180 x (ingame minutes the fortress is up + 15secs) in minerals ("loss" from not having those additional mules)
and 150 gas
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fkt
Austria2 Posts
180 x (ingame minutes the fortress is up + 15secs) in minerals ("loss" from not having those additional mules) and 150 gas | ||
GoldenH
1115 Posts
On December 02 2010 00:00 Trang wrote: Show nested quote + On December 01 2010 23:36 GoldenH wrote: On December 01 2010 18:16 [F_]aths wrote: If something has no cost, then you would have no disadvantage if you just waste it. If you get the chance to get $270 over 9 days ($30 each day, 9 times) or borrow glasses which let you see through woman's clothes on the street for 12 hours (then the glasses will get black so you cannot use them any longer) and you choose to get the glasses, then you give up on $270 for this. It's more like, you have a choice, - $270 now - The Stock Market activity for the next hour and $270 tommarow. Assuming you're going to be able to expand whenever you want is a very bad assumption. Only if your opponents are terrible. You have to compare the same time periods. With your analogy it's: - $270 now and $270 tomorrow; or - the Stock Market activity for the next hour and $270 tomorrow. Like [F_]aths has said, and like I said in my previous post, if there is no cost then there is no reason not to scan. Clearly the fact that you think twice before scanning means there is a cost. I still don't know how anybody is seriously disputing that there is a mineral opportunity cost to scanning. The real question is how much the cost is. If we continue on from your example. The real questions are: - How much more is $270 now worth than $270 tomorrow? - How much is seeing the Stock Market activity for the next hour worth? No, you don't get $270 tomorrow, you only get it once. The time periods are considered, that's why you only get an hour of scan. As long as you get some value out of the scan, it's worth it. Now obviously, if you could get vision of the area where you want to scan for COMPLETELY FREE, you should do it, but sorry, no, there is stuff that it's REALLY valuable to know, even if it's just knowing what ratios of units you should be building. | ||
Jeffbelittle
United States468 Posts
Saying a mule costs 270 minerals is like saying a spawning pool costs an infinite amount of minerals because the drone that was lost could have been mining the rest of the game but wasn't because it died. The fact of the matter is, it costs the energy. That's it. It's not -270 minerals for scanning, it's +0. If you found a rare artificact on the ground that you could sell for $600, but you instead sell it for $400, you did not lose $200, you gained $400. That's that. | ||
ltortoise
633 Posts
On December 02 2010 00:16 Jeffbelittle wrote: Saying a mule costs 270 minerals is like saying a spawning pool costs an infinite amount of minerals No. It's not like saying that, and frankly I can't be the only one whose getting sick of reading this nonsense. Read the thread please, don't just post nonsensical garbage that's been refuted a million times already. | ||
photomuse
United States102 Posts
edit: a good example of this is throwing down a spine as aresponse to pressure. You lose the drone for a much longer period of time because you will be making units to deal with the pressure. | ||
Leviwtf
174 Posts
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Saechiis
Netherlands4989 Posts
If you don't send your workers to your minerals at the start of the game it costs you minerals. You can nitpick that it just "delays" getting those minerals, but that's just that, nitpicking. We all know that you sacrifice 270 minerals over the next 90 seconds by scanning and that you'd rather had gotten those muled minerals. Just like we know that if we don't send our harvesters to the patches it's costing us minerals every second. Don't just argue for the sake of arguing. | ||
Eternalmisfit
United States643 Posts
Let us consider a full 200 energy cycle for a bit. 4 mules average 4-4.5 SCV's throughout the cycle 3 mules + 1 scan ~ 3-3.4 SCV's / cycle 2 mules + 2 scans ~ 2-2.25 SCV's /cycle 1 mules + 3 scans ~ 1-1.1 SCV's /cycle In the meantime, a Zerg/Protoss can make 3 drones/probes which can continuously act as 3 workers throughout. So, if we ignore others mechanics affecting economy, 3 mules + 1 scan /cycle economy will be nearly equivalent to protoss/zerg economy. The benefit on mule will be not being affected by saturation while disadvantage being lesser HP so easier to take off larger equivalent of workers by killing one mule. Also, equivalent regular workers can get gas also which equivalent SCV's from mules cannot. Now, if macro mechanics for all three races were similar, we could possibly say that using a 3 mules + 1 scan per cycle would be break even with other races but unfortunately the zerg macro of making multiple drones simultaneously and losing workers while making buildings, terran workers spending time making buildings and protoss chrono-boosting probes and buildings being constructed not needing worker attention make things complicated. It is hard to put a number of exact worker equivalent on these mechanics as they are affected by the game play parameters. However, I would still argue that it is better equate the opportunity cost of a mule in terms of equivalent workers rather than minerals directly i.e. a scan costs around 4/4.5 SCVs for 90sec or on average ~1 SCV over a 4 min duration. | ||
Offhand
United States1869 Posts
On December 02 2010 00:07 fkt wrote: If a scan costs 270 minerals then a planetary fortress actually doesn't cost 150/150, but instead: 180 x (ingame minutes the fortress is up + 15secs) in minerals ("loss" from not having those additional mules) and 150 gas Yes, but you'd need to assign a number to the gain you get from having an expansion that's near impossible to take down. EDIT: For anyone still wondering if a scan costs 270 minerals, yes it does. Without a mule, you're mining, expanding, and producing that much slower. | ||
QofQfromtehQ
29 Posts
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Phoobie
Canada120 Posts
yes, using a scan means your not using a Mule which mines ~270 minerals so people would say that because Scan = Mule, Mule = 270 minerals then Scan = 270 minerals, however, the amount of minerals you have to mine from a base does not and will not change, if you start a base with 10k minerals you will mine 10k minerals if you add in mules you will still mine 10k minerals, only faster Both scan and mules cost 50 energy and the opportunity cost of the other and nothing more. Mules Chrono boost your mineral income. Scans reveal cloaked/burrowed units and provide vital scouting information. | ||
Phoobie
Canada120 Posts
yes, using a scan means your not using a Mule which mines ~270 minerals so people would say that because Scan = Mule, Mule = 270 minerals then Scan = 270 minerals, however, the amount of minerals you have to mine from a base does not and will not change, if you start a base with 10k minerals you will mine 10k minerals if you add in mules you will still mine 10k minerals, only faster Both scan and mules cost 50 energy and the opportunity cost of the other and nothing more. Mules Chrono boost your mineral income. Scans reveal cloaked/burrowed units and provide vital scouting information. | ||
Demarini
United States151 Posts
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nam nam
Sweden4672 Posts
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indigoawareness
Slovakia273 Posts
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Rob28
Canada705 Posts
Would you say you are "losing minerals" by not chronoing your nexus? That's time a probe could have been gathering resources rather than being built, isn't it? Or zerg. Are you "losing" minerals by creating anything else with your larva instead of drones? | ||
Seraph.yongweihua
Canada224 Posts
In terms of the 270 minerals, if you were in finance, you would apply an appropriate discount rate for your calculation to find out how much that 270 minerals from the mule is worth now. Since sc2 markets are not efficient and there is no way we'd get a discount rate, we can't calculate this. But we can however say that a mule is worth less than 270 minerals. Probably somewhere > 150, but definitely < 270. | ||
ALPINA
3791 Posts
On December 02 2010 04:35 Phoobie wrote: I would actually argue that Scan VS. Mule is more of advantage A VS. B rather then minerals. yes, using a scan means your not using a Mule which mines ~270 minerals so people would say that because Scan = Mule, Mule = 270 minerals then Scan = 270 minerals, however, the amount of minerals you have to mine from a base does not and will not change, if you start a base with 10k minerals you will mine 10k minerals if you add in mules you will still mine 10k minerals, only faster Both scan and mules cost 50 energy and the opportunity cost of the other and nothing more. Mules Chrono boost your mineral income. Scans reveal cloaked/burrowed units and provide vital scouting information. Yes, but it does not matter cause you pretty much never mine out whole map. So as long as there are minerals on the map, scan costs 270 minerals. | ||
AllNight
Netherlands86 Posts
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Roban
Netherlands73 Posts
Liquipedia still showed the common misconception that scans cost 50 energy! Updated it for you all. You're welcome. | ||
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