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On November 30 2010 21:17 osten wrote: Yeah, but you are lying. A scan does not cost minerals. OC energy is not limited. I'm just gonna give up now.. I agree with everything you said but please word your stuff so that you are not straight up lying to people's faces, it destroys your credability. I am not lying. If you fly with Phoenixes to a terran base and you excpect that you can lift and shoot one worker unit before the enemy reacts, do you kill an SCV or a Mule ? To replace an SVC costs 50 minerals plus the time to rebuild in which the replacement SCV is not yet mining. A mule could be on its last way or it could just have started it work. We consider its worth 270 / 2 = 135 minerals, and that is why it is best to lift and kill the Mule instead of an SVC. While the SVC costs minerals and the Mule just energy, the worth of the SVC and the Mule can both be converted to minerals.
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A Scan could have been used to get 270 Minerals but it doesn't cost 270 minerals, it just removes the 270 minerals from your possible short-term income.
BUT: Two cloaked Banshees killing 10 of your workers is 500 minerals lost and a very reduced income, which could be prevented by a scan.
It's as simple as that.
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If a Mule is worth 270 Minerals, every Zerg building is worth infinite minerals because instead, the sacrificed drone could have collected minerals all the time. Lot of flaws there, and btw I would LOVE to be able to scan for 270 Minerals anyway.
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Why is your post so long? I didn't read any of it because the answer is obvious.
The scan costs you 240-270 minerals (depending on which patch you put it on) until you mine out the base. Then it is free.
By that same token, every MULE costs you information, and is never refunded.
I ask again though, why is your post so long?
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On November 30 2010 21:21 TrueIsAwesome wrote:Show nested quote +It gets more complicated with Zerg. If you build a hatch, you need 300 minerals plus 50 minerals for the drone replacement plus the travel time in which the drone is not mining plus a larva. But with the drone morphed to a hatch, you get 1 supply back, which is worth an 1/8 overlord, meaning it saves you 12.5 minerals. Using your logic this should say "plus the time in which the drone is not mining", which is the rest of the game duration. That's 40 minerals a minute in a base that isn't fully saturated, which would result in all the zerg buildings "costing" a lot more. Buff zerg? Scan costs 50 energy, nothing more. A drone can (and should) be replaced. Taking drones from a base which is not over-saturated to morph a structure and not replacing them is one of the greatest issue any zerg beginner faces. If you not rebuild that drone for the expo hatch, you indeed forfeit an awful lot of minerals. The 50 energy for the terran scan or mule roughly worth 270 minerals. You would not spend the energy on scan if you don't expect to get an advantage worth at least 270 minerals. You forfeit the Mule to get the scan. Therefore the scan costs a Mule (and vice versa, a Mule costs a scan. This punishes a too greedy terran which is not saving energy to scan a DT.)
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A scan does not cost a mule.
Take this example. I have two cookies. You can have one. By your logic, choosing either cookie will cost you the other cookie. Since you are gaining 1 cookie and losing 1 cookie your net gain is 0 cookies. Does that make sense to you?
A scan merely costs 50 energy. You do not need to have 270 minerals to use a scan.
If you are evaluating the option of going for a scan and going for a MULE, then a MULE will GIVE you 270 minerals more.
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On November 30 2010 21:26 QofQfromtehQ wrote: If a Mule is worth 270 Minerals, every Zerg building is worth infinite minerals because instead, the sacrificed drone could have collected minerals all the time. Lot of flaws there, and btw I would LOVE to be able to scan for 270 Minerals anyway. I will include this in the OP and explain why this analogy is wrong.
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On November 30 2010 20:59 [F_]aths wrote: It only costs 50 energy. You have to decide if you want to transform the 50 energy into some 270 minerals or into information. depending on the situation What is a good way to decide? I think a very reasonable way is that if you expect to get an advantage somehow worth 270+ minerals, you will scan. If you only expect a very small advantage, you would prefer the 270 minerals because you compare the expected scan information / vision with 270 minerals. [/QUOTE]
this is a very hard one, i cant think of any way to transform scouting information into a mineral value. i think we can all agree that scouting is important, but what are the answers to the questions "am i getting 4gated?", "is he droning?", "whats his tech path?", "where is the army and what is it made of?" and "Is there an expansion yet" worth in minerals?
MULEs get you extra income, scans help to decide what that money should be spent on.
whenever i play T (doesnt happen very often to be fair) and i get uncomfortable, i like to scan my opponents to find out what they are up to. even if it just confirms my suspicions, it still buys me peace of mind...
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On November 30 2010 21:23 [F_]aths wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 21:17 osten wrote: Yeah, but you are lying. A scan does not cost minerals. OC energy is not limited. I'm just gonna give up now.. I agree with everything you said but please word your stuff so that you are not straight up lying to people's faces, it destroys your credability. I am not lying. If you fly with Phoenixes to a terran base and you excpect that you can lift and shoot one worker unit before the enemy reacts, do you kill an SCV or a Mule ? To replace an SVC costs 50 minerals plus the time to rebuild in which the replacement SCV is not yet mining. A mule could be on its last way or it could just have started it work. We consider its worth 270 / 2 = 135 minerals, and that is why it is best to lift and kill the Mule instead of an SVC. While the SVC costs minerals and the Mule just energy, the worth of the SVC and the Mule can both be converted to minerals.
Another thing to take in consideration there is the lifespan of the unit, and possible the fact that mules cannot be used to build structures. Possible forcing a svc to be pulled off of the line to build, that would of otherwise been dedicated to mining. Though, I don't feel like going through the math of it all, so its a moot point to even bring up I guess.
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On November 30 2010 21:26 QofQfromtehQ wrote: If a Mule is worth 270 Minerals, every Zerg building is worth infinite minerals because instead, the sacrificed drone could have collected minerals all the time. Lot of flaws there, and btw I would LOVE to be able to scan for 270 Minerals anyway. That only applies if building a building makes you not have full saturation on your mineral fields. Suppose you have 2 bases with just the right amount of drones to have full mineral income from those bases. The "extra cost" of the building is the amount of minerals it costs to replace the drone in the mineral line (50) and the income that drone would have mined in the time it takes to replace that one drone to again achieve full mineral saturation (probably about 20 seconds assuming you had the exact amount of drones the mineral lines can support)
Mules do not obey the rules of worker saturation, as they collect minerals whether or not there are already workers on that mineral patch. Workers of all races are limited by the maximum amount of workers one mineral patch can support and the maximum cap of minerals the field can be mined. Mules are only limited by the amount of minerals the field holds.
To put it shortly: Mules are always extra income as long as there are existing safe mineral fields with enough minerals left. Workers are only extra income if there are unsaturated safe mineral fields to be worked.
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On November 30 2010 21:27 mlbrandow wrote: Why is your post so long? I didn't read any of it because the answer is obvious. Thank you, but some still argue that a Scan cost is best given in energy instead of 270 minerals.
On November 30 2010 21:27 mlbrandow wrote:By that same token, every MULE costs you information, and is never refunded. Yes, a scan costs a Mule and a Mule costs a scan. Using all energy for Mules and getting owned by a DT proves the worth of a scan
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On November 30 2010 21:30 Roban wrote: A scan does not cost a mule.
Take this example. I have two cookies. You can have one. By your logic, choosing either cookie will cost you the other cookie. Since you are gaining 1 cookie and losing 1 cookie your net gain is 0 cookies. Does that make sense to you?
A scan merely costs 50 energy. You do not need to have 270 minerals to use a scan.
If you are evaluating the option of going for a scan and going for a MULE, then a MULE will GIVE you 270 minerals more.
Include this too in you OP please, because it ones again shows that your arguments are full of flaws.
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It doesn't cost 270 minerals. It's not like if you USE the scan, the minerals in your mineral line disappear.
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On November 30 2010 21:27 mlbrandow wrote: Why is your post so long? I didn't read any of it because the answer is obvious.
The scan costs you 240-270 minerals (depending on which patch you put it on) until you mine out the base. Then it is free.
By that same token, every MULE costs you information, and is never refunded.
I ask again though, why is your post so long?
When you guys stop arguing and read this post, you'll stop arguing. (Circular Logic for your circular bickering).
This has a very clear answer.
Also, while that analogy you aforementioned about Zerg buildings costing more than they do, he's right in that respect. They cost extra minerals due to the fact that you lose a drone and it costs you minerals equal to the time to mining time lost to saturation. This cost is essentially subtracted from the cost of the buildings, which are discounted to counter-balance the loss of a worker.
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I'd kind of like to see people scouting with mules. It costs the same thing as a scan but it can move around and cover more area. The only problem is that you need vision of somewhere to mule. But if you can get halfway up a ramp, you could mule inside and scout a whole base.
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if a scan costs 270minerals, any building that a zerg make costs INFINITE minerals.
whats the point of saying a spell costs any amout of minerals at all?
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On November 30 2010 21:33 Nycaloth wrote: this is a very hard one, i cant think of any way to transform scouting information into a mineral value. i think we can all agree that scouting is important, but what are the answers to the questions "am i getting 4gated?", "is he droning?", "whats his tech path?", "where is the army and what is it made of?" and "Is there an expansion yet" worth in minerals? If you know that upon the cliff you would see 1 marine with a scan (since you had vision a short time ago) and the single enemy marine would be owned by your sieged tanks below the cliff, you could spend the scan to take away 50 minerals from the enemy. On the same time, you are getting behind by 270 minerals. I don't think that it would be wise to scan in this situation.
You normally want to know the enemy army composition before he moves out, that is why you scan the base. If you have the correct counter in time, you will lose less units (and thus, less mineral worth) in the upcoming fight.
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So basically, the whole world is wrong when it says the scan costs 270 minerals. You also forget the time interest rate.
IMPORTANT FACT: Essentially, people over-exaggerate to say that a scan costs 270 minerals. Usually when people say a marine cost 50 minerals (in actuality 50 minerals, 1 supply, and time from barrack), the scan notation of saying cost minerals is actually incorrect.
Instead of always trying to concentrate on spamming MULEs, view it as this. If you need some extra minerals for a short period of time, get a MULE. Want a scan? Scan. Want supply? Throw down a supply! So instead of people sounding like they actually know what they're talking about (those who keep pointing out that scans actually *cost* minerals), all of these are equivalent to 50 energy on a orbital command, aka, *cost* 50 energy. No, it is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT to note a scan does not COST 270 minerals.
The better way is, go define your own utility function. The opportunity cost of scanning is the utility gained from getting a MULE (which is 270 minerals, if you want your utility function to be all jsut about minerals =.=, but that's probably not it).
TL;DR: To everyone who tries to abuse economics without actually knowing, please stop saying a scan costs 270 minerals. It's throwing people off from understanding what the mechanic really is.
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On November 30 2010 21:51 ScythedBlade wrote: So basically, the whole world is wrong when it says the scan costs 270 minerals. You also forget the time interest rate.
IMPORTANT FACT: Essentially, people over-exaggerate to say that a scan costs 270 minerals. Usually when people say a marine cost 50 minerals (in actuality 50 minerals, 1 supply, and time from barrack), the scan notation of saying cost minerals is actually incorrect.
Instead of always trying to concentrate on spamming MULEs, view it as this. If you need some extra minerals for a short period of time, get a MULE. Want a scan? Scan. Want supply? Throw down a supply! So instead of people sounding like they actually know what they're talking about (those who keep pointing out that scans actually *cost* minerals), all of these are equivalent to 50 energy on a orbital command, aka, *cost* 50 energy. No, it is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT to note a scan does not COST 270 minerals.
The better way is, go define your own utility function. The opportunity cost of scanning is the utility gained from getting a MULE (which is 270 minerals, if you want your utility function to be all jsut about minerals =.=, but that's probably not it).
TL;DR: To everyone who tries to abuse economics without actually knowing, please stop saying a scan costs 270 minerals. It's throwing people off from understanding what the mechanic really is.
Respectfully, maybe you should return to economics class .
The scan very clearly costs you 240-270 minerals over 90 seconds until your base is mined out. It's not some horrible logic. This answer is very clear and simple. You don't need utility functions or harmonic mean algorithms or any voodoo shanti shanti.
It gets you minerals more quickly from the wealth of minerals at a base location. But the only time you break even is when you mine out the base. At that time, the scan from 5-10 minutes ago would be considered free, because you'd have earned that income with normal worker production.
Potentially if you maynard well, you may not "refund" those minerals until the 20-25 minute mark of a game.
A scan isn't free, it costs you 240-270 minerals (until you mine out that location). In any situation where a base isn't completely mined out before the end of the game, you never recoup that cost. And it is a COST, because after 90 seconds you would have had that extra 240-270, and because you scanned, you DON'T have that. The potential income after 90 seconds because lost income once that time has passed.
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On November 30 2010 21:50 TedJustice wrote: I'd kind of like to see people scouting with mules. It costs the same thing as a scan but it can move around and cover more area. The only problem is that you need vision of somewhere to mule. But if you can get halfway up a ramp, you could mule inside and scout a whole base.
While laddering I've actually had a fair slip of macro and accidently stockpiled 400 plus OC energy, so I scanned there main, and dropped a bunch of mules into there base one after the other, luckily he didn't notice them XD
dropping mules in front of banelings is something i've messed around with as well, in addition to dropping them on tank lines causing friendly fire lol (think i've seen qxc as well as tlo when he mained terran do this as well)
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