EPTHell, I dont even have a TV anymore. Just a big monitor with an HTPC attached to it.
Besides that I totally agree with
In order for a TV game show to be viable, it needs a few things which Starcraft cannot provide without being shit.
Starcraft is big enough for TV to ignore. - Page 11
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cdhstarbuck
Austria84 Posts
Hell, I dont even have a TV anymore. Just a big monitor with an HTPC attached to it. Besides that I totally agree with | ||
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Sensator
Australia377 Posts
On April 12 2011 18:28 Drunkasarous wrote: Shifting towards complete and utter dependency on the internet I feel. We are marching towards our dooms. Or we are marching towards our freedom. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On April 12 2011 18:05 haflo wrote: Money. TV has money , money will make Esport explode : Production Value , Fame for players , Stronger teams and scene etc... If even small television channels had that much money, why are there so many crappy channels out there? Only the super popular channels have an "unlimited" amount of money. Television also needs A LOT more of an investment ... studio, good cameras, cleaning personnel, managers for the studio facility, ... all of these cost a lot and Starcraft can - so far - not give people a 24/7 high quality entertainment. Trying to mix Starcraft with other eSports is a failure as every one of those big IEM events shows ... While some people might enjoy watching a game over and over again, most of us probably watch a game only once ... unless there is some specific thing to learn and then a replay is much more desirable. So the program could not be like those stupid news channels which repeat everything in 15 minute blocks. The bottom line: Starcraft doesnt fit in a schedule which TV stations like to have. There is another reason why it wont work: casters! There are only so many good casters, but who would want to have them bound to a certain TV channel and not available for anything else they might want to do?(*1) Even casters can burn out so you definetely need more than one to cover an event like MLG, GSL or NASL. Thats another big investment. (*1) To prevent casters from NOT being available the TV channel would have to contract them permanently and I think Day[9] or whoever else would be bored if he had to cover or just comment on all the little events that fill the daily TV schedule. | ||
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Railxp
Hong Kong1313 Posts
on topic, im still on the fence, some of the thread's counter arguments seem convincing too. nonetheless, really interesting read. Nice writeup. | ||
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Sensator
Australia377 Posts
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Floobie
England296 Posts
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Linkirvana
Netherlands365 Posts
I wonder though, your key point seems to be (Atleast the one that seemed most significant to me) that SC2 is a "hardcore" game and therefor cannot be broadcasted succesfully on TV due to the impossibility of attracting the average viewer. (Or losing the actual SC2 fans by doing that) That made me wonder: Why would it be harder to follow a SC2 match than follow a professional X sport match on a very basic level? Why is SC2 bound to go into the CS direction TV-wise and not say, in the soccer direction? You give no logical arguments to back up your claims other than "Trust me, I'm a doctor" "1. Easy to edit while maintaining the narrative." Why should this be a problem? Tournaments are able to throw in online commercials? You can simply record people casting replays and pause them whenever you want? "2. Able to target core demographic and casuals simultaneously. " Other sports can do it, SC2 doesn't seem too overly complicated to get into. Grasping the basic idea in SC2 seems about as hard as grasping the basic idea of soccer. From my experience atleast. I also noticed you saying this: "The matches themselves are only about 50% percent of what keeps Starcraft games interesting – the rest is the social experience of knowing you are communicating with thousands of others live and being able to comment on the action at hand." Erhmmm, what? 1 glance at a chat window in any stream will tell you that the vaaaaast majority of people don't give a shit about chitty-chatty. It's all about the action baby, and SC2 delivers in that department. And in my opinion it doesn't take uber rox gaming skill to see that, therefor I think the TV would still be a viable medium to spread the goods. :Edit: Any wrong conclusions I drew in this post I will gladly attribute to my everlasting ignorance. | ||
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Bosscelot
United Kingdom52 Posts
Do you guys get televised snooker, tennis or darts championships over there in the US and Canada? All of those are not exactly suited for the traditional breaks every 12 minutes style of television because games can have wildly different lengths. I mean we've got the BBC which of course has no ads and allows these types of sports to be shown. I do agree with Kennigit and the obsession with getting esports on TV has been annoying me for years now but I was just curious. Oddly enough the UK would be one of the best places to show televised SC if only gaming (especially PC gaming) didn't have an even bigger stigma attached to it than in other countires. | ||
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Roggay
Switzerland6320 Posts
Personnaly I don't mind sc2 not being on TV at all, as I couldnt care less about TV, I barely watch it at all. Most of the stuff on it is completely stupid anyway. | ||
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HuHEN
United Kingdom514 Posts
On April 12 2011 11:25 DazZle. wrote: The picture you paint is grim Kennigit, but I have to agree with you. I dont think so, I dont think starcraft needs TV, in my eyes the future of TV is on demand, on the internet. | ||
Kipsate
Netherlands45349 Posts
You have 22 players on the field, 1 ball, the goal is to play it over the field and score. A Starcraft match is 2 players in a game, with the objective being to destroy each other, but the means of how they do it is not by playing a ball, it is by having a huge amount of variables(Macro, Micro, Mechanics, unit composition, Strategy, map awareness etcetera). Even if you have a caster such as Husky who can bring this over to the community surely it is not enough for them to understand why player A is winning and player B is losing. Are you going to tell a person that he is losing because his probe count is low therefore his resources are low therefore he can't produce enough zealots therefore he can't deal with the marauders therefore he loses the game? While it is incredibly easy for any gamer to understand this, it is not for a casual viewer. And the casual viewer brings in the money for advertisers. On April 12 2011 18:45 Linkirvana wrote: I also noticed you saying this: "The matches themselves are only about 50% percent of what keeps Starcraft games interesting – the rest is the social experience of knowing you are communicating with thousands of others live and being able to comment on the action at hand." You say that this is untrue but look at the most succesfull game in E-sports for the Starcraft Genre, Starcraft Brood War. No matter how entirely shitty the matches are which are played, the players make the game. I couldn't care less if the games are shitty if Jaedong is playing the game , I am watching that game, live. Why do so people stay up to watch the games live?Because they want to see their favorite player duke it out and share the experience with other people live. The community of Starcraft is what makes the game fun for me to watch. Players and the community is what makes E-sport fun. | ||
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Grettin
42393 Posts
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gk_ender
United States717 Posts
On April 12 2011 11:36 echO [W] wrote: I do have a question for you Kennegit, assuming the viewership is there, do you see the possibility of an MBC Game, or Ongamenet type channel coming to cable television in the west? There are plenty of very niche cable channels that manage to stay alive like the Military Channel or G4 (though G4 isn't hard core video game coverage) or the Biography channel, or Investigation Discovery. I do admit that I have no idea the inner workings, profit/loss etc etc of these channels. Or is it simply a cultural divide between something Korea has thats unique to Korea, and immensely difficult to replicate outside of Korea? (the fact that StarCraft is essentially Korea's past time and that you need to reach past-time status to sustain traditional television type programming) it has nothing to do with the culture difference other than the style of commercials. The commercial style sold in the east have more commercial time in single blocks, vs time sold in the west that has several breaks. For example, watch an mbc broadcast and count the commercial breaks, then watch a football game on american tv, youll notice right away the amount and frequency of american commercials vs korean. I do not know exactly how the inner workings go but it seems like in korea they have less types of commercials per show, so when you buy time you say i want my commercial durring this show, so thats why on breaks youll notice the same few commercials. Which makes more money im unsure, but with the volatility of sc, rebroadcasts would be nearly impossible, and live ones would be headaches. Why? Bc pvp is short, pvt is long, but can be short, same can be said for pvz, players styles cause different lengths, and their are no clocks saying you must finish in x time. This is not fox running an old episode of simpsons and family guy on sunday because their may be an over time, this any channel giving up possibly 2 or even (in extreme cases) 3 hours of not only programming but the all important commercial. Now culturally if it sells it sells, but the problem is in western culture jay lenno is seen as more profitable than connan o brien. The secret to this is that advertisement companies in the west have not figured out this generations key, so they would rather sell commercials to companies with more money and whos viewers would spend more (your not going to sell legal advise, or stock advice to the sc audience presumably.) Now is this true? Absolutely not, I am most certain that justin tv will learn to make profits far surpassing nbc primetime, because the internet is much more profitable through micro transactions. But the people with pocket books really don't get this fact yet, so they will probably try yet again, and fail yet again....im rambling at this point oh well | ||
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MrSexington
United States1768 Posts
I watch some TV programs, but all of them online. | ||
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sixfour
England11061 Posts
see no reason for sc2 to move to tv, the current internet methods of broadcasting we have just seem to make more sense. if it does, then i could see it moving forwards via some network showing the early rounds of some tournament over the internet (say something like espn3, coupled with on-demand repeats) with the semis/final on their actual network. that said, the whole distinction of all media is blurring right now so it really doesn't make sense to try to move to tv in the first place. and yes, it'd need to be dumbed down somewhat if you want to make it to a casual audience, kennigit mentions poker in his op and that's basically unwatchable for people who have a clue (even when they're not taking half an hour to tell us a flush beats a straight) as it's moved into a format where it's just all-in all the time, rigged so that big names (i.e. hellmuth) get tv time when they shouldn't, and other games than nlhe may as well not exist as freddy fish couldn't possibly get games where you get four cards or can't bet all your money at once edit at the above post - much the same. the only thing that i watch on tv now is football, anything else i can get online, and i'd probably do that as well if stream qualities were better when i'm not watching at the pub. i have no reason to own a tv | ||
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Divine-Sneaker
Denmark1225 Posts
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nutnut
Norway29 Posts
Besides, what can a TV give me that a computer cant? Im wondering how many have this outlook on tv vs computer. | ||
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decemvre
Romania639 Posts
People will watch something for no other reason than the fact that its on TV and has a good storyline. I think in this regard we need to make a comparison not with Football but with Chess. Football is easy, 22 guys running around the field chasing a ball. Which is why all men everywhere understand it. Even in european football, the scene is just as much about the fans as it is about the game itself. People will go to the stadium to hear the fans sing and fight eachother and the police rather brutally. The StarCraft 2 scene is missing EMOTION. We need more players like Idra and we need more hate, more love, more bad manner and in general more INTO YOUR FACE, attitude. Consider American Wrestling. Its all 100% fake yet its watched because its basically an elaborate theatrical act which the american masses consume. For people to watch something they don't understand or don't care about (RTS / Chess / Wrestling being fake) you need alot more emotion; good and bad. I'm not saying that SC2 games should be an act like the wrestling scene however. The SC2 scene right now is incredibly stale. People will root for their own race most of the time. Also because as soon as someone tries to be bad manner he is struck down by the manner hammer of the community. Even Idra had to publically appologize for what ? For typing some random things to his opponents ? Think about how highly anticipated Cruncher vs Idra was because of what Idra said in his interview and how amusing it then was to see Idra lose. Thats good television !!! If we are always forcing ourselves to be super duper good manner to eachother its impossible for fans to like or dislike. There are no grudges, there is no emotion. Watching a game between 2 players you care nothing about is absolutely pointless unless you are good enough to see the underlying strategy and tactics which very few people actually are. The absolute only way to get SC2 on TV and make it interesting for people who don't have a strong interest in the strategy and the tactics is to add emotion. People are already watching sports on TV where they don't need to think at all. For example the Olympics. Why do people watch the Olympics? Because all the games in the olympics are stupid so what reason is there ? Running, jumping, throwing... Why would anyone care who can run the fastest or jump the highest ? What they care about is what country wins and how many medals their country can get. Not only that but its also about race even though nobody will talk about it. Its always amusing to see 1 white guy always come last in the running competitions behind 7 other black guys even though the reason is fairily obvious since we have evolved in 10.000 years to endure long and harsh winters not have good physical contidions for hunting. Even in SC2 we have this; can foreigners be as good as koreans or are asians better when it comes to hand/eye coordination and strategy ? Think about what Moon said, "Koreans own white dudes". Because of this very racist remark whenwe were watching TSL / GSL we always wanted to see if foreigerns can actually do well against Koreans and they did ! And this time Moon had to swallow his words just like Idra vs Cruncher. Again, bottom line is, our scene is very stale and is of no interest to people who want alot of emotion when watching something on TV. Emotion, both good and bad, is very good for ratings. Thats just my opinion. | ||
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zeru
8156 Posts
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Linkirvana
Netherlands365 Posts
You have 22 players on the field, 1 ball, the goal is to play it over the field and score. A Starcraft match is 2 players in a game, with the objective being to destroy each other, but the means of how they do it is not by playing a ball, it is by having a huge amount of variables(Macro, Micro, Mechanics, unit composition, Strategy, map awareness etcetera). Even if you have a caster such as Husky who can bring this over to the community surely it is not enough for them to understand why player A is winning and player B is losing. Are you going to tell a person that he is losing because his probe count is low therefore his resources are low therefore he can't produce enough zealots therefore he can't deal with the marauders therefore he loses the game? While it is incredibly easy for any gamer to understand this, it is not for a casual viewer. And the casual viewer brings in the money for advertisers. So you really think that being able to follow a basic SC2 match requires some sort of better understanding than what you think the casual viewer will have? To me that sounds very elitist and also very untrue, I highly doubt that less probes > less units > losing the game is more sophisticated than tactic X in say a poker game. Especially considering that the casual viewer of an E-sports channel (Or any casual viewer for that matter of any channel) has atleast SOME gaming background nowadays. To me your argument is invalid because of the nature of an E-sports channel. We're not talking about a primetime slot on SBS6. Because yeah, I wouldn't see that working either. I consider myself to have started off watching SC2 as a casual viewer. The only related experience I had was I played some Brood War back when I was like 10 years old. You say that this is untrue but look at the most succesfull game in E-sports for the Starcraft Genre, Starcraft Brood War. No matter how entirely shitty the matches are which are played, the players make the game. I couldn't care less if the games are shitty if Jaedong is playing the game , I am watching that game, live. Why do so people stay up to watch the games live?Because they want to see their favorite player duke it out and share the experience with other people live. The community of Starcraft is what makes the game fun for me to watch. Players and the community is what makes E-sport fun. I completely disagree. Once again just open a random stream. (I just did: VTGaming, 400 viewers, 80 people in chat.) I'm not going to say that the community is unimportant. What I'm saying here is that it's not necesarry to be entangled into the whole scene to be able to enjoy a game of SC2 on your TV. | ||
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