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Very good read. Good research etc.
I've always been a person who wanted gaming on television but i've never put much thought behind the success it would have with ratings and so forth. Personally, i think if they ever decide to try and bring esports to the public on television they should do it slowly. Maybe if they just added a show on some channel thats already known for gaming like G4 that is a short 30 minute show. Maybe it goes over recent tournaments? Short games of sc2, WoW, halo, cod those sort of games. Test the waters if you would. Obviously any games would be pre-recorded so that you could fit them in. Now the quality of the games would hurt the esports scene due to the 7-10 minute length required on a game. Some people may not think that represents the community as it should so that would be a possible problem.
My point i'm trying to get across here is that starting small is the key if they did want to venture out to do this. Not going straight gaming channel or a league like these other operations have tried.
I remember watching g4tv back a few years ago when they had so much more gaming and more quality game analysis. I loved watching those shows. Shows like Cinematech (i think?) which was only the cut scenes from video games. I remember this show coming on late at night (same time as shake weight, barbecue grill ads). I would think that a show like that gains sponsorship from the games that give it rights to use the cut scenes.
I think if you could get money to run a show that is purely cinema's from video games that 30 minute show of e sports (not just sc2) would be doable. Once again pointing out that you don't go bull rush the station and start doing every match from NASL or something. If the viewers of the channel respond well after testing the product, possibly experiment into a bigger program.
I reiterate, good OP. Thanks
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On April 12 2011 13:26 Falcor wrote:anyone else think of this when they think of iptv? + Show Spoiler +
Something like that. :D
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I think there's a lot to learn here from the world of chess, which has for decades faced almost identical problems with the transition to TV. Chess is at least as difficult to convey to the unacquainted viewer; you don't even have the pretty explosions to fall back on, and the tension between the players is all beneath the surface. Nonetheless, major chess events have been televised before and continue to be. With the right commentators, it can work. The problem in my eyes occurs when people try to turn it into something that it's not - a cheap thrill that's accessible to anyone and can be flicked on or flicked off whenever you like. Chess doesn't work that way, and nor does SC2. In fact the attempts to make chess more appealing to a wider audience in recent years (mostly by shortening time controls) have come at the cost of game quality.
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So, let me get this straight. TV won't work, but IPTV will because I can watch my friends on a webcam while watching the game. Kennigit, you really are a total nerd aren't you? Ever heard of a SuperBowl party? What about Monday night football? You realize there are plenty of examples where people actually meet in person to watch things, which is vastly superior to a bunch of nerds behind web cams. Hell, a bunch of the guys at the office watch SC2 games together almost daily, and we'd totally throw parties to watch the game on TV as well if it there were decent games on at decent times. Slapping an IP on the front of TV doesn't make it change everything. It's not like you can't watch your friends on a webcam on your PC while watching TV today. While I don't agree with "dick" as you call him, you are just as much of a tool.
User was temp banned for this post.
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@ Kennigit
What is great about your response to the article is that network TV is/will not become the right venue for eSports. The right venue for eSports is online. That said, what people need to realize is that TV and Online are no longer truely seperate.
Over the next few years we will see a dramatic increase in the quality/viewer size of online content because advertisers are moving their dollars online. The fastest growing market in advertising is online video. This includes in-stream, branded content, and pre-roll. Web enabled televisions are exploding on the market and predicted to increase by over 500% in the next few years. This means that you and I will be watching starcraft on our TVs without having to use a Roku, Apple TV, or other set-top device. New networks that are exclusively online will begin to see major corporate backing. And SC2 will/should be at the forefront of this entertainment revolution.
Kennigit is right....if we try to push SC2 on to network or cable television it will simply fail again. Not because it isn't worthy or interested but because its audience isn't watching the tv. It's audience is online. But it's audience will grow as more and more consumers and advertisers realize the value of online video content.
Here are a few stats to help you.
Change in Time Spent by Media Type 2009-2010
Network Television -1%
Radio.................. - 2%
Print.................... - 8%
Online..................+6%
Mobile..................+14
Advertisers and major networks are paying attention to these numbers. And as a result online advertising spend specificaly within online video is predicted to increase in 2011 by more then 30%. Advertisers are hungry for digital content because digital media is more engaging and it is more effective then traditional media.
Yes SC2 should not be on TV soon in the traditional sense. What is great about that is Traditional TV is quickly becoming less valuable and digital content is quickly becoming the hotest and most desireable media. Networks are scared and they are looking for ways to capitalize on digital media but they cannot agree on how it should be done. While they fight, SC2 and other digital media entrepreneurs will become forces to be reconed with.
Kennigit, I'm glad to see you've got your eye on the real prize.
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On April 12 2011 13:46 unaliased wrote:
So, let me get this straight. TV won't work, but IPTV will because I can watch my friends on a webcam while watching the game. Kennigit, you really are a total nerd aren't you? Ever heard of a SuperBowl party? What about Monday night football? You realize there are plenty of examples where people actually meet in person to watch things, which is vastly superior to a bunch of nerds behind web cams. Hell, a bunch of the guys at the office watch SC2 games together almost daily, and we'd totally throw parties to watch the game on TV as well if it there were decent games on at decent times. Slapping an IP on the front of TV doesn't make it change everything. It's not like you can't watch your friends on a webcam on your PC while watching TV today. While I don't agree with "dick" as you call him, you are just as much of a tool.
IPTV was a suggestion. lmao
There have been many Ottawa lan events where Ken has been in attendance bud. In fact, there are tons of TL gatherings all the time. I can assure you this guy isn't a tool and he's tough as nails. Not the kind of guy you would want to pick a fight with that is for sure.
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On April 12 2011 13:26 Jotoco wrote:
I will disagree with you Kennigit.
I will start by saying that I do agree SC2 won't make to TV, and if it did, it would fail miserably.
BUT, I think it is more of a cultural thing to the USA (maybe North America) which is not representative of "The West".
On point:
1. Easy to edit while maintaining the narrative.
It is easy to edit. Look what recent tournaments are using, they add smaller videos to dead areas of the screen, add promotional banners and stuff.
As someone pointed, we have 45 min Soccer half-times. There are commercials squeezed in when the play is slow, and there are many such occasions on SC2 to squeeze commercials (long macro moments, right at the beginning, etc). It would be the work of casters/observer to sneak those adds in the slow moments. Or even put then in the smaller dead spaces across the screen.
2. Able to target core demographic and casuals simultaneously.
This is only an issue (at least in Brazil) if you're talking about open TV. If you're on Cable, then even a small amount of viewers (much smaller then current SC2 viewership) can keep it a profitable business. There are Channels (on cable) that get a few thousand viewers, tops, and SC2 can manage a few tens of thousands of viewers at the same time.
You could target the HARDCORE demographic and slowly try to make the masses understand the game.
In Brazil there are MANY Sports that are unknown, like Golf, Baseball, even BASKETBALL. What does the TV stations do when there are major games? They dedicate a good 15~30 min to explaining the fucking game before each transmission. They explain the rules, the rivalries involved, hype the players... each and every transmission.
Eventually, some people grow used to those sports and start following then, but in the end Brazil is still a one sport nation and most (80%+) of people only know follow and know Soccer. But the point being, this 20% is some 40 million fucking people. That is a HUGE amount of viewers and money that is untapped. They want entertainment, but not Soccer, shouldn't we give then an option?
3. Social Networking
I've experienced many times that TV transmissions can (and will) foment social networking responses. Like a SC2 match in the middle of the day would create a fuck-ton of Community and Hassle in Orkut (largest social network in Brazil), some top TTs in twitter (Brazil is known for putting topics in the TTs lighting fast) and create many, many comments on facebook.
By the very nature of these social networks people who don't have a clue what the hell is starcraft would hit some knowledgeable person who would then explain it and propagate the message.
Of course this is not guaranteed to happen (nothing is) but this is as likely a scenario as you paint. We don't have SC 2 experience on TV, we DON'T know how it would go. I personally think it would fail, for completely different reasons, one being that I am the target audience for this kind of show and I only turn on the TV on MAJOR, MAJOR events/shows. And even those events I get to know about because of internet and/or word of mouth.
On the other hand, it could flourish because we (Brazil, and to an extent "the west") have AWFUL internet connections and streams very often lag terribly (UStream, for example, TSL is unwatchable).
I'm literally playing devil's advocate here, but because I think the Kennigit's attitude is Immature and even if I though he was right I don't think it is the way to critize someone who put effort into writing something to try to help the SC community. He should have respected other people's opinions like this site tells us to.
I have seem people be banned for only half the criticism he expresses here, even with good arguments, and he gets all the praise in the world for it? Sorry I don't buy these two weights thingy.
Even though my post is probably be deleted/edited and I perma banned I HAD to say this, because it would NOT be funny if the TL staff was being ridiculed on another site.
PS: And YES, I'm mad with this attitude. Censor me for expressing my opinion.
You have some interesting points there. About the internet connections though, dunno why you use Brazil as example. We have plenty options of decent internet connections here and most of them don't even have a bandwidth cap.. I'm guessing its the same for many other similar countries.
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Great writeup and, honestly, is nice to read. When I saw that I was thinking that was just the absolute worst way to approach this.
That said, there are ways to make things like this work. E.g. IndyCar is a series that doesn't really take breaks at all. Best you can do is break during caution laps. However, they basically use a side-by-side displaying system where ads on the right and action on the left. This lets them come back immediately if something goes wrong and you're not like "wait, what just happened?!"
That said, it's nowhere near a perfect system and SC2 doesn't really have any reason to go to traditional TV.
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Well put Kennegit, I think as far as the West goes, we still have many strides more to take
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I think it is obvious that the people who do MMA production reels with the epic side stories on the players have better production value than GSL or MLG or any other Starcraft II league out there right now (Chill did an above average one for TSL without any player dialogue in it though). Just strikes me as odd, considering all the amazing content people from TL can create, yet it goes into songs about Day[9], Husky ...etc.
Just think of a storyline setup like this(Pre-match video):
IdrA vs Huk
1. Chill/Day[9] talk about the history of their playstyles etc>video shows some massive battles with IdrA on 5+ bases with amazing creep spread.
2. Cut to a clip of IdrA discussing the ZvP matchup, after talking about how dumb it is that protoss has better buildings than his race...he calls Huk a cheesy faggot who can't play a single game without a 4-6 gate timing/Deathball (mostly made up of hallucinated units).
3. Cuts to a clip of Huk pulling off some beautiful forcefields, while the commentators talk about the transformation of Huk into an more Korean super-aggro style after moving to SK for the GSL.
4. Cuts to clip of Huk having a half smirk while talking about how he beats IdrA over 80% of the time on ladder.
Maybe some video clips of them training, other famous players talking about the rivalry...etc.
I think the video clips Kennegit shows in the OP are what the people producing hype/side story videos should strive for. I got pumped about MMA just from watching those examples and I am not a wrestling fan at all.
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On April 12 2011 13:57 Demonace34 wrote:
I think it is obvious that the people who do MMA production reels with the epic side stories on the players have better production value than GSL or MLG or any other Starcraft II league out there right now (Chill did an above average one for TSL without any player dialogue in it though). Just strikes me as odd, considering all the amazing content people from TL can create, yet it goes into songs about Day[9], Husky ...etc.
Just think of a storyline setup like this(Pre-match video): IdrA vs Huk
1. Chill/Day[9] talk about the history of their playstyles etc>video shows some massive battles with IdrA on 5+ bases with amazing creep spread.
2. Cut to a clip of IdrA discussing the ZvP matchup, after talking about how dumb it is that protoss has better buildings than his race...he calls Huk a cheesy faggot who can't play a single game without a 4-6 gate timing/Deathball (mostly made up of hallucinated units).
3. Cuts to a clip of Huk pulling off some beautiful forcefields, while the commentators talk about the transformation of Huk into an more Korean super-aggro style after moving to SK for the GSL.
4. Cuts to clip of Huk having a half smirk while talking about how he beats IdrA over 80% of the time on ladder.
Maybe some video clips of them training, other famous players talking about the rivalry...etc.
I think the video clips Kennegit shows in the OP are what the people producing hype/side story videos should strive for. I got pumped about MMA just from watching those examples and I am not a wrestling fan at all.
Yeah, for sure. It would be nice to TSL start the wagon with this. Maybe from the Round of 8 onwards. It would be great.
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On April 12 2011 13:54 Momildo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 13:26 Jotoco wrote:
I will disagree with you Kennigit.
I will start by saying that I do agree SC2 won't make to TV, and if it did, it would fail miserably.
BUT, I think it is more of a cultural thing to the USA (maybe North America) which is not representative of "The West".
On point:
1. Easy to edit while maintaining the narrative.
It is easy to edit. Look what recent tournaments are using, they add smaller videos to dead areas of the screen, add promotional banners and stuff.
As someone pointed, we have 45 min Soccer half-times. There are commercials squeezed in when the play is slow, and there are many such occasions on SC2 to squeeze commercials (long macro moments, right at the beginning, etc). It would be the work of casters/observer to sneak those adds in the slow moments. Or even put then in the smaller dead spaces across the screen.
2. Able to target core demographic and casuals simultaneously.
This is only an issue (at least in Brazil) if you're talking about open TV. If you're on Cable, then even a small amount of viewers (much smaller then current SC2 viewership) can keep it a profitable business. There are Channels (on cable) that get a few thousand viewers, tops, and SC2 can manage a few tens of thousands of viewers at the same time.
You could target the HARDCORE demographic and slowly try to make the masses understand the game.
In Brazil there are MANY Sports that are unknown, like Golf, Baseball, even BASKETBALL. What does the TV stations do when there are major games? They dedicate a good 15~30 min to explaining the fucking game before each transmission. They explain the rules, the rivalries involved, hype the players... each and every transmission.
Eventually, some people grow used to those sports and start following then, but in the end Brazil is still a one sport nation and most (80%+) of people only know follow and know Soccer. But the point being, this 20% is some 40 million fucking people. That is a HUGE amount of viewers and money that is untapped. They want entertainment, but not Soccer, shouldn't we give then an option?
3. Social Networking
I've experienced many times that TV transmissions can (and will) foment social networking responses. Like a SC2 match in the middle of the day would create a fuck-ton of Community and Hassle in Orkut (largest social network in Brazil), some top TTs in twitter (Brazil is known for putting topics in the TTs lighting fast) and create many, many comments on facebook.
By the very nature of these social networks people who don't have a clue what the hell is starcraft would hit some knowledgeable person who would then explain it and propagate the message.
Of course this is not guaranteed to happen (nothing is) but this is as likely a scenario as you paint. We don't have SC 2 experience on TV, we DON'T know how it would go. I personally think it would fail, for completely different reasons, one being that I am the target audience for this kind of show and I only turn on the TV on MAJOR, MAJOR events/shows. And even those events I get to know about because of internet and/or word of mouth.
On the other hand, it could flourish because we (Brazil, and to an extent "the west") have AWFUL internet connections and streams very often lag terribly (UStream, for example, TSL is unwatchable).
I'm literally playing devil's advocate here, but because I think the Kennigit's attitude is Immature and even if I though he was right I don't think it is the way to critize someone who put effort into writing something to try to help the SC community. He should have respected other people's opinions like this site tells us to.
I have seem people be banned for only half the criticism he expresses here, even with good arguments, and he gets all the praise in the world for it? Sorry I don't buy these two weights thingy.
Even though my post is probably be deleted/edited and I perma banned I HAD to say this, because it would NOT be funny if the TL staff was being ridiculed on another site.
PS: And YES, I'm mad with this attitude. Censor me for expressing my opinion. You have some interesting points there. About the internet connections though, dunno why you use Brazil as example. We have plenty options of decent internet connections here and most of them don't even have a bandwidth cap.. I'm guessing its the same for many other similar countries.
Not everywhere and it can get pretty expensive.
I myself pay about R$100,00 for internet! And it is a measly 4mbit. (Although I can run HD Justin.TV streams no problem, my only problem is with a few streams). But then again, what is the percentage of people that can pay for that kind of internet? And on top of that we have Throttling and traffic shaping that kills video streams 50% of the time.
But that is besides the point. I still think SC2 is NOT meant for TV, as TV is in a descent to oblivion.
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To be completely honest, as a 18-30 year-old American male, to me traditional TV really feels like a dying technology. I hardly ever watch anything on television. Although I pay for basic cable, I never watch it. Everything I do is on or from the internet. I am somewhat curious what the break down of TL.net is in this regard.
Poll: How much (traditional, non-internet) television do you watch per week?0-1 hrs/week (61) 75% 1-7 hrs/week (15) 19% 21+ hrs/week (3) 4% 7-14 hrs/week (1) 1% 14-21 hrs/week (1) 1% 81 total votes Your vote: How much (traditional, non-internet) television do you watch per week? (Vote): 0-1 hrs/week
(Vote): 1-7 hrs/week
(Vote): 7-14 hrs/week
(Vote): 14-21 hrs/week
(Vote): 21+ hrs/week
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United States2386 Posts
this was a fantastic post. It is a shame that SC2 will not be on prime time television, but i am pretty sure that is a good thing. Very interesting points. Thanks for taking the time to write this!!
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I voted 14-21.. now that i think about it probably should have done 21+. Honestly for me TV is still awesome.. But I watch sports 24/7 plus shows like House, jersey shore which i don't care to find streams/downloads for those online. I'd rather spend my time on the net playing/watching sc2 or watching youtube clips and facebooking lol.
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On April 12 2011 14:01 Brad wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 13:57 Demonace34 wrote:
I think it is obvious that the people who do MMA production reels with the epic side stories on the players have better production value than GSL or MLG or any other Starcraft II league out there right now (Chill did an above average one for TSL without any player dialogue in it though). Just strikes me as odd, considering all the amazing content people from TL can create, yet it goes into songs about Day[9], Husky ...etc.
Just think of a storyline setup like this(Pre-match video): IdrA vs Huk
1. Chill/Day[9] talk about the history of their playstyles etc>video shows some massive battles with IdrA on 5+ bases with amazing creep spread.
2. Cut to a clip of IdrA discussing the ZvP matchup, after talking about how dumb it is that protoss has better buildings than his race...he calls Huk a cheesy faggot who can't play a single game without a 4-6 gate timing/Deathball (mostly made up of hallucinated units).
3. Cuts to a clip of Huk pulling off some beautiful forcefields, while the commentators talk about the transformation of Huk into an more Korean super-aggro style after moving to SK for the GSL.
4. Cuts to clip of Huk having a half smirk while talking about how he beats IdrA over 80% of the time on ladder.
Maybe some video clips of them training, other famous players talking about the rivalry...etc.
I think the video clips Kennegit shows in the OP are what the people producing hype/side story videos should strive for. I got pumped about MMA just from watching those examples and I am not a wrestling fan at all. Yeah, for sure. It would be nice to TSL start the wagon with this. Maybe from the Round of 8 onwards. It would be great.
I believe NASL is wants do things like this. That's the whole point of recording matches live and then putting it all into post-production.
Voted 0-1 in the poll. I can get everything from TV on my computer and much more.
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Awesome write up kennigit. I will agree that it is important for starcraft to focus on the medium that works for it the best, but also I believe that starcraft would benefit from a wider spread of awareness. Even now a lot of people in the starcraft community have NO idea wtf the NASL, the GSL, the TSL are.
Like they have NO idea what an amazing world they are missing out on. Why? because they're casual dudes that like massing battle crusiers before attacking at the 25 min no rush game. Something wrong w/ that? No. But its important to keep these people in mind. There needs to be advertising for the sc events. Banners, TV ads on cable TV *shits pretty cheap tbqh*
But really. There needs to be penetration of the global media market, we have an awesome thing going here, but what kills markets more than any thing, is a lack of awareness *read: Firefly*.
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On April 12 2011 14:15 Backpack wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 14:01 Brad wrote:On April 12 2011 13:57 Demonace34 wrote:
I think it is obvious that the people who do MMA production reels with the epic side stories on the players have better production value than GSL or MLG or any other Starcraft II league out there right now (Chill did an above average one for TSL without any player dialogue in it though). Just strikes me as odd, considering all the amazing content people from TL can create, yet it goes into songs about Day[9], Husky ...etc.
Just think of a storyline setup like this(Pre-match video): IdrA vs Huk
1. Chill/Day[9] talk about the history of their playstyles etc>video shows some massive battles with IdrA on 5+ bases with amazing creep spread.
2. Cut to a clip of IdrA discussing the ZvP matchup, after talking about how dumb it is that protoss has better buildings than his race...he calls Huk a cheesy faggot who can't play a single game without a 4-6 gate timing/Deathball (mostly made up of hallucinated units).
3. Cuts to a clip of Huk pulling off some beautiful forcefields, while the commentators talk about the transformation of Huk into an more Korean super-aggro style after moving to SK for the GSL.
4. Cuts to clip of Huk having a half smirk while talking about how he beats IdrA over 80% of the time on ladder.
Maybe some video clips of them training, other famous players talking about the rivalry...etc.
I think the video clips Kennegit shows in the OP are what the people producing hype/side story videos should strive for. I got pumped about MMA just from watching those examples and I am not a wrestling fan at all. Yeah, for sure. It would be nice to TSL start the wagon with this. Maybe from the Round of 8 onwards. It would be great. I believe NASL is wants do things like this. That's the whole point of recording matches live and then putting it all into post-production. Voted 0-1 in the poll. I can get everything from TV on my computer and much more.
I know what you mean, but instead of post-production...most of these hype/side story videos can easily be made before a game has ever been played. The post production is mostly to cut out the waiting in between games, like in the GSL....5 min breaks and Tastosis having to come up with crap to talk about on the top of their head.
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On April 12 2011 14:01 Brad wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 13:57 Demonace34 wrote:
I think it is obvious that the people who do MMA production reels with the epic side stories on the players have better production value than GSL or MLG or any other Starcraft II league out there right now (Chill did an above average one for TSL without any player dialogue in it though). Just strikes me as odd, considering all the amazing content people from TL can create, yet it goes into songs about Day[9], Husky ...etc.
Just think of a storyline setup like this(Pre-match video): IdrA vs Huk
1. Chill/Day[9] talk about the history of their playstyles etc>video shows some massive battles with IdrA on 5+ bases with amazing creep spread.
2. Cut to a clip of IdrA discussing the ZvP matchup, after talking about how dumb it is that protoss has better buildings than his race...he calls Huk a cheesy faggot who can't play a single game without a 4-6 gate timing/Deathball (mostly made up of hallucinated units).
3. Cuts to a clip of Huk pulling off some beautiful forcefields, while the commentators talk about the transformation of Huk into an more Korean super-aggro style after moving to SK for the GSL.
4. Cuts to clip of Huk having a half smirk while talking about how he beats IdrA over 80% of the time on ladder.
Maybe some video clips of them training, other famous players talking about the rivalry...etc.
I think the video clips Kennegit shows in the OP are what the people producing hype/side story videos should strive for. I got pumped about MMA just from watching those examples and I am not a wrestling fan at all. Yeah, for sure. It would be nice to TSL start the wagon with this. Maybe from the Round of 8 onwards. It would be great.
They already started doing that with Chill's hype video for the round of 16 and it sounds like Ken and Chill will be doing more.
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I'm pretty sure "small-time" television like g4 would be an ideal place to try at least mayby doing highlights? or whos winning what? you could have a segment on the overall scene say on AotS or something.. its definately feasable to have something of that sort at the very least (in fact im very suprised they havent already, that i know of anyways)
To be quite honest I could live easily without television, I certainly use the internet more than i use my cellphone and computer combined, hell half the time if i want to head over to a friends house or something i can just hit them up on vent and not even bother calling them / texting them. So i could see where TV isnt growing as fast because of things like mobile/internet multimedia. Granted if these internet caps get serious.. idk how much online media i'll be able to watch.. but thats another issue.
I dont think Primetime TV is ever going to have much sc2 coverage but certainly it could have things like portions of time on say G4 .. or On demand? <-- no shit that would be really good actually, i havent read everything on the thread except for the first couple of posts / last page, does anyone think that would be a good idea? on demand sounds pretty baller actually, in fact i even remember G4 had some sc2 beta preview coverage in their on demand section (which i only saw when i had comcast, not sure if they even have it anymore)
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EPT
