own damn fault if they get bad advice.
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On June 23 2012 02:15 jacosajh wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 19:41 beetlelisk wrote:
I think initial way to make a solution to this problem is very simple: someone has to create a thread where good contributors to tech support can be nominated and then polls for them made asking if people recommend those contributors' advice.
This is really simple and doesn't require to make anyone TL staff.
Once a poll has enough votes and enough votes for "yes, I do recommend advice of this person" the contributor is added to a list of recommended people.
Your thoughts? The reason why this thread even exists is because some people think Tech Support needs cleaning up. The OP makes an emphasized point of how much bad advice is being given out. This suggests there are a lot of misinformed people in this subforum. Letting them vote on who's advice they would recommend would be a shitfest. IMO, this is a major reason why Tom's Hardware went to the shithole. Like with a system like that, you might as well go to Yahoo! Answers for tech advice. Mods are essential for keeping things clean because they need the authority to tell people to STFU. And it seems mahini has been conducting a massive purge recently, so I think all of this doesn't matter now.
I will paste what I wrote to JingleHell in PMs and he brought a similar problem.
I still think it's worth trying out because there wouldn't be many people who would search nominees' posts before voting on nominees to "recognized contributors who definitely know they shit". This means most of people who would vote would be those who were helped by nominees.
Unless you or someone else seriously were going after bad posters and they may held a grudge against you or that person.
I can't imagine people voting before knowing what people post.
There could be an additional rule like being recognized by at least 1 current contributor and at the beginning, by majority of other nominees.
Bad posters may be nominated but 1st of all their advice harming someone effectively decreases their chance at having enough "yes" votes, and if someone is posting enough to be chosen as a nominee then his advice has to hurt someone sooner or later.
2nd I don't think there is many malicious users and even some of those are nominated, 1) and what I wrote about being recognized by other nominees and contributors would apply.
You would be able to jump at people without the need for much hostility and fear of being warned or banned, your status of a recognized contributor would go before you. Imagine writing "I, recognized contributor of tech support forum [underlined as being a link to the nominees, polls and list of contributors thread] with complete certainty am saying your advice is utter garbage" and people believe you because you ARE THE recognized contributor.
Wouldn't that feel good?
edit: I mean if we can't elect banlings/moderators because TL staff lacks reeveulation method then at least doing similar things that has been done the strategy forum (blue background for contributors) could be done.
The best thing about is it doesn't require any TL staff involvement, even the thread isn't stickied it can be frequently bumped
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Nice to see there are quite a few people that want to see it cleaned up. In terms of moderation a good place to start is to just eject all useless posts, things that contribute nothing to the topic at hand but just offer extremely generic advice/don't even offer that level of help.
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EPT
