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On April 12 2011 19:09 sixfour wrote:
very nice read
see no reason for sc2 to move to tv, the current internet methods of broadcasting we have just seem to make more sense. if it does, then i could see it moving forwards via some network showing the early rounds of some tournament over the internet (say something like espn3, coupled with on-demand repeats) with the semis/final on their actual network.
that said, the whole distinction of all media is blurring right now so it really doesn't make sense to try to move to tv in the first place. and yes, it'd need to be dumbed down somewhat if you want to make it to a casual audience, kennigit mentions poker in his op and that's basically unwatchable for people who have a clue (even when they're not taking half an hour to tell us a flush beats a straight) as it's moved into a format where it's just all-in all the time, rigged so that big names (i.e. hellmuth) get tv time when they shouldn't, and other games than nlhe may as well not exist as freddy fish couldn't possibly get games where you get four cards or can't bet all your money at once
edit at the above post - much the same. the only thing that i watch on tv now is football, anything else i can get online, and i'd probably do that as well if stream qualities were better when i'm not watching at the pub. i have no reason to own a tv
Well according to Nielson 750,000 people tune in on nbc here to watch Poker After Dark it's airs at 2am Mo-Sat.
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On April 12 2011 18:45 Linkirvana wrote:
Hmm, interesting article. I always kind of figured e-sports was going to hit the TV sooner or later.
I wonder though, your key point seems to be (Atleast the one that seemed most significant to me) that SC2 is a "hardcore" game and therefor cannot be broadcasted succesfully on TV due to the impossibility of attracting the average viewer. (Or losing the actual SC2 fans by doing that)
That made me wonder: Why would it be harder to follow a SC2 match than follow a professional X sport match on a very basic level?
Why is SC2 bound to go into the CS direction TV-wise and not say, in the soccer direction? You give no logical arguments to back up your claims other than "Trust me, I'm a doctor"
"1. Easy to edit while maintaining the narrative."
Why should this be a problem? Tournaments are able to throw in online commercials? You can simply record people casting replays and pause them whenever you want?
"2. Able to target core demographic and casuals simultaneously. "
Other sports can do it, SC2 doesn't seem too overly complicated to get into. Grasping the basic idea in SC2 seems about as hard as grasping the basic idea of soccer. From my experience atleast.
I also noticed you saying this: "The matches themselves are only about 50% percent of what keeps Starcraft games interesting – the rest is the social experience of knowing you are communicating with thousands of others live and being able to comment on the action at hand."
Erhmmm, what? 1 glance at a chat window in any stream will tell you that the vaaaaast majority of people don't give a shit about chitty-chatty.
It's all about the action baby, and SC2 delivers in that department. And in my opinion it doesn't take uber rox gaming skill to see that, therefor I think the TV would still be a viable medium to spread the goods.
:Edit: Any wrong conclusions I drew in this post I will gladly attribute to my everlasting ignorance.
Ok
1. Because games very in length. PVP is short, sometimes, Pvt is long, sometimes, you cant broadcast that with comercials in the west because unlike eastern tv, we dont have block commercial times. We sell our times to be spread out over a program. You cant evenly make that call when ur watching sc, because there is not clock, no 4 minutes left in the 4th quarter. Games can be 6 minutes, or 45 and you may guess sometimes very well you cant really call it (lol proleague has gone over 2 and a half hours once)
2. Compare the rules in football to the rules in Sc2-Youll see here that where as yes one guy wins and the other guy loses will be easy to get into, whats hard is, why did he win why did he lose. Starcraft is much more subtle than I think you realise. This isn't ok well barcelona possesses the ball more and create more chances so thats why they won. Explaining i timing attack is much more than ok he droned the whole game he won, or hes been attacking so he won (jeez i cant even do examples very well its so difficult.) So initially yes, viewers may be like ok this is new. But true attachment will be much lower, why, because youll see a guy win, and then youll say i like that guy, but then hell lose, a lot, and you will not be able to figure out why, and so it becomes moot. So yes initially it will be very easy to understand, but unless you get that subtley very hard to keep watching, unless your extremely attached to the narrative
3. You must be new here. Read any live stream thread, it tends to generate about 40-80 for small events. Thats pages of text of people interacting. The whole reason anything with sc2 is even happening is becuase of the vast majority of interactions. I would venture to bet that 50% is a low ball number when you look at it. Trolls tend to lock down chat, but in reality skype, vent, or simply having people in your room, is how most of sc is watched
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yeah I don't even own a TV. I'm at college and bought a laptop which enables me to do my school work, watch all the shows I want online, play video games, and watch SC2 
if SC2 did move to the TV i would most definitely go to a friend's place and force mah bronze/silver league friends to watch it tho :D
but yeah I think the target demographic which sc2 appeals to is perfectly fine with watching from online seeing as most of us are online for hours a day.
awesome post and far more realistic
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On April 12 2011 19:13 decemberTV wrote:
You forgot to add in the following factor.
People will watch something for no other reason than the fact that its on TV and has a good storyline.
I think in this regard we need to make a comparison not with Football but with Chess.
Football is easy, 22 guys running around the field chasing a ball. Which is why all men everywhere understand it. Even in european football, the scene is just as much about the fans as it is about the game itself. People will go to the stadium to hear the fans sing and fight eachother and the police rather brutally.
The StarCraft 2 scene is missing EMOTION. We need more players like Idra and we need more hate, more love, more bad manner and in general more INTO YOUR FACE, attitude.
Consider American Wrestling. Its all 100% fake yet its watched because its basically an elaborate theatrical act which the american masses consume.
For people to watch something they don't understand or don't care about (RTS / Chess / Wrestling being fake) you need alot more emotion; good and bad. I'm not saying that SC2 games should be an act like the wrestling scene however.
The SC2 scene right now is incredibly stale. People will root for their own race most of the time. Also because as soon as someone tries to be bad manner he is struck down by the manner hammer of the community.
Even Idra had to publically appologize for what ? For typing some random things to his opponents ?
Think about how highly anticipated Cruncher vs Idra was because of what Idra said in his interview and how amusing it then was to see Idra lose.
Thats good television !!!
If we are always forcing ourselves to be super duper good manner to eachother its impossible for fans to like or dislike. There are no grudges, there is no emotion.
Watching a game between 2 players you care nothing about is absolutely pointless unless you are good enough to see the underlying strategy and tactics which very few people actually are.
The absolute only way to get SC2 on TV and make it interesting for people who don't have a strong interest in the strategy and the tactics is to add emotion.
People are already watching sports on TV where they don't need to think at all. For example the Olympics. Why do people watch the Olympics? Because all the games in the olympics are stupid so what reason is there ?
Running, jumping, throwing... Why would anyone care who can run the fastest or jump the highest ? What they care about is what country wins and how many medals their country can get.
Not only that but its also about race even though nobody will talk about it. Its always amusing to see 1 white guy always come last in the running competitions behind 7 other black guys even though the reason is fairily obvious since we have evolved in 10.000 years to endure long and harsh winters not have good physical contidions for hunting.
Even in SC2 we have this; can foreigners be as good as koreans or are asians better when it comes to hand/eye coordination and strategy ?
Think about what Moon said, "Koreans own white dudes".
Because of this very racist remark whenwe were watching TSL / GSL we always wanted to see if foreigerns can actually do well against Koreans and they did ! And this time Moon had to swallow his words just like Idra vs Cruncher.
Again, bottom line is, our scene is very stale and is of no interest to people who want alot of emotion when watching something on TV. Emotion, both good and bad, is very good for ratings.
Thats just my opinion.
tv is based on views its based on commercials. And the bottom line is commercials are near impossible to do on western tv for an event like sc2. Yes yes i know theyll go but the ratting are so high, but what they will also say is goodbye obrien, we know your ratings are better, but we sell better commercials with jay. Its about profitability and tv just doesnt have it for sc2
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i don't watch tv, and i won't start doing it, even if starcraft2 was broadcasted on it. reading through this thread shows that there are many people just like me, some don't even own a tv. why so many people would want to see videogames on tv, when internet is better in almost every aspect?
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OK ill say it again because evryone is stuck on the, well people will watch it and like it thing. THAT DOES NOT MATTER. Sc2 can have the greatest rating in the world, but no one would give 2 shits if you cant buy a commercial durring that time. TV is a business therefore it will try and make money, the style of game that sc2 does not lend itself to conventional commercials in the west. What it does lend itself to is micro transactions and ads on streams, because regardless of timing length ect, you still have to see that commercial or add. Football has a break every 2-10 minutes for commercials, can you imagine that in sc2, it will not work. No one is saying that it wont be watched, what people are saying is it wont be bought.
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Ok
1. Because games very in length. PVP is short, sometimes, Pvt is long, sometimes, you cant broadcast that with comercials in the west because unlike eastern tv, we dont have block commercial times. We sell our times to be spread out over a program. You cant evenly make that call when ur watching sc, because there is not clock, no 4 minutes left in the 4th quarter. Games can be 6 minutes, or 45 and you may guess sometimes very well you cant really call it (lol proleague has gone over 2 and a half hours once)
Poker games vary in length. They get aired. There's all kinds of different solutions to that problem.
2. Compare the rules in football to the rules in Sc2-Youll see here that where as yes one guy wins and the other guy loses will be easy to get into, whats hard is, why did he win why did he lose. Starcraft is much more subtle than I think you realise. This isn't ok well barcelona possesses the ball more and create more chances so thats why they won. Explaining i timing attack is much more than ok he droned the whole game he won, or hes been attacking so he won (jeez i cant even do examples very well its so difficult.) So initially yes, viewers may be like ok this is new. But true attachment will be much lower, why, because youll see a guy win, and then youll say i like that guy, but then hell lose, a lot, and you will not be able to figure out why, and so it becomes moot. So yes initially it will be very easy to understand, but unless you get that subtley very hard to keep watching, unless your extremely attached to the narrative
Again I get this elitist vibe, I think SC2 is not that hard to follow on a basic level. Oh he lost because he engaged wrong, oh he lost because he overdroned. Surely you can break all that shit down and perhaps find some underlying factors. You can make SC2 as complicated as you want it to be, surely there's a... hmm, a small bump to cross to get to that point where you have a basic understanding.
My entire point basicly is that I don't think that bump is bigger than with any other sport.
3. You must be new here. Read any live stream thread, it tends to generate about 40-80 for small events. Thats pages of text of people interacting. The whole reason anything with sc2 is even happening is becuase of the vast majority of interactions. I would venture to bet that 50% is a low ball number when you look at it. Trolls tend to lock down chat, but in reality skype, vent, or simply having people in your room, is how most of sc is watched
I suppose I am relatively new. However let's take a look then. I recall the TSL having about 40.000 viewers, I also recall 1 of the TSL live threads being about 200 pages long.
20 replies per page.
200x20 = 4000 replies
Even if we'd assume that all those replies are made by 4000 different people, that's still only a 10% show up.
:Edit: If anything your point could be that it's more fun to watch SC2 with other people than it is alone, which is definitely true. However that's the case for every sport. SC2 is not harder to watch alone than any other sport (Which seems to be your point)
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Maybe I missed that, but there is something which makes his statistic completely flawed:
Streaming is global. When there are 30 000 people watcching a game, they come from the whole world: Indonesia, France, US, Mexico, Canada, Bulgaria.
A TV channel is local. It covers one country at best. And most of the time, not even everybody has access to every channel, because even if we talk about America, I don't think Starcraft would be broadcasted on Fox.
I perfectly agree with the OP. And least mainstream starcraft can be, the best it is.
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On April 12 2011 19:33 Linkirvana wrote:Show nested quote +3. You must be new here. Read any live stream thread, it tends to generate about 40-80 for small events. Thats pages of text of people interacting. The whole reason anything with sc2 is even happening is becuase of the vast majority of interactions. I would venture to bet that 50% is a low ball number when you look at it. Trolls tend to lock down chat, but in reality skype, vent, or simply having people in your room, is how most of sc is watched
I suppose I am relatively new. However let's take a look then. I recall the TSL having about 40.000 viewers, I also recall 1 of the TSL live threads being about 200 pages long. 20 replies per page. 200x20 = 4000 replies Even if we'd assume that all those replies are made by 4000 different people, that's still only a 10% show up. :Edit: If anything your point could be that it's more fun to watch SC2 with other people than it is alone, which is definitely true. However that's the case for every sport. SC2 is not harder to watch alone than any other sport (Which seems to be your point)
I don't do LR threads but I think it could be more replies, you are just taking one case, who knows what its like with GSL or MLG or even a different weekend TSL etc.
There is also the IRC, there are people doing their own thing their own channels. I know I let my friends who game know when things are on and they will want to chat with me about what is happening on the screen. Even if it's in small amounts of chat, it's a huge part of enjoying it.
Being able to ask questions, comming home late and it feels like you pull up a chair and sit down while you ask the person next to you: "whats the score now man?" 
Also not everyone posts, for every 100 people posting there are maybe 500 reading. Isn't that a similar form of interactivity? Or atleast added value.
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Couldn't agree more
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On April 12 2011 19:26 Lipski wrote:
i don't watch tv, and i won't start doing it, even if starcraft2 was broadcasted on it. reading through this thread shows that there are many people just like me, some don't even own a tv. why so many people would want to see videogames on tv, when internet is better in almost every aspect?
just go to any GSL LR thread and see how many people are b*%#in about the quality of the stream or the lag or the stream die on them, etc.
Internet is not better for a live broadcast because the infrastructure is not there (yet). While Cable TV have their basic infrastructure set up since way back which make them capable to broadcast live, uninteruppted, high quality audio & video
unless watching SC2 in 360x240 window embedded on some website is the best you'd ever hope for
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I dont know people, if nascar and baseball made it, well...
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I think the only way SC2 on TV could succeed is if it took on the same form Snooker has on eurosport. Laid back, relaxing exposition of games during sunday afternoons. Ditch the high strung hit by hit commentating and go for a slower and easier explanation of builds and unit counters, and comment on mechanical feats if they arise as being great executions of a plan.
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SC2 on TV will never be big indeed but I can see it still getting some airtime on cheap air time perhaps.
If there is one thing that counts for e-sports on TV is that it has a very low production cost. A broadcast of sc2 would be incredibly cheap to make so perhaps it can be run on one of those hours where the networks are running another re-run of some show instead.
I also don't really agree why sc2 can not be cut easily, it would be very easy to chop long games into short ones by just showing the critical opening moves and then showing some critical fights later on. Sure it would lose lots of people who rather watch entire games but it is the same with poker really, poker broadcasts are horrible because they only show all-in hands whereas anyone good at the game hardly cares about those.
E-sports will never be really big on TV or in general though I think. It lacks too many things for that to happen.
First of all the market is way too fragmented, there are hundreds of games over many different genres and thus not one game is anywhere close to the numbers of players sports like football, tennis etc. have.
Secondly, the top players never really have any charisma. They are not attractice, muscled guys but people who sit indoors entire days practicing their game, it just doesn't appeal to the big audience as they aren't the traditional players that can be worshipped. Clans and clubs are also not really comparible in the way people associate with it, it's not like clans have a stadium or any real fanbase that is devoted to the clan regardless of players playing for it like clubs do.
Finally there isn't a single game with as much appeal to viewers as some of the top sports have. There are no astonishing feats of strength or dexterity that anyone that never played the game can enjoy. A headshot in a FPS or a perfect cheese in a RTS just don't compare to a perfect free kick in football or a massive dunk in basketball.
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Lots of your argumentation is flawed, just saying.
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On April 12 2011 19:50 Kralle333 wrote:
Lots of your argumentation is flawed, just saying.
Would you kindly point out those particular flaws for us?
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On April 12 2011 19:33 Linkirvana wrote:Show nested quote +Ok
1. Because games very in length. PVP is short, sometimes, Pvt is long, sometimes, you cant broadcast that with comercials in the west because unlike eastern tv, we dont have block commercial times. We sell our times to be spread out over a program. You cant evenly make that call when ur watching sc, because there is not clock, no 4 minutes left in the 4th quarter. Games can be 6 minutes, or 45 and you may guess sometimes very well you cant really call it (lol proleague has gone over 2 and a half hours once) Poker games vary in length. They get aired. There's all kinds of different solutions to that problem. Show nested quote +2. Compare the rules in football to the rules in Sc2-Youll see here that where as yes one guy wins and the other guy loses will be easy to get into, whats hard is, why did he win why did he lose. Starcraft is much more subtle than I think you realise. This isn't ok well barcelona possesses the ball more and create more chances so thats why they won. Explaining i timing attack is much more than ok he droned the whole game he won, or hes been attacking so he won (jeez i cant even do examples very well its so difficult.) So initially yes, viewers may be like ok this is new. But true attachment will be much lower, why, because youll see a guy win, and then youll say i like that guy, but then hell lose, a lot, and you will not be able to figure out why, and so it becomes moot. So yes initially it will be very easy to understand, but unless you get that subtley very hard to keep watching, unless your extremely attached to the narrative Again I get this elitist vibe, I think SC2 is not that hard to follow on a basic level. Oh he lost because he engaged wrong, oh he lost because he overdroned. Surely you can break all that shit down and perhaps find some underlying factors. You can make SC2 as complicated as you want it to be, surely there's a... hmm, a small bump to cross to get to that point where you have a basic understanding. My entire point basicly is that I don't think that bump is bigger than with any other sport. Show nested quote +3. You must be new here. Read any live stream thread, it tends to generate about 40-80 for small events. Thats pages of text of people interacting. The whole reason anything with sc2 is even happening is becuase of the vast majority of interactions. I would venture to bet that 50% is a low ball number when you look at it. Trolls tend to lock down chat, but in reality skype, vent, or simply having people in your room, is how most of sc is watched
I suppose I am relatively new. However let's take a look then. I recall the TSL having about 40.000 viewers, I also recall 1 of the TSL live threads being about 200 pages long. 20 replies per page. 200x20 = 4000 replies Even if we'd assume that all those replies are made by 4000 different people, that's still only a 10% show up. :Edit: If anything your point could be that it's more fun to watch SC2 with other people than it is alone, which is definitely true. However that's the case for every sport. SC2 is not harder to watch alone than any other sport (Which seems to be your point)
my point is not that its harder to watch alone it was that simply put, more people watch it in some form of together than alone. You counted the number of posts, not the number of views, which tell a much different story (though i realise at that point it much harder to diferentiate reloads ect), but there are way more people that read along than actually post, and that is signifigant. But again that has nothing to do with tv, mereley saying people watch it very socially.
And to put the understanding sc2 simply, there are no points. You can not look at a score (besides how many games someone is up) and you can not count his chips to say he is in the lead.
Barcelona can be up 3 goals and you can easily say jeez they are creaming them, after the game has started. Without the casters (which good casters try to avoid saying who is really ahead or behind for excitement value) you have no clue (again assuming you know nothing), and even they get it wrong. Seeing an advantage in sc2 is harder than seeing and advantage anywhere else, again because if manchester is doing slightly better than chelsea, a goal will tell the tale. Easy to watch, now to the trained eye we can all watch that champions league game and say wow manchester got lucky (opinion i know) but the point is the average joe can go hm manchester is winning. Sc2 is not that easy unless you play it, and even then play it well (well being defined as much more rudimentary than master league, but instead the difference between a top bronze player and a custom game player).
As for commercials, again its the profitability thing. You can show better commercials, by better i mean more expensive, and theyll buy in less frequency in poker. In sc2 you have to have a ton of commercials because of the demographic and perceived value of it. We are not assumed to be a high spending demographic therefore the commercial airtime will be cheaper, and must then be sold more to accommodated. Look at football or baseball. Further sc2 has much more going on than poker, ironically it has a bit of poker in it, between hands go for it, after a table has finished sure. But yu can not show a commercial in the middle of a game, it does not work, and that is what poker does to compensate. It doesnt matter in poker because if a big hand happens they can cut back or even better when they cut to commercial they can stop the game, that can not happen in sc, and is why it is such a headache to edit. In which we come to my original point, lengths of games are different, and since you cant play commercials during, you no longer have stable time to sell
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On April 12 2011 19:41 legatus legionis wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 19:33 Linkirvana wrote:3. You must be new here. Read any live stream thread, it tends to generate about 40-80 for small events. Thats pages of text of people interacting. The whole reason anything with sc2 is even happening is becuase of the vast majority of interactions. I would venture to bet that 50% is a low ball number when you look at it. Trolls tend to lock down chat, but in reality skype, vent, or simply having people in your room, is how most of sc is watched
I suppose I am relatively new. However let's take a look then. I recall the TSL having about 40.000 viewers, I also recall 1 of the TSL live threads being about 200 pages long. 20 replies per page. 200x20 = 4000 replies Even if we'd assume that all those replies are made by 4000 different people, that's still only a 10% show up. :Edit: If anything your point could be that it's more fun to watch SC2 with other people than it is alone, which is definitely true. However that's the case for every sport. SC2 is not harder to watch alone than any other sport (Which seems to be your point) exactly I don't do LR threads but I think it could be more replies, you are just taking one case, who knows what its like with GSL or MLG or even a different weekend TSL etc. There is also the IRC, there are people doing their own thing their own channels. I know I let my friends who game know when things are on and they will want to chat with me about what is happening on the screen. Even if it's in small amounts of chat, it's a huge part of enjoying it. Being able to ask questions, comming home late and it feels like you pull up a chair and sit down while you ask the person next to you: "whats the score now man?" Also not everyone posts, for every 100 people posting there are maybe 500 reading. Isn't that a similar form of interactivity? Or atleast added value.
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I dont even watch tv these days and sc2 on tv would just be absurd, its small units and little details and I wanna watch it on monitor just like I play it.
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If SC does show up on tv I do think it should only be major tournaments as a special on G4 otherwise it wouldn't be worth watching for the general public since the majority of the people already watch it on streams and vods.
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EPT
