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On April 12 2011 16:36 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 16:29 Yergidy wrote:On April 12 2011 16:14 Rabiator wrote:On April 12 2011 13:47 Innovation wrote:
Kennigit is right....if we try to push SC2 on to network or cable television it will simply fail again. "Trying to push SC2 on to a network" is also a totally stupid american way of doing it. "The numbers" are GLOBAL numbers and not US numbers and the fluctuation in them really doesnt make it worthwile for any TV station. Those same stations would obviously want to "monopolize" the content to be the only provider, but that also means people will be locked out because they simply cant get that channel. Simple common sense why TV wont work for eSport ... it is global and not national. Uh, he was saying it wouldn't work. And why do you have to put "stupid american" in there? It has nothing to do with the post... Sc2 won't work on TV because there is no way to get audiences to watch it who have never played or know about the game, they would be lost in the lingo. Getting SC2 on TV is like getting Metalcore on the radio, it's just not everyones cup of tea. "Stupid american" has everything to do with the topic, because only the USA matters for most citizens (and apparently "dick" - the author of that article which Kennigit criticized - is one of them) of the USA. They invented globalization but are too lazy to adjust to it if something truly global comes along. Btw. ... I am fully agreeing with Kennigit and Innovation in that it wont work because it has to work in ALL countries with a significant potential viewership and not simply the US.
The way you worded your post it didn't make sense to me but I get it now, thanks, but just because
he neglected to say the numbers were global doesn't mean that he only cares about he USA, he may have simply not taken into account the numbers were global. The article was written from the point of view of getting e-sports on AMERICAN television like it is on in Korea. So if you are going to say that then you may as well say "stupid koreans" because they are doing what the author wants to do in the USA.
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Great post kennigit. While we all secretly want sc on TV (at least I do), you do an excellent job laying it all out. I wish I disagreed with you but I don't, Sc probably does not have a future on TV.
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On April 12 2011 11:35 GwSC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 11:25 LoLAdriankat wrote:
Pretty sure the 14-25 age group doesn't even care about TV anymore anyway. That age group watches their stuff on Hulu, Youtube, etc. This so much. I feel like we are really shifting away from TV.
^ Agreed. I own two 56 inch TV's and a huge projector and I watch 0-2 hours of TV a week and when i do it's me skipping through all the commercials. The only exception is UFC PPV fights which I invite a bunch of people over and we watch it on the projector. My computers are kind of the central hub of my house. My sound system is setup wireless so i can listen to music in any room and i can stream basically anything I would normally watch on TV
Maybe I'm a minority on this, but if they had SC2 on TV, I'm not sure if it would be as good as it is now. I like that I have 6 user streams up at 1 AM on a Tuesday morning that I can choose from on one monitor and i can be playing a game on a second monitor.
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Very nice article and I totally agree. I think so many people severely overestimate the popularity of SC2 in the grand scheme of things in the media/entertainment world. The sad truth is that it just isn't that popular and will rarely draw in viewers who don't already know what it is/have played it before.
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I can't disagree more with Kennigit and that's why:
1. You are talking about US TV and not about the TV in EU. Here we are used to watch football games that are 45 min long without commercials. I am not referring to the actual sport but only to the time period TV stations run without commercials. And the average SC2 game is something like 15 min (real time  ) so there is no problem with that at least as i see it.
2. Someone earlier made a point about starting small and than going big. In you example Kennigit you are talking about nationwide US TV. This indeed is way too far ahead but at least here in EU with every cable TV packet you get at least some stupid stations that "no one watches". It's easy and cheap to pay for air time on some of them at least. Yes you will have small market in the beginning but no one started big .
3. The point of watered down content because of the noobs is way off too. I will give an example with myself starting to watch american football a few years back. At the start i didn't have any idea of the rules, yea i new there are offence and defence but nothing more actualy. At that point the commentators sounded really smart and insidefull for me and i learned quite fast most of the common rules. Now after quite some time i understand how basic is the commentary and how much of the actual game you are missing in you don't understand it.
The same is with any sport (or e-sport of you like) you need basic commentary and some "in dept" form ex pro that sounds intelligent but don't give anything new for the really advanced person watching the game (in SC2 terms say masters player).
4. Social networking is something that traditional media (TV or radio) can't provide because of it's very nature (internet based) but what TV can bring is (for SC2 at some future point and for other sports now) going out with friends to the pub and watching "The game".
I will not try to add anything about commercials on the actual maps that are played because i have no idea how it will work with IP rights.
P.S. Something i forgot to add is that it does not matter what any of us think about World of Warcraft this game is so popular that it made gaming as a whole mainstream and this is helping SC2 immensely to become bigger :D
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Would be awesome to have you talk about this on State of the Game as well. Really interesting point and it does come up a lot. I think you have a good view on the matter.
As for the content? I agree, even thought we would all like the prestige of TV, we are a different generation. A new one, the digital one and we are just now becomming of age. We will dictate the mediums of the future, we give them the power to become great.
TV is a different audience, a different generation, a different system. I do have to bring up a football match though, they have commercials. When you miss a goal during it don't you get the replay of it after the commercials are done? That might work if you can chop it up, or even if they have both the 45min halfs with a big break in the middle. But eitherway it probably won't work for Starcraft 2 because the internet is perfect, it's where it belongs, it's where the people are.
I don't know how IPTV works or anything but I can say that the feeling of watching it live with others around the walk, talking and reading peoples opinions or comments in chat, asking questions or anwering questions from sincere people who are new and only now are starting to experience the magic of Starcraft's competitive aspect, is amazing.
So stoked, the streaming platforms have definitely improved a lot in the past year and made a ton of things possible. It opened my eyes when you predicted them to continue evolving in the future. I can't wait until that day. It would be paving the way not only for ourselfs as a community but also for many other smaller communities in different subjects to say, we don't need TV anymore, we have our own now.
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Oh man I have to disagree with quite a lot of this but your points are not wrong I just don't think you are coming in with the right point of view. You seem to be highly cynical about this kind of thing and I can understand how that's possible considering the failings of other broadcasts and attempts but just because you fail once doesn't mean you give up.
The biggest reason TV isn't growing at this point can be pinned on programming in my own opinion. You have shows that are poorly written, predictable, and poorly thought of and overdone. Things like Survivor, American Idol, Two and a Halfmen(not anymore..), CSI, NCIS,Law and Order Spinoff's all of these things while not terrible and some pull in good numbers don't pull in good numbers because of the amazingly fresh writing and amazing characters.
Network TV is failing I don't think the same can be said of the paid cable and even some of the basic cable channels, for one they don't have to follow the regulations of the FCC so they get to explore new and sometimes uncommon viewpoints. Things like Dexter, Weeds, Sparticus push the limits of tv and offer something new. Of course you can find those things on dvd,netflix, and other.. sources. They are doing well however because they are not limiting the programming to the most "broad" demographic.
You can make drama, you can make stories with Sc2 you know this, I know this, and hopefully anyone who'd broadcast it on TV would take advantage of this as it doesn't take some mystic voodoo to figure out that it's not just the game itself that brings people in. Sex symbol's? You can find plenty of fairly to highly attractive sc2 players hell some of them are on Team Liquid. You can do anything with the right marketing and spin.
Niche shows can and do exist as do entire channels on cable you can fit commercial's wherever you feel or simply pop them on in sections of the overlay. You don't have to chop and remove sections of the game unless you are being placed on networks for the most part and honestly sc2 on network tv would be bad for it.
Also what's this about geek culture and gaming not being accepted in the west? Take a look at the upcoming film releases things like Green Lantern,Captain America, Thor all coming to the big screen while the TV is filled with shows filled with geek and gaming references. We are the demographic for the most part, when the worst show's on cable are re-runs of network shows or stuck safely on E! or MTV I am pretty sure we'll be okay.
Other's have pointed out how to cater to both casual and hardcore and that Tasteless does a great job reaching out to people who may not know the game as well as say you or I. Once again you don't need to have hardcore or else it ruins everything and you don't need to dumb it down to reach to people who've not seen it. That's what story building, proper caster's and good players can do quite easily. If you where broadcasting on network tv this would be the case but you wouldn't be.
The question you have to ask is does SC2 need to be on tv to be successful? Of course not, so long as fans keep watching streams and sponsor's see the potential you can have the GSL,NASL,TSL, MLG and whatever else purely online.
However if you want to have that true proper explosion having it TV won't hurt it if it's done properly.
Sorry if this didn't all come out as orderly as it should have I am a tad tired but I had to reply to this because I really feel you are missing some major things in your counterpoint to this author's article.
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I think the future of the popularity/profit of SC2 and esports in general lies in the rise of Internet TV (streaming). Why? Because it's pretty much already happened. I'm not really sure why so many people are obsessed with getting games onto a format that's a little bit closer to collapsing every year -- I think the key is to expand and popularize the services we already use. Why put a dumbed-down version of the game we love on cable TV when we could just get more people into the online format NASL, GSL and pretty much every other respected tournament uses? The more devices that come along that can put Hulu, Netflix, justin.tv, ustream, etc. on to our big screen TVs, the less it matters that esports can't be accessed with an antenna.
Plus, not everybody has whatever obscure and expensive TV package (especially for viewers outside the US) it would take to get the first wave of esports, while every-freaking-body has the internet and can access websites from anywhere in the world. I mean, let's face it, ESPN probably isn't going to be the one to start broadcasting StarCraft -- it's gonna be on some out-of-the-way channel, maybe at an inconvenient time, that won't attract more than the hardcore fans anyways.
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Excellent article. I totally agree that any sc2 event managed by a TV network would be absolutely terrible.
What someone else here noted is that the big sc2 tournaments have a global viewership. No TV channel can reach those. And the people they can reach in big numbers will not care about sc2 or the network will have to morph sc2 into something which we really do not want to see.
My personal wish about sc2's future is not more sc2, it is better sc2. I can watch sc2 games already 24/7 from ustream/justin/youtube/own3d. However, the real excitement is in tournaments like TSL3, GSL, dreamhack and IEM.
I mention TSL3 first since I enjoy that most and I think it has the greatest potential. I also really like the player portraits. They are a huge win for the viewers. Here the narrative starts. Viewers want to connect with the player and a portrait helps immensily. I see far to little of players in a tournament, mostly the winner appears out of nowhere in front of a microphone
after the game, mumbling "...and then I built a mothership." while looking at the floor.
(And such players are fine, it's the job of the producers to wrap a narrative around the game.)
So, a big shoutout to the organizers of TSL3, teamliquid for being the sc2 hub and last but not least to all the awesome games by so many awesome players! <333
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I ask myself just one thing.
Why would i even want SC2 on TV?
My answer is: I don't want SC2 on TV. As soon as SC2 is on TV it has sold it's right to some station which probably will be pp and won't show the games to an audience it does not target. SC2 is global, so to watch an US or whatever event i suddenly would need an american PP-Station?
No thanks.
I'm fine with Ustream/Justin/Octoshape or whatever.
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On April 12 2011 12:05 iCCup.Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 12:02 ronpaul012 wrote:On April 12 2011 11:58 iCCup.Diamond wrote:On April 12 2011 11:56 ronpaul012 wrote:
I'd agree with some of both articles. The main point I have to contribute is that you make the claim that a tv channel could not go 45 minutes without showing a commercial. I'd have to disagree with this, soccer. A half is 45 minutes, and the world cup showed that the sport has a spot in this countries tv. I'd also make a point that they could incorporate sponsorships more. Possibly by putting advertisements on the maps they play on? Sounds weird I know, but most sports put some advertisements around the edge of the playing field. Also mentioning advertisements, or have a statistics pop up at the beginning of the game with some advertisements on them like most sports do. Not trying to whore out esports, but I do believe that lack of advertising time should really be an excuse. Overall though, I definitely believe it would be tough to be on tv. Blizz won't allow ads on maps. maybe not the ads on maps then, but when they do pre-game, or even early game stats showing they could throw an ad on or something. Because those don't pay anywhere near what commercials do, and most TV productions need ample commercials+extras.
they can do what most TV station do during football (real one) match and reduce the size of the broadcasted match for 4-5 seconds, and put the ads on bottom and right side of it, it works just fine.
and me personally think when everybody can have a connection fast enough to deliver 720p quality LIVE stream without lag then we can forget about TV as a medium of broadcast, but until that happen, TV is still the best way to give the highest quality pictures and sound possible (currently)
even GSL, the current 'best' LIVE service available looks shit when played on a 32 inch TV
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On April 12 2011 17:07 kinray wrote:I can't disagree more with Kennigit and that's why: 1. You are talking about US TV and not about the TV in EU. Here we are used to watch football games that are 45 min long without commercials. I am not referring to the actual sport but only to the time period TV stations run without commercials. And the average SC2 game is something like 15 min (real time ) so there is no problem with that at least as i see it. 2. Someone earlier made a point about starting small and than going big. In you example Kennigit you are talking about nationwide US TV. This indeed is way too far ahead but at least here in EU with every cable TV packet you get at least some stupid stations that "no one watches". It's easy and cheap to pay for air time on some of them at least. Yes you will have small market in the beginning but no one started big . 3. The point of watered down content because of the noobs is way off too. I will give an example with myself starting to watch american football a few years back. At the start i didn't have any idea of the rules, yea i new there are offence and defence but nothing more actualy. At that point the commentators sounded really smart and insidefull for me and i learned quite fast most of the common rules. Now after quite some time i understand how basic is the commentary and how much of the actual game you are missing in you don't understand it. The same is with any sport (or e-sport of you like) you need basic commentary and some "in dept" form ex pro that sounds intelligent but don't give anything new for the really advanced person watching the game (in SC2 terms say masters player). 4. Social networking is something that traditional media (TV or radio) can't provide because of it's very nature (internet based) but what TV can bring is (for SC2 at some future point and for other sports now) going out with friends to the pub and watching "The game". I will not try to add anything about commercials on the actual maps that are played because i have no idea how it will work with IP rights. P.S. Something i forgot to add is that it does not matter what any of us think about World of Warcraft this game is so popular that it made gaming as a whole mainstream and this is helping SC2 immensely to become bigger :D
Was about to write something similar, but - this^, pretty much.
I understand from the OP why SCII would be hard to implement on TV following previous models that he mentioned (which indeed failed miserably). Not quite sure why it shouldn't be implemented steadily, pace-by-pace, and see where it goes from there.
About some of the points - commercials during games would be so easy to implement it's not even funny, not sure why that point was brought up. And still, this is considering that as the poster above said, most games are what, 15-25 minutes?
Also, about understanding the game - let's be honest, when you watched snooker for the first time, did you know how much points each coloured ball is, how much til a player gets enough points to win a frame, what's the weight of the balls or even what is an actual "snooker"? Probably not, but it was still pretty easy to understand what's going on.
In the same way, yeah, as a spectator that's into games but doesn't know anything about SC - yeah, the guy won't know how much damage marauders do and if they can shoot up or not, but he can understand what the red and blue players are up to.
Dno - this should be done careful and with a lot of thought put behind it (compared to -A LOT- of other high-level events that are currently in progress) - but there would definitely be potential in bringing SCII to TV - even if, again, it's done at a really, really slow pace.
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I have barely watched tv in years, I think I would still look at streams even if sc was on tv.
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Great write-up. I completely agree: I would much rather have SC2 as a pioneer in the flourishing future IPTV than a wounded soldier in the downhill network television.
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I will also disagree with the post.
while i think sir kennigit estimation of the situation as it is now is precised i do not agree to his conclusions on how the situation can be in the near future.
i will start from the end:
why we would want sc2 on TV instead of streams ?
Money.
TV has money , money will make Esport explode :
Production Value , Fame for players , Stronger teams and scene etc...
i hope its clear to everyone why big money will be huge for esport and how it will make alot of the problems just disapear (if the best of the gamers will have a chance to be millionars the teen age fans will short follow and the cool definition as well)
okay so thats the obvious why we should want to have sc2 on tv.
okay kennigit gave reasons why sc2 could never be on TV , i will try to argue otherwise:
Esport success in korea:
its the most obvious reason why with the right things happening esport can have real success in the western world.
i am sorry , but nothing in the history of korea make me think why would they be able to be open to esport more then western culture . a set of events and right moves happened already there
and the result were positive . a diffrent set of sets will have to happen in the west , but there is no obstical they havn't faces that we face - so simple conclusion it is possible , but stuff need to be done.
SC2 is complex:
my non geek 20ish year old sister and her friend which is computerphobic came to harras me on saturday morning .
i watch GSL on my TV in the living room and since i really wanted to see the end of the match i explained to them whats going on so i will get a few minute of grace before being dragged out to the harsh reality.
"so those two players the cute pink guy (mkp) and the one who look like a fish (mvp) competing for 50k$ , who ever kill all the stuff the other guy have wins (war) they need to make stuff and then use it to overcome the stuff the other guy made ,
really not that diffrent from your avarge hollywood action movie."
in the end i got to watch the entire serias , the only complain i got was that the cute guy lost.
yes sc2 is complex , so is running a succesfull formula1 race ,
people can still easly enjoy the tension micro and strategy decisions of a good match, the deeper understanding can come later.
non commercial friendly:
and soccer is ? TV dudes are good enough to stick commercials in anything .
banners luls in match , slides ... anyone who watched any sport even know thats not really a problem (and unlike soccer most matches are not 45 min)
chat depended:
oh i love LR . and love TL community BUT
you can ask the lucky guys who had GSL finnal party how much fun is that .
chat is nice , but if you think of the experiance of watching a sc2 match in sports bar or in the living room with friends , it for sure wont be less of an experiance.
past failures
1000 years ago some greek guy try to put wings and jumped of a moutin . he failed and died horribly . you cannot conclude from that that flying is a bad idea.
in 1996 EA made (stole) an MMO called "earth and beyond" it was closed under a year.
alot of people said how MMO cannot work and is a bad idea.
two year later blizzard made WoW , and we know how that ended.
you need to learn from past failiures , but sometimes the brightest idea are just implemented badly , sometimes you need to wait a year .
i don't belive "keep sc2 only to streams" is the lesson we need to learn .
i actually trully believe as Esport as mainstream entertaiment , because its just that good of a product in the end .
and if LOTR and avatar can go mainstream maybe some gaming as well .
i am not sure about the timing , but i know it will not suddently happen ,
some good people will have to make some bold and good moves .
the reason why i wrote this longass post is i believe kennigit can be one of them
thanks for reading , yaron.
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I just want to respond to your thoughts on why sc2 shouldn't be on TV.
1. You say you can't play sc2 matches on TV because you need to have breaks for commercial every five minutes. Well that's not the case outside of the US. Ever heard of soccer(or the real football)? I don't see this being a problem in Europe at all. The US is not the western scene.
2. Other sports do this just fine. You can have a play-by-play commentator just like in football(soccer...) and then an expert. You could obviously adjust the level of commentary from how many drones you need to stop at to hold a 4gate, to more general talk.
But lets be honest. For the hardcore sports fan, you'll still be having your face in your palm when listening to the commentator/"experts" on TV when they talk about the game. It's good for the casuals, but as a badass nerd you'll watch what happens and think for yourself.
3. I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here. Yeah most new players found e-sports through the hyped launch of Sc2. But if they're introduced straight into the e-sports of Sc2, through television, I don't see what the difference will be. About the social hub, well... since when was TV ever associated with being social? If people become interested in the game and want to enjoy it apart from watching it on TV, they sit down by their computer and start searching.
Also I'm sure if a TV channel were to broadcast sc2, they'd make room on their website for this show, where people can find out more about the game and communicate with eachother.
I'm not saying Sc2 on TV would be a huge hit, but I'm not really buying your arguments.
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I don't get why we need the TV that badly?
We get to watch super exciting tournaments with huuuge prize pools every week. Good teams are able to get sponsorships. Tournaments are profitable for the organizers (i guess?).
I get the feeling that all this crying for TV time comes from some deep psychological need to get approval from others, in this case the mainstream.
If SC2 is a quality thing, it will spread. Things will get bigger. If TV time comes, it comes, but SC2 will grow regardlessly with everyone involved being rewarded more and more.
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Awesome article. Thank you for it. I got educated by it 
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On April 12 2011 11:35 GwSC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 11:25 LoLAdriankat wrote:
Pretty sure the 14-25 age group doesn't even care about TV anymore anyway. That age group watches their stuff on Hulu, Youtube, etc. This so much. I feel like we are really shifting away from TV.
Shifting towards complete and utter dependency on the internet I feel.
We are marching towards our dooms.
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This article is just as bad as the other one, if not worse. I wasn't educated, I was sucked into a mindset that the author treated as absolute truth & reality.
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EPT
