Is Scan really free or does it cost 270 minerals? - Page 8
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iloahz
United States964 Posts
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ScythedBlade
308 Posts
On November 30 2010 21:56 mlbrandow wrote: Respectfully, maybe you should return to economics class . The scan very clearly costs you 240-270 minerals over 90 seconds until your base is mined out. It's not some horrible logic. This answer is very clear and simple. You don't need utility functions or harmonic mean algorithms or any voodoo shanti shanti. It gets you minerals more quickly from the wealth of minerals at a base location. But the only time you break even is when you mine out the base. At that time, the scan from 5-10 minutes ago would be considered free, because you'd have earned that income with normal worker production. Potentially if you maynard well, you may not "refund" those minerals until the 20-25 minute mark of a game. A scan isn't free, it costs you 240-270 minerals (until you mine out that location). In any situation where a base isn't completely mined out before the end of the game, you never recoup that cost. And it is a COST, because after 90 seconds you would have had that extra 240-270, and because you scanned, you DON'T have that. The potential income after 90 seconds because lost income once that time has passed. =.= You should learn econ first. It's like saying my coupon bond is worth 1000 dollars at the end because it pays 100 dollars each month for 10 months. I'm already saying "Stop saying it costs 240-270", because it actually doesn't. And with the utility function, it's essentially what other people are saying. It's the formal way of saying "Sometimes, you might probably want to scan or even drop a supply addon INSTEAD of a MULE". My post basically fixes everything to be correct =/ | ||
DreamSailor
Canada433 Posts
The scan does not cost you 270 minerals. The scan does not cost you 270 minerals. The scan does not cost you 270 minerals. The scan is "free" via a currency that is generated by time. You have a choice between a Depot Drop, A Scan, or a Mule every X seconds. These are all nice little perks of having an orbital command. Something "free" does not cost you anything. | ||
DuneBug
United States668 Posts
It's pretty clear that if you use a scan, you could've used a mule. And therefore you could've gotten 270 minerals, assuming ideal conditions. It's not a direct cost, and the mule doesn't instantly deliver 270 minerals, and it has some drawbacks - like mining out your mineral patches quicker. Better questions are at what number of scv's does your mineral income balance out so that using a scan won't affect your ability to produce units or scv's. For example if you used your first 50 energy to scan, that'd be a pretty big setback since that might delay a factory building or a supply depot. You cannot put a price on scouting... whether it's successful or a fail. Every scan you use should be targeted such that you learn something, even if it's not gamebreaking. Scanning a guy's ramp might tell you about his army composition, or he might have it moved away... But it'll at least tell you how well his ramp is covered. | ||
silencesc
United States464 Posts
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Erzz
Canada184 Posts
If you use a supply drop, you will have 100 minerals more than your opponent if the map mines out equally. If you scan, your minerals aren't affected, though you don't get the other options. | ||
Niguana
United States36 Posts
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arb
Noobville17917 Posts
On December 01 2010 04:53 hoovehand wrote: lol... are you serious? a supply drop costs ~170 minerals over 90 seconds because you could have built a depot and called a mule instead... Supply drop is the only thing thats actually sorta free, you dont have to spend anything but 50 energy, and you get 8 supply and essentially save 100 minerals. or something | ||
never_Nal
Costa Rica676 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States42259 Posts
On November 30 2010 21:22 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: If a DT kills 300 minerals worth of your units because you didn't save scans then you'd regret it. Sometimes that extra knowledge gained is worth more than 270 minerals. Great point. The hypothetical MULE the OP is *sacrificing* is not an argument, just as the above post completely counters it with the same logic. So because of this, we should stop playing the hypothetical mineral game and just note that a scan costs exactly 50 energy, no minerals, and no gas. Just like how it doesn't make you automatically lose a base *if only you had gotten a Planetary Fortress instead of an Orbital Command to protect against that zergling rush*. (In other words, OCs don't make you forfeit bases. You could play these nonsensical games all day long by simply using hindsight bias to pick strategies that would have worked better than ones you happened to choose.) People need to stop extrapolating and just be happy with having extra options. | ||
SoftSoap
United States170 Posts
On December 01 2010 07:49 iloahz wrote: I think it's safe to say that some scans turn out to be worth more than 270/mule, while some scans are less useful. It all comes down to decision-making I guess. its all based on your hypothesis, your educated guess)). Mules are more valuable in beginning game more than late game | ||
bowsting
United States20 Posts
On December 01 2010 09:28 ScythedBlade wrote: =.= You should learn econ first. It's like saying my coupon bond is worth 1000 dollars at the end because it pays 100 dollars each month for 10 months. I'm already saying "Stop saying it costs 240-270", because it actually doesn't. And with the utility function, it's essentially what other people are saying. It's the formal way of saying "Sometimes, you might probably want to scan or even drop a supply addon INSTEAD of a MULE". My post basically fixes everything to be correct =/ Everyone should listen to this man: Scan DOES NOT and CAN NOT COST anything! It is impossible for a choice between two options to cost something as you are in fact being supplied with a choice between two potentially lucrative options. You are not being charged or penalized for your choice. MULEs do allow for increased gathering over time but saying not using them COSTS is like saying if I gave the option for 50 toe nail clippings (as you produce these naturally and don't pay for them) to receive either a 270 dollar bill or a chance to see the inside workings of a company whose stock might jump, the said "look" is not charging you money and it sure as hell doesn't "cost" anything. Is it a choice you make? Yes but as you are not giving anything of monetary value to the source it doesn't cost you. Once again: Scan DOES NOT and CAN NOT COST anything! | ||
Zarathusta
United States114 Posts
scan: none mule:+270 minerals over the next 30s, -270 minerals when that mineral field is depleted (since the mineral boost comes from the max minerals in the field) supply drop: +8 supply, +100 minerals (instant build free supply depot, only usable with an un-SD'd supply depot available, assumes that this ability replaces a supply depot that would otherwise be built) So really the opportunity cost of the scan is at most 100 minerals, and that is from missing a supply drop not a mule, and only if you could benefit from a supply drop. But why is the most effective economic decision the least used? Starcraft requires us to be shortsighted, and 270 minerals now is very well worth it, even if it technically gives us nothing in the long run. Also, scans are invaluable in battle, so the real benefit of using them can be 1000's of minerals and gas saved on units and in enemy unit kills because of the in combat benefit. | ||
FiWiFaKi
Canada9858 Posts
The only time mules can be considered free is when all bases on the map are taken and you have a fortified position and you simply don't need the money right away. The scan is very useful though, and 270 is a small price to pay if you get to see Void Rays, or some lategame tech switch etc. Not free by any means though. | ||
DarkPlasmaBall
United States42259 Posts
I could have, hypothetically, potentially, possibly bought a lottery ticket with those two dollars and won a million dollars. Instead, I bought an ice cream. Does that mean my decision to buy an ice cream cost me a million dollars? If yes, then scans cost minerals. + Show Spoiler + Obviously, either decision (ice cream or lottery ticket) gives me a potential benefit, based off of the same amount of resources. Choosing one over the other does not mean that you're supposed to deduct the reward of the one not picked. There are an infinite number of things you can do with money. Why don't we average them all? Why don't we average the benefits of a supply drop, a MULE, and the million other alternatives to *not ever getting an Orbital Command in the first place*? BECAUSE THEY'RE ALL IRRELEVANT. | ||
Wireless Mouse
6 Posts
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Shado.
United States187 Posts
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LTRoadrunner
United States4 Posts
This is how economics compares things like apples and oranges. Apples cost $5, oranges cost $3, then apples can also be looked at as costing 5/3 of an orange since that's what you are giving up each time you choose to purchase an apple. Your choice will depend on which one gives you a higher utility (more satisfaction). In SC2, you have to decide, is the income from a MULE, or the knowledge the scan provides, going to prove more useful in winning. Instead of trying to get to the highest utility curve given our limited resources, we are trying to constantly improve our chances of winning the game given our limited resources (food, gas, minerals, information, etc.). Sometimes a scan will increase your chances more than the extra minerals, and vice versa. | ||
PROJECTILE
United States226 Posts
If you're looking at it as 270 minerals, you're doing it wrong. What's generally important in most starcraft games is current resources + rate of resource collection. The amount of resources you gain through a single mule or scv is pretty irrelevant. In this case, the scan has an opportunity cost of the increased rate of mineral gathering you gain from a mule. So yes, there certainly is a downside, financially, for scanning, because presumably you would be muling instead. The idea is whether or not information is more valuble than tangible economy. Early game, muling is generally more important, but later on, the information is probably more important. I try as hard as possible to mule at every opportunity and not start using scans until midgame unless a zerg opponent is one-basing or I need an emergency scan for cloaked units. | ||
greendestiny
Bosnia-Herzegovina114 Posts
Scan 'costs' you 270 minerals. | ||
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