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France8043 Posts
Kinda random rambling, nothing really worth reading if you are not interested by 2v2 at low level.
I have always prefered 2v2 over 1v1 and after stopping Sc2 i wanted to give it a shot again.
My max on Iccup was C a couple of seasons ago but now my old ally is playing Sc2 UMS so i was alone on Iccup without any partner to ladder.
After getting back in shape ( lol ) with some Race wars / BGH / Hunt games i started to ladder a bit in 2v2 with random allies.
D ranks were really easy for me. People here have serious macro issues, poor unit control, bad build orders but even worse they have 0 teamplay. Sometimes it almost feel like you are playing an FFA.
So i was able to hit D+ quickly even if my allies were terrible. I was just macroing and rolling over them with zealgoon. The players here are what i call the "first group", people with poor knowledge of the game and atrocious mechanics. Those guys are between E and C-
D+ was a bit harder and i started to drop more games and because i had to play people who belong to group 2. Those guys have usually some experience with the game, they know the basic 2v2 build orders ( 9 pool speed, 2 gates zeze etc ... ). However their knowledge and their mechanics are far from being perfect. They will often try to attack a ramp with a lot of sunkens, they will have trouble to macro properly when they get their third, their muta micro is mediocre etc... Usually their rank is around C- / C+
The teamplay is also quite poor. It is basicly rushing or trying to get map control. Coordination is really lacking.
I think that i belong to this group and all my previous allies too.
I started to lose more and more especially after getting to C-.
At that point you have to realize that it is really hard to climb up the rank if you are not picky about your allies.
When you play with a C- Z with a 40% win ratio who dies to a 9 pool + 1 zeal poke you know that it won't be easy to beat a semi decent C team.
Got some really bad allies but i also managed to get a game with a good C+ who had a B+ rank the previous season. Sadly i didn't ask him to add me to play more. I have missed an opportunity...
After more terrible games with players of "group 1" i got lucky again i joined a game with a C- Z. Game went pretty well, my ally gave me some really good tips and he was always pinging the right place to attack.
He asked me to play more and i started to chat a bit with him. Basicly this guy had a lot of accounts and it seems that he stops to play when he gets to B-. I guess he waits the end of the season to get to B or higher but i'm not too sure about it. Maybe he doesn't like to play people higher than "group 2", the experienced 2v2 players who have their own regular ally. I will call them group 3 ( b- and higher ). There are probably some others groups with better players ( Let's say A- and higher ) but i haven't played with them so i don't really know what's the main difference between A- and B- 2x2. Well actually i know the difference it is better knowledge and mechanics but what i mean is that i haven't experienced it yet.
Anyway we started to mass game and wow i really felt the difference. We were still playing guys from "group 1" and "group 2" but it was really one sided. We went 19-3. The 3 losses were one disco and two games where he played PP ( really bad combo compared to PZ in my opinion, especially on gaia).
I have never played games like that. I just had to macro and micro he was telling me everything, where to attack, what to do next etc...
With previous allies we had no idea about what to do, we would just try to kill one player ( usually the z) and basicly if we could not break the ramp it was game. Now with this guy i know when i have to back up, when i have to trade my zeals for drones or for the spire and when i have to expand or to switch to goons. It is hard to express but it is a huge confidence boost. Even if you don't always understand what is going on you know that your ally will tell you the right thing to do. It is an amazing feeling to play with a 2v2 player more experienced than you.
I told him i have always wanted to hit a blue rank and he was like "okay let's do it you will be B- soon". He showed me a weird way about abusing the ladder. It seems to be a known trick among 2v2 players. One guy level this main account and the other guy keep playing with low D/D+ alts. This way you can get quickly to B- by Playing C- <-> C+ players. I kinda feel bad about it now since it means that the B- will only mean C/C+ imo. But well i'm still learning a lot with this guy so i'm still happy.
However i have a problem with this guy... he is from Peru... if you have some experiences with South Americans players you know that there are a "stigma" around them. Furthermore he doesnt use AH
Now it gets really suspicious eh ?
I have tried to ask him why he doesn't use AH and he aswered in broken english " i use Spanish 1.5 ".
Really shady eh. Now if the guy was bm or if i had some concrete proofs about a possible maphack i would stop to play with him immediately. But i have none and the guy seems really gm and friendly (maybe it is the "jajaja xD" type afterall... ). I had also some problems to make my French hotkeys work with the Iccup launcher so well i guess i will give him the benefit of the doubt. Innocent until proven guilty. I mean yea his game sense seems amazing for me but i have never played with good regular 2v2 guys so i can't tell if it is a maphack or experience.
I will try to take a look at the replays with bwchart and tell him how to use his Spanish hotkeys on Iccup with the launcher if i can remember the trick tomorrow.
I don't really want to /f remove him because he is my first ally of "group 3" and well i'm learning a lot 
Anyway since there are some people here who know a lot about the 2v2 scene ( i'm thinking of metal[x] for example ), i wanted to know if you have more infos about that guy:
http://www.iccup.com/starcraft/teams/23464.html
Most of the accounts in the team are his alts.
If he is a known hacker i will insta /f remove though.
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u link to a team, not a guy 
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France8043 Posts
On January 10 2011 00:54 Boblion wrote:
Most of the accounts in the team are his alts.
Prove / Drone / Gatubela / Patito / Pollito are the same.
Jamescito seems to be another guy since we played against him together.
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I don't understand. How do you get to B- without antihack?
Last time I checked, you couldn't get a game past C- if you didn't have antihack.
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France8043 Posts
On January 10 2011 00:54 Boblion wrote:
He showed me a weird way about abusing the ladder. It seems to be a known trick among 2v2 players. One guy level this main account and the other guy keep playing with low D/D+ alts. This way you can get quickly to B- by Playing C- <-> C+ players. I kinda feel bad about it now since it means that the B- will only mean C/C+ imo.
Not a "true" B-
If you play with 2 C+ accounts you will have to play 2 C+ account to get +130.
But if you play with one C+ and one D or D+ you will get +130 vs 2 C-
It is a form of abusing in my opinion. But it seems allowed and fairly common among 2v2 players.
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The reason he stops at B- is because at B- and higher people stop being noob enough to play without AH. So its very hard for him to find games or allies anymore. Also, blue rank games and higher you usually need to set up at channel. Pub blue rank games are hard to find.
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France8043 Posts
Just looked at the replays. No hotkeys, apm between 120 and 250 split on 5ms -.-
Moral of the story: never trust Peruvians.
/clearstats
P-S: if you are a legit C 2v2 player feel free to add me. ( ID: boblion ).
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Croatia9446 Posts
Yeah, 2v2 can definitely be a lot of fun if you find the right ally to play with. Only thing I don't like about high level 2v2 is the matchups. Usually PZ v TZ, which is not even that bad comparing to the most boring matchup of all time, TZ v TZ.
Anyways, if you want some fun 2v2 replays to watch, I recently made a reppack of me and my ally, you can check it out here.
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France8043 Posts
Thanks a lot man, i have only watched three games so far but it is really interesting ( i will watch more later ). You are definitly in "group 3" :p
I have a couple of questions:
- When play PZ vs PT i had a lot of success when my ally go 4 pool and manner pylon the T to prevent his wall. Does it work at higher levels ?
- If i play PZ or PT vs ZZ i always have to make sairs ( i'm P ) ?
- Mass Goons or zeal + archives tech in PZ vs PZ ?
- PP vs TZ = worst match up on low maps ?
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Croatia9446 Posts
On January 11 2011 05:15 Boblion wrote:
- When play PZ vs PT i had a lot of success when my ally go 4 pool and manner pylon the T to prevent his wall. Does it work at higher levels ?
I don't know if it would work on higher levels, but cheesy play like that can work at most 1 game -.-
How I like to play PZ vs PT is the same how I play it on Hunters or BGH. Z goes 9pool/overpool or even 12pool, while P must go fg (fast goons) build. I don't really know how known is the fg build on low maps, but it's one of the most important builds on Hunters/BGH. The general idea is to get to at least 3 Gateways while constantly producing goons, before making another tech building (citadel, robotics etc.). With lings from Z, who must have a considerable amount of lings btw, and goons from P, you're effectively having a complete map control. On Hunters/BGH this is of absolute importance, while on low maps it's little less important since it's easier to defend at ramps, but it still worked for me and my ally when we would play.
So when you have map control, you just deny your opponents from combining their forces, while constantly searching for window of opportunity when you could double 1 guy and hopefully take him down. And if T goes m&m, tech to dt's and if he goes tech, make observer ^^
On January 11 2011 05:15 Boblion wrote:
- If i play PZ or PT vs ZZ i always have to make sairs ( i'm P ) ?
It depends on how the ZZ plays. But one thing I learned from playing against ZZ teams is that almost always they will try to double one of you to make it 1v2 as early as possible. Whether it's the mass lings from both of the Z's to take down your ally or very fast muta etc. So you have to play extra careful against ZZ, because even when you think you're safe, you're probably not. What I liked to do when I was P vs ZZ is to go 1gate->corsair build which is (was?) popular in 1v1's. So make 3 zealots to close your ramp while fast teching to corsairs. Fast corsair is good to scare the Z who is going muta, but I would suggest only making a few of corsairs to help your Z ally with his muta, while going mass ground units. If you dedicate to making a lot of +1 attack corsairs, you will have too few units to defend (or help your ally) against hydras which other Z will probably go.
Generally, I always played vs ZZ the same as I would play 1v1 PvZ, but just without the fe (some times I even tried fe, but didn't always work -.-).
On January 11 2011 05:15 Boblion wrote:
- Mass Goons or zeal + archives tech in PZ vs PZ ?
This totally depends on your preference in my opinion. I almost always preferred to go mass goons, because I was very comfortable by constantly microing them vs zeals+lings (this is evident of Hunters/BGH players -.-). But zealot speed + archives is also a viable choice in this matchup so do that if you're more comfortable at making a couple of canons on your ramp and going for speed lots, which doesn't require as much microing as goons.
On January 11 2011 05:15 Boblion wrote:
- PP vs TZ = worst match up on low maps ?
Yeah, pretty much.
It's because Z is the most annoying thing in this matchup. First he builds lings so you can't make goons to take care of T, then later he builds muta and annoys the shit out of you while T rolls you over ^^.
What you could theoretically do in this matchup is 1 P goes 2 gates goons and other goes 1 gate goons, but making 3 zealots first. Then you try to contain Z in his base by making zeal wall on his ramp. But the flaw in this is that Z will probably 9 pool, so he will try to pick out your stray zealots so you can't close him in. Or he will go 12pool but make 2nd hatch at his ramp so he will be able to break out pretty soon. But if you manage to close him in with zeals pretty fast, and manage to get goons out before T gets vults (assuming he will go tech, which is most probable in this matchup), then you could even win this game. The key to win would be to hold them both closed in until you get considerable amount of goons (7-8) and then go Zerg with all. You should have like 7-8 zealots and just as much goons, so you could break his 3-4 sunkens + lings. But I don't know really, this is purely theoretical scenario, so there's no point to go any further.
I think you can find pretty much any variation of matchups in that reppack, so you can see how me and my ally played ^^
Our main characteristics were early harass, map control, mass units (the very same characteristics of pretty much any (high level?) Hunters/BGH player -.-).
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France8043 Posts
Thanks a lot for the answers.
I watching more of your reps and it is pretty good. I can't believe you almost won with TT vs the IFU guys with PZ lol. Must feel good when you can play all three races at that level :p
I have also another question:
When you make your mass goon bo do you cut probes ?
Still grinding at D+
>.<
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Croatia9446 Posts
On January 11 2011 11:52 Boblion wrote:
I have also another question:
When you make your mass goon bo do you cut probes ?
No. Cutting probes was only necessary in p-wars on Hunters, while on all other maps I prefer to get 3rd pylon before 3rd gateway.
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France8043 Posts
Had a lot of fun playing with metal[x] and other TL guys last night. It is so enjoyable when you have a reliable ally :3
Currently C-, will try to get to C tonight.
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EPT
