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While there has been a couple threads on this exact build, a few were closed and none actually included replays. The rage right now in TvP is one base all-ins from Terran.. I've mastered defending against the marine banshee raven timing attack. The "jinro" build as its recently been coined (3rax marine marauder stim banshee raven) is also incredible difficult to hold if not scouted correctly.. but the one I've had the most trouble with definitely has been this marine tank banshee raven 11 minute timing attack. I dug up one replay (2100 ish terran who executed the build pretty well). Basically I scout the bunker at the front.. send my obs over after 1 gate FE, then have to pull it back for fear of incoming cloak at my base.
I realize this guy played much better than me and was around 10 or so food ahead when he attacked, but I'm just looking for some insight on this because I know most high level toss' have seen and lost to this countless times. I see Minigun lose to builds like this all the time when I'm on his stream. In fact just a few moments ago "deth" or whatever did it to him.
Again, not the greatest game from me... but its a great example from the Terran to give perspective on the build. Let me know your thoughts!
REPLAY:
[url blocked]
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ehh, its not as hard to hold as the Marine/Tank/Banshee/Raven/Viking/Marauder/Ghost/Viking/Medivac/Thor/Hellion/Battlecruiser timing attack.
Especially if they pull SCV's to repair.
User was temp banned for this post. Was also banned from the sc2 strat forum.
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hey sob3k. cool story bro.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On November 30 2010 14:15 sob3k wrote:
ehh, its not as hard to hold as the Marine/Tank/Banshee/Raven/Viking/Marauder/Ghost/Viking/Medivac/Thor/Hellion/Battlecruiser timing attack.
Especially if they pull SCV's to repair.
You wait until Terrans start throwing reapers into that mix!
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On November 30 2010 14:25 Saechiis wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 14:15 sob3k wrote:
ehh, its not as hard to hold as the Marine/Tank/Banshee/Raven/Viking/Marauder/Ghost/Viking/Medivac/Thor/Hellion/Battlecruiser timing attack.
Especially if they pull SCV's to repair. You wait until Terrans start throwing reapers into that mix!
oh god, thats next in the metagame...
+ Show Spoiler +Sorry for derailing your thread  . I'm a 1700 P, and I've never seen this build. Watching rep.
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On November 30 2010 14:10 LynxKerr wrote:
While there has been a couple threads on this exact build, a few were closed and none actually included replays. The rage right now in TvP is one base all-ins from Terran.. I've mastered defending against the marine banshee raven timing attack. The "jinro" build as its recently been coined (3rax marine marauder stim banshee raven) is also incredible difficult to hold if not scouted correctly.. but the one I've had the most trouble with definitely has been this marine tank banshee raven 11 minute timing attack. I dug up one replay (2100 ish terran who executed the build pretty well). Basically I scout the bunker at the front.. send my obs over after 1 gate FE, then have to pull it back for fear of incoming cloak at my base.
I realize this guy played much better than me and was around 10 or so food ahead when he attacked, but I'm just looking for some insight on this because I know most high level toss' have seen and lost to this countless times. I see Minigun lose to builds like this all the time when I'm on his stream. In fact just a few moments ago "deth" or whatever did it to him.
Again, not the greatest game from me... but its a great example from the Terran to give perspective on the build. Let me know your thoughts!
REPLAY:
[url blocked]
This one gives me the most trouble as well although I also have a hard time with the marine banshee raven version. Hopefully some better players will have some advice on this. I'm not sure I've ever seen a replay of a pro game where a toss fends off the tank version.
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Osaka27089 Posts
Despite the fact that the OP was banned, feel free to actually talk about the strat and comment on the rep.
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I'm no toss player so won't I attempt to give you bo or unit comp. It's universal though, that if you know you're opponent is 1 basing, be afraid. throw down some static d to hold a push or buy enough time to build something else up
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I really wish we could have a discussion about these 1 base all-ins from top level players, they are incredibly difficult to stop at all levels. A thread about this pops up on these forums every 2 days, but every time it's just a bunch of random players giving each other bad advice. Unfortunately, it seems like even the best players don't have a definitive answer, since we keep seeing these builds easily roll over tosses at every major tournament.
I've found that the actual composition of the T army doesn't really matter too much - the core units are just marine, scv, and raven. The tech unit, whether it's banshee, tank, marauder, ghost, or any combination of them, is essentially just a gas dump. The key part is just that all these terran units (especially marine) have insane DPS. Then you throw in a PDD and have the SCVs tank for 2 seconds, and that's all it takes for your entire gateway army to go poof while the terran ball is unscathed (except for -10/20 hp from stim).
On a small scale, gateway armies do decently against an equal terran ball. But as both armies grow in size, the terran becomes exponentially stronger. Really the only way to defeat it is to have some sort of tech unit that also has good DPS, like colossus or HT with storm. The problem is, at most you only have time to get out 1 colossus or maybe a templar or 2 with storm (although a lot of times the attack will come right before you have storm), and that's just not going to be enough.
I have tried all sorts of various strats, but none of them have worked consistenly. My 3 best attempts were (and by best, I mean have about 30% win instead of 5%):
(all of these are assuming you 1 gate fe. also pulling probes to defend against the attack is pretty much a given)
1. Rushing to colossus - get robo as soon as I scout that bunker + rines (i.e. only after 1 gate), while chronoing out an obs and 2 immortals as you wait for your robo bay to finish. Immortals are better than stalkers in this situation since they have similar health/damage against marines but aren't affected by PDD. If the terran has tanks or marauders then obviously they're even better. Essentially all of this is on only 2-3 gateway production.
2. Skip robo completely, and get charge and +1 armor while pumping zeals off 4-5 gateways. +1 armor zeals with guardian shield hold up pretty well against marines, which are the main damage dealers in these attacks. Pray that he doesn't have cloaked banshees, but at least you can get pre-emptive cannons since you have a forge to stall until you can get that robo up.
3. DT rush. Yes, it actually can work even against a raven, since you move in with your DTs as soon as he moves out with his raven, and he'll have to come back to defend, buying you more time, and every extra second you get will be towards your advantage since you're on a 2 base eco to his 1. I've even had a game where I was able to buy enough time to get a templar archives (thank god those don't take as long as dark shrines to warp in) and get a templar to feedback the raven when he finally attacked.
BTW if you go with the first route and get that robo asap and scout a lot of banshees with your obs, you should have time to also get a stargate and chrono out a few phoenix. Stopping pure rine/banshee/raven is actually not that bad with a zealot/phoenix/sentry army. Most of the time though, the terran only adds like 2 banshees to his mix and then it's not really worth it to get phoenix.
I'll check to see if I have any replays of these potential counters.
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I think Chargelots and forcing PDD away from your base is key to stopping this attack. A strong composition of mostly Zealots with a few Stalker/Sentry can take down the Marines + Tanks, and if you can kite out the PDD your few Stalkers/Sentry can take out the Banshees.
I can't emphasize enough how important upgrading Charge is.
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On November 30 2010 15:56 yarkO wrote:
I think Chargelots and forcing PDD away from your base is key to stopping this attack. A strong composition of mostly Zealots with a few Stalker/Sentry can take down the Marines + Tanks, and if you can kite out the PDD your few Stalkers/Sentry can take out the Banshees.
I can't emphasize enough how important upgrading Charge is.
The problem with forcing PDD is that the only way you're going to force a PDD is if you have a lot of stalkers (you can't engage and retreat with zealots or you'll end up doing more damage to yourself), and getting a lot of stalkers is pretty much the last thing you want to do against this kind of attack.
Also if he incorporates marauders into his mix (which is quite common now), it's 100% impossible to force PDD
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I personally haven't fought one that brought Marauders w/ Conc shells. It seems like including those would make this push come late enough that you can get a metric shitload of units. Tanks + Raven + Banshee, and still sprinkle Marauds with Conc shell? Not doubting your knowledge since I know you to be a better player, but yeah.
What I bank on is Charge catching up to their units. If they don't PDD, I can pretty safely chase down the Banshees or Raven because my Chargelots don't give the Marine/Tank side of the battle many options.
However your point remains valid, that forcing out a PDD is not as easy as it sounds unless your Terran opponent is very trigger happy.
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On November 30 2010 16:02 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 15:56 yarkO wrote:
I think Chargelots and forcing PDD away from your base is key to stopping this attack. A strong composition of mostly Zealots with a few Stalker/Sentry can take down the Marines + Tanks, and if you can kite out the PDD your few Stalkers/Sentry can take out the Banshees.
I can't emphasize enough how important upgrading Charge is. The problem with forcing PDD is that the only way you're going to force a PDD is if you have a lot of stalkers (you can't engage and retreat with zealots or you'll end up doing more damage to yourself), and getting a lot of stalkers is pretty much the last thing you want to do against this kind of attack. Also if he incorporates marauders into his mix (which is quite common now), it's 100% impossible to force PDD
I always keep my sentries on another keybind and focus fire down the PDD, takes some practice but really isnt all that hard. The PDD dies quite fast from a couple of sentries.
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Your can barely support 1 fax tank, 1 port banshee from 1 base gas wise, I doubt you'd see Marauders as well. Same as for Marine/Raven/Banshee I think Chargelot/Phoenix should hold this.
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this push is very hard to stop , because all teran units has such a high dps , usually they come with 10-14 marines , 4-5 maradeurs , a banshee a raven a mediva and a tank.
The key unit defending this is - zealots , the more u have , the more succes u will have defending.
Sentries with guardian shield can help your zealots survie longer , the problem with sentrie(its attack range) - the banshee autotarget the closest ranged unit , and the sentrie will die very fast.
But if u get charge i think u can hold this even easier. The problem is that u skip robo for that. Which sometimes is risky.
The next key unit is high templar , because all his units cost so much gas , he will not be able to get a lot of ghosts in time. Colosie is not an answer because tank/banshee combo takes them down pretty easy.
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The only pro level game where I've seen a protoss hold this was Genius in his Ro64 game. The terran crushed his first army but overcommited trying to go up the ramp into a collossuss and some stalkers instead of killing the expansion.
I think the best army comp is probably the same as marine/banshee so phoenix/zealot. Since this siege tank version comes later you could probably incorporate 1-2 immortals as well. You always have to get the robo anyway just in case they get cloak (god i hate banshees)
I've gotten to the point against T where I put down a stargate if I see anything that makes me think its a 1-1-1 build. IE: early second gas, a factory, no 2nd rax, whatever. Even if they are just 1 rax FEing I can scout it early enough to expand somewhat on time and can use the stargate to switch into collosus/phoenix later.
It works pretty well until I get Thor all-in'd instead of banshee builds or FE. Then I lose. I have trouble with that push with the other standard openings too though (2 gate robo & 1 gate FE) because I haven't seen it enough
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Tip of the day on how to stop all 1 base *#&$%^&## of terran. Seriously I have a lot of succes with this (2050 (diamond) rating Protoss). Here is the tactic:
Build pylon at 9, send scouting probe and.... *drums* ....
Double gass steal!
And don't cut probes if you don't use chrono boost after 12, you should be able to put down your gateway at 14 (which isn't that late actually).
It forces him to open double rax with marines, and gives him two options:
#1: Go for a marine allin (this is usually the case when he doesn't attack you assimilators.
#2: Kill the assimilators ASAP and do something gassy from then on.
How to react on option #1: If he doesn't attack your assimilators it is safer too get your forge so you cant defend vs mass marines (cannons doe extremely well vs marines without stim (and without marauders).
How to react on option #2: Because he is staying in his base you can gear up normally (my favorite opener is DT's because of the delayed gass of the T you get alot of early map control and alot of harass so you can easily take your expo for relatively cheap costs.
I'm not posting this tactic in a discussion thread because I hope it stays mine  .
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option #3 he can go expo instead , build some bunkers , a turret , and u stay with your canons at home, waiting for a marine attack that will never come.
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On November 30 2010 18:10 turbopasca1 wrote:
The problem is that u skip robo for that. Which sometimes is risky.
this is ALWAYS risky. you never know if he gets cloak or not.
Colossus + phoenix is the answer to marine/raven/banshee. But you're right, that it doesnt work so good vs marine/raven/banshee/tank.
Usually when there are tanks, there are not that many banshees, so you could spare the phoenixes and just get colossi and a lot of zealots and stalkers (yes). just simply clean his ground force quick enough and focus fire the pdd with your stalkers.
but I don't have experience with this after a 1 Gate FE. I tend not to fast expand vs T at the moment, because of these builds and Thor repair rush. :/
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On November 30 2010 18:28 turbopasca1 wrote:
option #3 he can go expo instead , build some bunkers , a turret , and u stay with your canons at home, waiting for a marine attack that will never come.
This is why you scout for this things, if he expands I think you should be happy because you can also expand and have fast 4 gass, with this you can do alot of builds. HT's Collosi w/e.
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EPT
