EPTon a side note:
calling it SS makes me think of other things then social security.
What if certain taxes were voluntary? - Page 3
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betaV1.25
425 Posts
on a side note: calling it SS makes me think of other things then social security. | ||
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mcc
Czech Republic4646 Posts
On February 01 2011 22:24 [Eternal]Phoenix wrote: What OP is suggesting is basically turning the gov't into a private competitor in investment/retirement. People have been suggesting this for a long time, and quite frankly, it's stupid. Why? You can just invest privately and reap better benefits. Nobody should seriously believe in SS anymore, one of the most broken systems in the world, and one of the biggest sources of entitlement debt that is slowly killing this country. Medicare/medicaid serve good purposes, but why have medicare if you can just not pay as much in taxes? Look at the budget for entitlements and the welfare state in the US. It's outrageous and unsustainable. Privatization is the only real option without turning the US into a 80% income tax socialist nightmare. If you wanna live like that, go ahead, Europe has plenty of room for you. =D I would love to see the country in Europe with 80% income tax for general population, actually even 80% tax for the highest tax bracket. | ||
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Slytech
United States16 Posts
You see the thing with social security is that it is a flawed system. I'm putting my money in now, for the people who are pulling it out now. I'm not putting it in for myself for when I'm 67 years old. Also in the industry I work in, supermarket retail, I see on a day to day basis what my tax dollars are going towards. It is absolutely infuriates me to no end to see who goes on these "government assistance programs". I'm not trying to spark political debate but there are people who in the United States are on food stamps, at least in my state, that don't need to be. Especially people who haven't payed in what I have. So yes, I have a problem with paying into a system that is probably going to bankrupt before I get to see its benefits. I believe social security was created for a specific need during the Great Depression and should have ended there. | ||
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NoobSkills
United States1591 Posts
On February 01 2011 16:56 madcow305 wrote: Poll: Would you participate in voluntary tax programs, like Social Security? No (360) Yes (105) 465 total votes Your vote: Would you participate in voluntary tax programs, like Social Security? What if things like Social Security, Medicare, etc were voluntary? By this, I mean that you have the option to not participate in this program offered by the government. You could waive your SS tax, and in return you wouldn't get any money from the government once you retire. If these programs were optional, would you participate in them? Personally, I wouldn't. I've always seen Social Security as the government taking a percentage of your pay, and putting it away for you, so that when you retire you'll have income. I believe I'm responsible enough to manage my own finances, and don't need to government to do it for me. The majority Americans wouldn't even put a dime into social security. The majority Americans would also not invest that money they would just spend it. Unfortunately despite that I know I could do better with my money than the US government it is a definite that this program must be in place. Perhaps ease up on the amount of money, but when everyone 65+ starts not being able to work and doesn't have a plan it will bog down their family members which in turn not only could break the bank, but prevent them from investing in their future. Now, if we could just stop the government from fucking around with that money we would be all good. | ||
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Treemonkeys
United States2082 Posts
"I'm going to point a gun at your head so you will give me your money, but it's for your own good." | ||
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BarnabeJonez
United States23 Posts
However, if the United States was founded as a socialist republic, I would probably be saying the exact opposite. | ||
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Darksteel
Finland319 Posts
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ComusLoM
Norway3547 Posts
Sure a lot of people cheat the system, but that doesn't mean you abandon the means for many to live, you just simply have to police it better and barr those who do cheat the system. The problem with the type of scum in society who would cheat welfare is that it would be more expensive to put them into the prison system. So unless government brings back capital punishment en masse (which I support simply because some people are beyond help and putting them in prison for life costs extraordinary amounts of money) there has to be some way for prisons to make money rather than just lose it. | ||
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betaV1.25
425 Posts
On February 01 2011 23:09 Treemonkeys wrote: Then they wouldn't be called taxes, they would be called donations. The fact that governments have to use violence to force their programs shows how flawed they are. It's just a scam really. "I'm going to point a gun at your head so you will give me your money, but it's for your own good." You know how much the funding the army/police would be if people would have been given a choise to pay or not to pay taxes that go to the army/police? You basicly have to put a gun against their head and tell them... it's for your your own security. This basicly show the flaws in their programs, or your reasoning i forget. | ||
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BroodjeBaller
125 Posts
On February 01 2011 23:09 Treemonkeys wrote: Then they wouldn't be called taxes, they would be called donations. The fact that governments have to use violence to force their programs shows how flawed they are. It's just a scam really. "I'm going to point a gun at your head so you will give me your money, but it's for your own good." Hmm in what african country do you live? | ||
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Treemonkeys
United States2082 Posts
On February 01 2011 23:16 betaV1.25 wrote: You know how much the funding the army/police would be if people would have been given a choise to pay or not to pay taxes that go to the army/police? You basicly have to put a gun against their head and tell them... it's for your your own security. This basicly show the flaws in their programs, or your reasoning i forget. You would have to actually convince people that you were doing a good job of handling their money, and that your services were needed, which almost every government is doing a pathetic job of right now. You can count yourself with one of humanity that is too stupid to know how to take care of itself, but I'm not one of those. There isn't any reason to argue about specifics, because it's already clear that you want to pay, and want others to be forced to pay. So don't talk about my reasoning, when your "reasoning" is using violence to force people. That isn't reasoning, that is brute force that says fuck all reasoning. | ||
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Treemonkeys
United States2082 Posts
On February 01 2011 23:17 BroodjeBaller wrote: Hmm in what african country do you live? What does that have to do with anything? | ||
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[Eternal]Phoenix
United States333 Posts
On February 01 2011 23:00 mcc wrote: I would love to see the country in Europe with 80% income tax for general population, actually even 80% tax for the highest tax bracket. I'm not saying that Europe has 80% income tax, but the US will need 80% income tax to continue this rate of debt accumulation as a result of the welfare state. Just look at the damn budget and tell me how that's going to balance itself. We only have 1 other option which is to inflate the dollar silly by printing money to cover the debts, which basically accomplishes the same thing - make everyone in the US poorer. The US does however have one of, and I believe soon to be, the highest corporate tax rates. What I say has nothing to do with right or left wing, it has to do with logic and economics. Look at the budget. Look what eats up most of it. It's not wars, defense, security. It's not public education. It's almost all going to welfare programs. The current solution to budget problems is to ignore them, how is that a viable fiscal policy? | ||
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mcc
Czech Republic4646 Posts
 , not that it will convince anyone ). | ||
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Treemonkeys
United States2082 Posts
On February 01 2011 23:25 mcc wrote: Some posters think of Medicare and Social Security as services that will provide them directly with some benefits. But their point should be safety net, because if you get rid of them, what are you going to do with the big percentage of people that will be stupid enough or unlucky enough to be crippled by medical debt or no money in old age. Are you going to let them rot on the street or die ? Charities won't cut it, and so some of these people will turn to crime others will be begging. So think of it as paying for lowering likelihood of being robbed or killed and avoiding the inconvenience of tripping on dead bodies on the street (This is slightly satirical, because for most people ethical argument supported by reality that most people are irresponsible and stupid is enough to see the need for those programs to be mandatory, but for libertarian extremists argument based on selfish interest has to be provided , not that it will convince anyone ).Charities won't cut it? Wow, I am so convinced. People really still think the US government is responsible and cares about them? Really? | ||
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BroodjeBaller
125 Posts
On February 01 2011 23:22 Treemonkeys wrote: What does that have to do with anything? On February 01 2011 23:09 Treemonkeys wrote: The fact that governments have to use violence to force their programs "I'm going to point a gun at your head so you will give me your money, but it's for your own good." This only happens africa | ||
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mcc
Czech Republic4646 Posts
On February 01 2011 23:24 [Eternal]Phoenix wrote: I'm not saying that Europe has 80% income tax, but the US will need 80% income tax to continue this rate of debt accumulation as a result of the welfare state. Just look at the damn budget and tell me how that's going to balance itself. We only have 1 other option which is to inflate the dollar silly by printing money to cover the debts, which basically accomplishes the same thing - make everyone in the US poorer. The US does however have one of, and I believe soon to be, the highest corporate tax rates. What I say has nothing to do with right or left wing, it has to do with logic and economics. Look at the budget. Look what eats up most of it. It's not wars, defense, security. It's not public education. It's almost all going to welfare programs. The current solution to budget problems is to ignore them, how is that a viable fiscal policy? Well last part of your statement implied exactly that, but ok. But you know that current tax level in US is probably the lowest in century or even more. So small increase, with some reasonable spending cuts would actually close the deficit gap. | ||
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Electric.Jesus
Germany755 Posts
1. It is economically rational to "defect", that is not to pay and hope that others will do. 2. You get to see little benefit from your individual payment, that is, the contigency between effort and reward is low. This redcues individual motivation to pay taxes. 3. You risk being the sucker that pays for the free-riders. The sucker-effect is known to reduce individual motivation to contribute to the group. There are probably more reasons why a voluntary tax system does not work. The nly way that they reliably work is with social contro and punishment for defectors which is why the established systems seem to work to some degree. | ||
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Treemonkeys
United States2082 Posts
On February 01 2011 23:28 BroodjeBaller wrote: This only happens africa Yeah, they don't exactly point the gun right at your head, at least not at first, but it's the same thing. Try not paying your taxes if you don't believe me, you'll end up with a gun pointed at your head sooner or later, unless you comply. | ||
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mcc
Czech Republic4646 Posts
On February 01 2011 23:27 Treemonkeys wrote: Charities won't cut it? Wow, I am so convinced. People really still think the US government is responsible and cares about them? Really? Private companies will provide better services than government ? Wow, I am so convinced. You see I can do the same. Your statements are also opinions like mine and are in their current form also nothing more than 'because I say so'. We could discuss the ability of charities to provide necessary funds, but it would lead nowhere since there is no proof only some partial indicators and that will not convince you, so why bother. And I do not think that any government is responsible or cares. Do not personalize the government, it is a system/tool and not a person. Some governments work better some worse, yes in first world seems American one is one of the more dysfunctional, but that does not mean it cannot be fixed. | ||
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