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On April 12 2011 12:02 Kennigit wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 11:55 imareaver3 wrote:
I'm curious, now, how do MBC and OGN do it? I don't know anything about the logistics of the BW scene, so maybe I'm missing something stupid, but why don't the reasons (Like the impossibility of commercial breaks and general inaccessibility of the game) that seem to logically preclude SC2 on Western TV apply to the Korean TV stations? Is there something fundamentally different about them? Because gaming is much more socially acceptable in South Korea than in the US. You may be surprised to know that an overwhelming majority of fans at live OSL/MSL matches are girls...who don't even have a true appreciation for what is going on. The Korean BW scene masterfully constructed narrative and emotion around the players, and teams. There are so many other shows on MBC/OGN not even related to the matches themselves but rather the casters, players, teams etc. That is what keeps viewers watching MSL/OSL. It is fundamentally different because in Korea you can market gamers with sex appeal/mystique. When IGN released their new promos for IPL i almost had a heart attack that they are trying something similar - it doesn't work in the west.
Ya, I couldnt ever imagine gamers being considered sex symbols in the west. That would be such a huge change from how things are now.
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On April 12 2011 12:07 MLGrben wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 12:02 Kennigit wrote:On April 12 2011 11:55 imareaver3 wrote:
I'm curious, now, how do MBC and OGN do it? I don't know anything about the logistics of the BW scene, so maybe I'm missing something stupid, but why don't the reasons (Like the impossibility of commercial breaks and general inaccessibility of the game) that seem to logically preclude SC2 on Western TV apply to the Korean TV stations? Is there something fundamentally different about them? Because gaming is much more socially acceptable in South Korea than in the US. You may be surprised to know that an overwhelming majority of fans at live OSL/MSL matches are girls...who don't even have a true appreciation for what is going on. The Korean BW scene masterfully constructed narrative and emotion around the players, and teams. There are so many other shows on MBC/OGN not even related to the matches themselves but rather the casters, players, teams etc. That is what keeps viewers watching MSL/OSL. It is fundamentally different because in Korea you can market gamers with sex appeal/mystique. When IGN released their new promos for IPL i almost had a heart attack that they are trying something similar - it doesn't work in the west. Remember that what is "socially acceptable" will change relatively quickly. There is an entire generation of kids that are growing up and they consider being good at SC2 or any other game as impressive as being good at basketball.
A large percentage of that same generation are still going to grow up watching Western TV like Jersey Shore, and music with the message of "Get money, get ho's." A generation of people who don't see gamers as geeks, nerds and losers is far, far away in my opinion.
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On April 12 2011 12:10 ronpaul012 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 12:08 Zlasher wrote:On April 12 2011 12:05 iCCup.Diamond wrote:On April 12 2011 12:02 ronpaul012 wrote:On April 12 2011 11:58 iCCup.Diamond wrote:On April 12 2011 11:56 ronpaul012 wrote:
I'd agree with some of both articles. The main point I have to contribute is that you make the claim that a tv channel could not go 45 minutes without showing a commercial. I'd have to disagree with this, soccer. A half is 45 minutes, and the world cup showed that the sport has a spot in this countries tv. I'd also make a point that they could incorporate sponsorships more. Possibly by putting advertisements on the maps they play on? Sounds weird I know, but most sports put some advertisements around the edge of the playing field. Also mentioning advertisements, or have a statistics pop up at the beginning of the game with some advertisements on them like most sports do. Not trying to whore out esports, but I do believe that lack of advertising time should really be an excuse. Overall though, I definitely believe it would be tough to be on tv. Blizz won't allow ads on maps. maybe not the ads on maps then, but when they do pre-game, or even early game stats showing they could throw an ad on or something. Because those don't pay anywhere near what commercials do, and most TV productions need ample commercials+extras. Yeah its almost silly that ads can cost hundreds of thousands if not millions for 30 seconds, whereas a banner on certain websites will get as much viewership and cost <2% that yeah, but at the same time we cant forget that the cost to produce a starcraft game would not be nearly as high as most sports. So you wouldn't have the need to make as much revenue.
Not really. It's still expensive as hell for a TV station to run a baseball game they don't do anything other then broadcast for. You would still need sat trucks, a studio, ample quality help, etc to broadcast to TV. You can't just fire up Xsplit and enter the cable station's RMTP server and go.
Plus you would have to have board meetings about it, and focus groups, and blah blah blah.
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Agree, I was there during the CPL and CS1.6 boom and watched it fail miserably, and the viewership for those games through HLTV and the like were much higher than SC2 currently. I think the impossible task of editing SC2 and the international fan base really make it unlikely to see the game on TV, and I'm honestly OK with that.
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so i just read both articles - the sixjax one is about numbers and numbers only - kinda annoying - i mean they matter sure - but thats basicly about it - no depth no 2nd view about whats goign on behind the scenes
i liked that kennigit was talking about the alternative IPTV - i would love to see some more on that part - the reason because the starcraft community is so big is the internet -
but still i think there are some possbilities for sc2 to be broadcasted on tv in the next 1-5 years. i'm not talking something like ESPN SCII or something similar (btw im not that familiar with the american tv scene) but i think, there is always a niche - something like the weather channel might still be sort of mainstreams, but there are actually quite a lot of tv channels out there in the whole wide world - so why not just add another sc channel - im not talking beeing super professional with 10s of thousands of viewers im talking on a more amateur level
one example here in berlin is a tv channel called "tv berlin" and on that tv channel you can apply for some air time. im not sure if this is still true but it was like 9 years ago (i dont watch it anymore) but our high school had some sort of talk show going on where we were discussing gouvernment funding of the school system - 1 week later i saw 2 guys throwing tennisballs at each other for 2 hours. the show had great feedback btw!
and if this can happen everything can happen. its all about expectations. no need to go super global, national or even regional. why not start with local? have live sc2 event been broadcasted on super small tv station where it doesnt even matter what they broadcast because those guys arent doomed to bring in some numbers etc. having a show of 2-3 hours run once a week on a thursday at 4 pm or smth liek that
why am i talking about this? i just want to say that there are a lot of possibilites out there in the whole wide world  saying 'wootz, our numbers are so great we should be on cable' (and yeah comparing footbal (some people call it soccer, LOL) with sc2 is just ridiculously absurd) but saying this will and should not happen on regular tv atm. maybe on iptv later is the only soultion, is an opionen i cannot absolutly concure. Ya there is tv programm and ya there are tv channels out there that demand a certain amount knowledge - its not all super duper casual friendly.
im just saying a lot of/all projects that were run in the past to bring sc/esports on tv might have been run in the wrong time/country/format. this could change
But i think - hey its the internet - its easy to access easy to use and everybody finds what he or she wants to find - sc2 will get bigger but this will happen because of people like you (you reading this post) and me not because we are on tv.
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This managed to make me happy and sad at the same time. Well done.
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Although I agree that Starcraft isn't really built for television I don't see commercials being a problem. Why not just run a flexible commercial schedule the way Ongamenet does? are the ways TV advertising is handled really that different between Korea and the US that that style couldn't be emulated?
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Was waiting for this as soon as I saw the original comment on twitter. A lot of good points made, and a lot of misconceptions brought into perspective!
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man that sixjax article really does not work
like people said the numbers can't be the sole reason
Also look at the parent networks of the TV stations that only drwa about 17,000 viewers on weekends
VH1, ESPN, and FUSE (who is owned by MSG entertainment)
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I have seen BW games I think casted by Tastesless on TV. Way back when, I had this channel that showed nothing but video game(gameplay) on dish network. They had all kinds of tournament content on that channel. From counter strike to halo. I liked it but it doesn't exist any more.
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On April 12 2011 12:08 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:lol... Show nested quote +2. Able to target core demographic and casuals simultaneously.
The very strategic nature of Starcraft alienates a lot of viewers. I think we have made huge strides opening the door over the past few years via the work of Day[9], Husky, the SC2GG guys – but it's really not enough. As a viewer, I need to be able to be flicking by a station and within 2-3 minutes understand exactly whats going on even if i've never played. Again though, i believe there is an overwhelming amount of evidence to suggest that "hardcore" games are not able to target hardcore games and casual TV audiences simultaneously. You are able to tune into a sport like football and know the strategy and how to play it? I sure don't know all the basic rules to pretty much every major sport. Also, when he said "IPTV" i thought it stood for IGN Proleague TV for a second, aww ;( lol
i never use to know alot of the rules for sports. But i can still watch the game and instantly understand what is going on and the goals of both sides. If someone tunes into a sc match in the first 5 mins of a game where its mostly just building with maybe a few pokes..if you never played the game you wouldnt have a clue.
I dont think esports is ment for tv. I was there for all of cgs and the "flagship" for esports at the time cs failed miserably and was cut down for the second season because the viewership didnt understand what was going on. And i had a chance to talk to some of the players and what they were telling me....eeeek
I think tv is slowly dieing so why would you want something that needs to grow to use a "outdated" tool. Sure it will be a long time before tv's arent around anymore...but i will say the one good thing about the cgs is you actually got to see the passion tweens and younger had for gaming, it was pretty amazing and shows that esports has a bright future. Getting SC on tv wont instantly make it blow up its going to take a long time and have a viewer base who grew up with it for it to get huge.
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On April 12 2011 12:19 The_Piper42 wrote:
Although I agree that Starcraft isn't really built for television I don't see commercials being a problem. Why not just run a flexible commercial schedule the way Ongamenet does? are the ways TV advertising is handled really that different between Korea and the US that that style couldn't be emulated?
No, not even close, that's not how American Television works. It's all about the commercials and $$$.
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Personally, I would be fine if SC stayed on streams, youtube videos, ect. I mean, to be honest, I have completely stopped watching Television all together. Streams come with an internet connection and are cheaper then television channel packages.
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Korea seems a lot stricter on the use of frequent advertisements in their programming. I doubt you would ever see that here.
Korea, South
Under the current rules, terrestrial channels cannot take in-program commercial breaks. So, the advertisements are usually put between the intro and the start of a program, and between the end credits and the end of the program. Terrestrial channels often divide some longer-length films like The Ten Commandments into parts and consider each part as an individual program. Terrestrial channels can take commercial breaks during breaks in action during sporting events.
Pay-television channels can take in-program commercial breaks, although some pay channels schedule advertisement in the same way that terrestrial channels do.
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I think SC2 will fail if it were to be on TV, but I think that you could make commercials work. They would have to be like ads on youtube, where there is a little pop up at the bottom of the tv screen. Yes that would be annoying, and I think you would have to get the commentators say the sponsors name a lot like tasteless does on GSL. but I think it could work with the pop ups, you wouldn't miss the game, and you would still have commercials to pay for it.
Traditional commercials can't work with SC2. "Dick" mentioned sports as a comparison. The reason that it works with sports if that they have timeouts and fouls and official reviews etc that "PAUSE" the game. I don't know how an official pausing of a SC2 game would work, or if for the sake of TV you give players the ability to take "Timeouts" to sort through their thoughts or whatever, but I don't think it will work with SC2 on TV.
The reason I think it will fail is people associated with the game are typically at their computers, and not on their TV. Ratings will suffer and it will fail and get cancelled. tbh I find out about things by twitter and clicking on TL or surfing Reddit. I can't do that on my TV (If I had a google tv, which I don't, I could.)
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Katowice25012 Posts
On April 12 2011 12:07 MLGrben wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 12:02 Kennigit wrote:On April 12 2011 11:55 imareaver3 wrote:
I'm curious, now, how do MBC and OGN do it? I don't know anything about the logistics of the BW scene, so maybe I'm missing something stupid, but why don't the reasons (Like the impossibility of commercial breaks and general inaccessibility of the game) that seem to logically preclude SC2 on Western TV apply to the Korean TV stations? Is there something fundamentally different about them? Because gaming is much more socially acceptable in South Korea than in the US. You may be surprised to know that an overwhelming majority of fans at live OSL/MSL matches are girls...who don't even have a true appreciation for what is going on. The Korean BW scene masterfully constructed narrative and emotion around the players, and teams. There are so many other shows on MBC/OGN not even related to the matches themselves but rather the casters, players, teams etc. That is what keeps viewers watching MSL/OSL. It is fundamentally different because in Korea you can market gamers with sex appeal/mystique. When IGN released their new promos for IPL i almost had a heart attack that they are trying something similar - it doesn't work in the west. Remember that what is "socially acceptable" will change relatively quickly. There is an entire generation of kids that are growing up and they consider being good at SC2 or any other game as impressive as being good at basketball.
For some reference, baseball was considered a stupid game for kids for the first half century of its existence, decades after the first professional teams were formed. The first part of the Ken Burns documentary has a ton of great quotes from super early famous player's parents talking about how much they hate their choice to try to play a game for a living.
Ultimately I don't know if I agree with the conclusion of "never", but that time is certainly not now and its certainly not in our near future. Stigmas get lessened every year etc etc, I do think it will eventually hit a point where these kinds of stories are possible but its decades away at best.
Very good writeup.
This promotion has nothing to do with the actual fight – it's about the narrative/story of the fighters. This kind of emotion and narrative is what event producers should be striving to create online and on IPTV in the future.
This has always bugged the shit out of me, people in production for video games totally miss that story a huge percentage of the time. Every game I've ever played, I've stayed in the community and followed what happens because of the narratives and personalities involved. I don't know shit about MMA but enjoy watching fights because I get to see the next chapter of each person's story unfold. This should be obvious to anyone in marketing and management but all too often with video games we get people trying to tell us why the game itself is all thats relevant.
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Actually awhile back, TV shows used to never show commercials in program either in the U.S. until someone thought it was more profitable to show more commercials
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IPTV is going to be awesome when it hits. I'll sign up for the esports channel when it comes around.
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Whats wrong with having commercials in between games? Also I think everything is fine just the way it is... There is already tv on the internet and pretty soon people will only watch it on the computer so I think that starcraft is already a head of the game
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51272 Posts
On April 12 2011 11:55 imareaver3 wrote:
I'm curious, now, how do MBC and OGN do it? I don't know anything about the logistics of the BW scene, so maybe I'm missing something stupid, but why don't the reasons (Like the impossibility of commercial breaks and general inaccessibility of the game) that seem to logically preclude SC2 on Western TV apply to the Korean TV stations? Is there something fundamentally different about them?
ogn/mbc aren't limited to the broadcasting limitations they have to deal with in the western world. unlike the cgs, they aren't forced by their parent companies to limit their production into time blocks to fit scheduling requirements (a benefit of being a cable channel), therefore no stupid ass modifications having to be done. also as some said, korea does advertisements differently compared to the west (longer period of time, but not as often).
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