EPTDon't lose yo village! - Page 14
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Coagulation
United States9633 Posts
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Glasse
Canada1237 Posts
On November 15 2010 12:18 DoctorHelvetica wrote: well you look like scum to me coagulation is our worst player i don't trust glasse's inactivity and iirc he made a kinda bad scummy post on me but that could have been in kingmaker, i don't exactly remember On November 15 2010 12:19 DoctorHelvetica wrote: glasse wasn't even in kingmaker so it was in this game what? where? Also coag, you're asking for it.. i was planning on being quiet but helpful, now i must unleash the derp. Also, going to vote for a lurker ##Vote: Kenpachi Can we get an official vote count? | ||
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deconduo
Ireland4122 Posts
No Lynch (3) KtheZ LSB kenpachi Dr. H (2) youngminii Coagulation Pandain (1) Dr. H Kenpachi (1) Glasse Coagulation (1) Artanis Yet to vote: Pandain Voting ends in just under 8 hours. To clarify some more voting rules: -The person with the most votes will get lynched (not the majority, sorry). This includes 'No One' -If there is a tie, then no one will be lynched. | ||
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Coagulation
United States9633 Posts
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youngminii
Australia7514 Posts
In any case, I suppose I'll try do an analysis on DrH. | ||
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deconduo
Ireland4122 Posts
On November 15 2010 23:23 youngminii wrote: I really, really don't like the tie rule. If there's 2scum vs 4town at the end, then scum only needs to gain the support of one player to secure a victory. In any case, I suppose I'll try do an analysis on DrH. This way actually favours town slightly in the long run. | ||
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youngminii
Australia7514 Posts
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youngminii
Australia7514 Posts
On November 14 2010 08:26 DoctorHelvetica wrote: I really don't like the idea of everyone knowing what the shrink/doctors are gonna do. If we direct the blues that easily then the mafia simply only have to do exactly the opposite of what they shrink has claimed to do in the thread. If the mafia know the shrink is protecting player x, they will just never convert player x, meaning they will never fail in their conversion. The doctor and the shrink should feel comfortable acting on their own discretion. You need to understand what the best targets for mafia are. For death, strong blues (like LSB) will be the main target. For conversion, veterans/good players (myself, LSB) will be the strongest targets. Try to predict what the mafia are going to do, don't give them information. If we're going to do some sort of mass roleclaim thing, it needs to be set-up so that the mafia are forced to give the town bogus information. Mafia want to play the game giving as little information as possible in regards to everything, forcing them to come out of the woodwork is what will make them slip-up. Don't be scared to pressure. This is a wishy washy post. Instead of saying "Shrink/Doctor should not do this" he says "I really don't like the idea of..." He comes off as passive, doesn't push his opinion aggressively so that he doesn't put too much spotlight on himself. He gives 'advice' - "Don't be scared to pressure" which is obvious and makes him look pro-town. It also sets himself up to start pressuring people, which will ultimately lead to people getting lynched and allowing him to paint other people in a bad light. As scum, of course he doesn't mind a mass roleclaim. Mass roleclaiming this early will only help scum, and instead of saying "Don't roleclaim" like a townie would, he says IF you roleclaim blah blah blah. Hell, even the core of his post is scummy, of course he doesn't want Shrinks and Doctors to have their actions coordinated by town, it'll only help scum so he tries to put down the idea as under the radar as possible. On November 14 2010 08:28 DoctorHelvetica wrote: Also town, if you feel someone is pretty strongly pro-town I'd advise you not to tell the town (hey I think player X is definitely a townie) wait and watch, mafia might try to make a bad case on that person and fall into the trap. it's ok to keep your thoughts to yourself. we don't need to know everything you're thinking and the mafia CERTAINLY don't. Trying to prevent town from coordination and planning. The less information the town has, the better for scum. On November 14 2010 14:56 DoctorHelvetica wrote: That is true. You're also the best target in the case of there being no mafia suspects. We need to scumhunt instead of putting pressure on you. You never respond well to it anyway, it's pointless. Possible link here between DrH and Coag. If DrH flips red, I'd keep an eye on Coag. Maybe DrH is defending Coag because he thinks Coag will probably end up hurting town by his play (no offence Coag!) On November 15 2010 03:21 DoctorHelvetica wrote: he didn't say he was neither calm nor clam he said he was either calm or clam, he just doesn't know which one big difference. we can't just accept artanis as 100% town. vet is one of the best fakeclaims for a mafia, but something about his play doesn't really make a whole lot of sense to me as mafia. he's at the bottom of my suspects list really wish he refused to answer that question about his role pm. would have been such a good trap if he said he was calm and then some mafia said "well im clam" Still trying to hush down the information town has. I think we can accept artanis as town for now, it won't hurt anyone to do so. We can determine his alignment later on if things don't add up. DrH on the other hand, blankets this information with a veil of insecurity, a very scum-like play. On November 15 2010 03:23 DoctorHelvetica wrote: i would think i'd be the day 1 target maybe mafia predicted i would be protected by a doctor or they're doing the same strategy I did in Micro Mafia Redemption where we intentionally avoided hitting vets so I wouldn't fall under suspicion for being the "last vet alive" The old "I'm probably the target" cover. Makes him look as secure as possible if he brings up the idea of mafia trying to target him. On November 15 2010 04:32 DoctorHelvetica wrote: i said I'm changing my game strategy I posted too much in insane mafia and I let the town know too much of what I was thinking. my plan is to be more withdrawn, keep more to myself, and only post when I have something to say. not feeling great about glasse, youngminii, or kenpachi. kenpachi never really contributes anything, just parrots what others say and is generally inactive i don't have good meta read on glasse yet or youngminii though. out of the active posters you're the scummiest imo is that what you wanted to hear? i'm going to go away now until something happens thats worth posting about "i said I'm changing my game strategy" - simplest cover Instead of playing as he normally does (logical, defensive, assertive, mannered and well presented), he kind of just dismisses the accusations against him, tries to put the limelight on other people and then posts in a very aggressive manner. On November 15 2010 04:38 DoctorHelvetica wrote: you guys can lynch me if you're really stupid but please lynch pandain when i flip blue THIS IS NOT DRH TOWN STYLE PLAY. DrH would never be a jackass like this as town, he's pulling a Coag here. On November 15 2010 09:48 DoctorHelvetica wrote: if in doubt, lynch coagulation. ..No. On November 15 2010 12:01 DoctorHelvetica wrote: rofl lynching people for "information" is such a bullshit scumplay lynch your best and most experienced player cause it might give you "information", good call. Pandain I never contradicted myself, stop beating a dead horse trying to get me lynched on bullshit. You don't get any information on anybody from me. What information on coagulation? That I think he's terrible at this game as either town OR mafia? Wow. What information on Artanis? Everyone seems to agree that his claim seems legit and makes no sense as a mafia play. What information do you get? You can get the same bullshit "information" lynching anybody, that's why this play is so weak and terrible. Hey town, why don't you think for a second before you go and off get rid of your most experienced player. Why does Pandain want to get rid of me? Think about if Pandain is mafia here: - Mafia doesn't hit me - Push suspicion on me for because I wasn't targeted night 1 - Make up shit about how I contradicted myself about pressuring or whatever Pandain is talking about, it doesn't even really make sense to me because his arguments never make sense - Left out the fact that me flipping blue might incriminate him (obviously purposely) - Same bad argumentation style in Insane Mafia (twist my words to make it seem like I'm being inconsistent, saying things that don't really make sense with the intent NOT of understanding what I'm saying but just of making me look bad) - This terrible bullshit "lynch for information!" argument Here's the thing. I always do the "lynch for information" bit when I'm mafia, or at least I had until BloodC0bbler told me in BrownBear's game that it was super obvious and that he was shocked no one knew I was mafia from DAY ONE starting that. I've been mafia probably more times than anyone here and I know bullshit when I see it. Guess what, that's all Pandain has to bring to the table. ##Vote Pandain Pandain if you are town then you seriously need to go through Mafia boot camp and read Ver's guide. Seeing as how you always seek advice after games (and you usually PM me about it) I seriously doubt you still lack the skill and logical insight necessary to stop these awful tirades. The gem of DrH's posts. He uses his jackass attitude that he's created in this game to try and push a vote against Pandain. First, DrH is not a jackass. It is beneficial if he acts like one though, if he can attack someone aggressively for a reason as simple as OMGUS. Second, lynching for information is not a bad thing. It is a good thing. Especially when there's someone scummy around. Thrid, who was the one that originally said "don't be afraid to pressure"? Lynching is a form of pressure, you pressure someone then lynch them if they don't act accordingly. You are saying don't lynch for information, that is essentially saying don't pressure for information. This is contradictory and scummy. For more information go read Pandain's analysis, it covers most of DrH's earlier posts where it's just mindless, under-the-radar type of posting. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
On November 15 2010 18:44 youngminii wrote: Okay right now I think Pandain is not scum. Basically it all boils down to the fact that he went against no lynch. Now, the lynch is the town's most important weapon for two reasons. One is it allows you to kill someone. Two is because of the activity and discussion it generates. These two reasons mean a lynch should never be passed up UNLESS there's a specific scenario that benefits the town by not lynching (ie. 2 scum and 4 town, if there's a mislynch then town loses but if you abstain then you get to live another day with 2 scum and 3 town). In that light: Vote DoctorHelvetica My vote is based on the fact that in Insane Mafia he was so adamant about defending himself against all of Pandain's silly accusations yet in this game he just fires right back at Pandain. metagame ftw How many times do I have to say I'm not playing exactly the same way in Insane Mafia because I learned from my mistakes? "You're scum because you're not playing EXACTLY THE SAME" You're smarter than that youngminii. Even you told me to stop nitpicking at all his shitty arguments and thats what I'm doing. Would you rather I flood the town with useless arguments? No. Of course you wouldn't because you yelled at me for doing so in Insane Mafia and I realized how bad it was. On top of that uber-defensiveness is MAFIA TELLING. The fact that I don't feel the need to defend myself on every little thing is more town than anything. Jesus christ YM. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
On November 15 2010 23:48 youngminii wrote: This is a wishy washy post. Instead of saying "Shrink/Doctor should not do this" he says "I really don't like the idea of..." He comes off as passive, doesn't push his opinion aggressively so that he doesn't put too much spotlight on himself. He gives 'advice' - "Don't be scared to pressure" which is obvious and makes him look pro-town. It also sets himself up to start pressuring people, which will ultimately lead to people getting lynched and allowing him to paint other people in a bad light. As scum, of course he doesn't mind a mass roleclaim. Mass roleclaiming this early will only help scum, and instead of saying "Don't roleclaim" like a townie would, he says IF you roleclaim blah blah blah. Hell, even the core of his post is scummy, of course he doesn't want Shrinks and Doctors to have their actions coordinated by town, it'll only help scum so he tries to put down the idea as under the radar as possible. Trying to prevent town from coordination and planning. The less information the town has, the better for scum. Possible link here between DrH and Coag. If DrH flips red, I'd keep an eye on Coag. Maybe DrH is defending Coag because he thinks Coag will probably end up hurting town by his play (no offence Coag!) Still trying to hush down the information town has. I think we can accept artanis as town for now, it won't hurt anyone to do so. We can determine his alignment later on if things don't add up. DrH on the other hand, blankets this information with a veil of insecurity, a very scum-like play. The old "I'm probably the target" cover. Makes him look as secure as possible if he brings up the idea of mafia trying to target him. "i said I'm changing my game strategy" - simplest cover Instead of playing as he normally does (logical, defensive, assertive, mannered and well presented), he kind of just dismisses the accusations against him, tries to put the limelight on other people and then posts in a very aggressive manner. THIS IS NOT DRH TOWN STYLE PLAY. DrH would never be a jackass like this as town, he's pulling a Coag here. ..No. The gem of DrH's posts. He uses his jackass attitude that he's created in this game to try and push a vote against Pandain. First, DrH is not a jackass. It is beneficial if he acts like one though, if he can attack someone aggressively for a reason as simple as OMGUS. Second, lynching for information is not a bad thing. It is a good thing. Especially when there's someone scummy around. Thrid, who was the one that originally said "don't be afraid to pressure"? Lynching is a form of pressure, you pressure someone then lynch them if they don't act accordingly. You are saying don't lynch for information, that is essentially saying don't pressure for information. This is contradictory and scummy. For more information go read Pandain's analysis, it covers most of DrH's earlier posts where it's just mindless, under-the-radar type of posting. Wow this is bad. You guys are going to kick yourself in the teeth and town better lynch you if I flip blue. Unlike Pandain, you're pretty smart with mafia and I would never expect you to make a bad analysis like this. First let me address the OMGUS thing because coagulation made the same mistake (and I believe he is your scumbuddy). OMGUS is voting for someone ONLY because they voted for you. It is not necessarily a scumtell. Voting for someone who voted for you does not necessitate an OMGUS. If I felt Pandains arguments were scummy (such as they were in Insane Mafia) then that's a reasonable time to start a counter bandwagon. OMGUS is if you vote for me without saying anything and I just suddenly vote for you back. There's no argument, no scum analysis, no nothing. Relying on mafiascum scumtells to "scumhunt" is the worst thing you could ever do. About half the time they are just bad play. You should be aware of them but the most important thing to note is how the mafia subtly defend themselves and one another, how they argue, etc. Do you really think a player such as myself is going to go around doing all the obvious scumtells (OMGUS, Chainsaw, etc.) Secondly lets talk about meta because I'm sick of this thing. "He didn't play the same way as Insane Mafia!" Well guess what? I'm not playing the same way as I have in ANY game where I've been mafia either? What does that mean? That means the meta speculation is completely 100% inconclusive. Let me say this AGAIN because it seems neither you or Pandain understood or read it or something. In Insane Mafia, as town, I did TOO MUCH POSTING. NOT ENOUGH THINKING. Because i posted everything that came to mind, the mafia knew what I was thinking and could manipulate my thought process more. Read Ver's (best town player here) guide on how to play town. He advises town players not to POST CONSTANTLY. To keep some of their thoughts to themselves. Read it read it read it. This is not the play of a mafia. No jackass attitude? What are you talking about? I've posted like a "jackass" twice in my mafia career: Insane Mafia (town), Micro Mafia (mafia). As town I have no issues calling a player terrible. Read my arguments with Pandain in insane mafia. I constantly say "your arguments are retarded, you are bad, you suck stop trying" I laughed at him and belittled his terrible arguments just like I did here. Because they were just that: retarded arguments. And I laughed at them. I didn't just coolly and logically deconstruct them, I openly mocked them. This is not inconsistent posting behavior for me dude, you're grasping at straws. And guess what happens when you prod at a mafia a little bit, make them mad? They want to attack you even more. They fuck up even more and make themselves look even worse. Don't be an idiot, I posted many times with this tone in the Insane Mafia game. "Lynching for information is a good thing" Not when you're lynching your most experienced player to get information on who? Artanis? Coagulation? Are you fucking kidding me lol. Lynching for information is pretty good super late game when you know you can catch a bunch of mafia that way. So let me ask you YM. What great information will you get when I die? Is that the scumplan to bandwagon Pandain right after? Maybe town should think before they lynch the best player on such terrible arguments. -The lynch coagulation thing was a joke. I was at work on my phone. -"This is not DrH style play" Well I already told you why thats wrong. The point of that post was so that town would lynch Pandain when I flip blue, a reasonable request. Now I'd like to request they lynch you instead. -It's not a defense, it's a fact. Sorry I'm not posting 100% of my thoughts like a retard in this thread. I've never been very well mannered, don't know where you got that. "Kinda dismisses" maybe you missed the posts where I actually did pick Pandain's bad arguments apart? -"I'm probably the target" is not a COVER. It makes me look scummy that I survived, not the opposite. Jesus. -Hush down what information? LOL do you really think that we as town should say everything on our minds and give eachother all information in the open where mafia can see it? Of course you want complete open trade if information, it helps you doesn't it? But where in that post am I "blanketing" anything? -I'd say the connection is between coag and you. I've hosted 2 games with coagulation and played in him with 3. He is not good at responding to pressure, he just simply doesn't and it wastes time. I'd rather pressure a different inactive. I'm not defending him. I think he might just maybe be your scumbuddy. -"Trying to prevent town from coordination and planning. The less information the town has, the better for scum." You're a clown. I've explained many times while this is not beneficial for the town to share and why it helps the mafia to share it. Let me elaborate. 1. As bandwagons form, peoples natural opinions of who is or isn't town will naturally affect that. 2. As the town reveals who they feel is definitely town, the mafia can avoid bandwagoning hard targets, can also reinforce the idea that one of their own is town and manipulate the shit out of town. 3. We need to be discussing who is or isn't mafia, not who is town. Sorry our goal in this game is to lynch mafia players. You're reading too much into the phrase "I really don't like the idea of." I NEVER SAID I DON'T WANT SHRINKS AND DOCTORS TO BE COORDINATED. Listen. You should not BROADCAST exactly what the fucking blues are going to do. If the Mafia knows Doctors are proting player X then they just have to hit player Y. The whole point of the Doctor is to predict the mafia and block a shot. "It will also set him up to start pressuring people. GASP OH NO HE'S GONNA PRESSURE PEOPLE Also I'm still thinking about the idea of a mass roleclaim. There is only 1 of every role besides the mafia and the bulletproof. The mafia suspects would be narrowed down to four and 1/2 of those suspects in the roleclaim would be mafia. Narrowing it down to 50/50 would allow us to go back at the posts and see among which the scummiest are. It would probably be more of a nuisance to the mafia than anything. More so than TELLING THEM WHAT THE DOCTOR OR SHRINK IS GOING TO DO. | ||
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youngminii
Australia7514 Posts
But uhh, just so you know, I never said anything about lynching Coag. And hey, if we're telling the doctor to protect the tracker, then nobody will care if scum knows about it. Because it's a coordinated plan to protect the tracker. Yes, scum will never target tracker and hence never waste the hit but the original idea was to protect the tracker. | ||
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youngminii
Australia7514 Posts
Wow this is bad. Wow. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
If you're going to accuse me of changing my argumentation style you should make sure I actually did change it first. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
i imagine it'll be just as bad/even worse than his attacks on me earlier the more he can do to discredit himself as a valuable player the more everyone will see that nothing he says makes any sense and we can move on to more pressing issues YOU ARE SO BAD AT LYING Why don't you go ahead and say I made the role of sticky up so I can make you look even more desperate and ridiculous. This is baseless bullshit designed to make me look bad. That's all that is. This is garbage. Good, maybe Pandain will stop his dumb campaign of bullshit against me now. Yeah I've always been very nice right? | ||
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youngminii
Australia7514 Posts
I'm not going to let you dodge this lynch. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
Your whole argument seems to be based on this flimsy metagame shit that "He's acting like a jerk in this game but he was ALWAYS polite and never a jerk in insane mafia therefore he is mafia" That's weak on any player, much less using that to try to get the most experienced player lynched. Metagame arguments aren't very good, they supplement real arguments. Insane Mafia was my first town game (I died too quick in Kingmaker) and I learned a lot from it. Not only did you not respond to any of the specific points of my defense, but you're just pushing this idea that I've taken a 180 degree turn from my previous town play. Not really. I'm not posting as much and that's an intentional decision. Read my after-post in Insane Mafia, I said over and over I made the mistake of posting too much as town. This isn't an excuse I'm making up now. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
On November 16 2010 02:45 youngminii wrote: I especially love how you start off your defense by saying "wow this is bad". Your aggressiveness is so different to how you played in the early game, it's almost as if you've completely changed your style to suit your needs. Oh wait what that sounds scummy. Wow this is bad. Wow. From my only game as town where I performed abysmally because I posted too much and didn't put the right kind of pressure on mafia and got ignored? Yeah how dare I change my style I must be scum! Town players never change their minds and always play exactly the same in every game no matter what the scenario! | ||
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youngminii
Australia7514 Posts
You say you posted too much as town. What have you posted in this game? Meaningless posts, until Pandain accused you. Then you got all aggressive and mad and tried to turn the tide back on him. Bad scum, bad. | ||
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youngminii
Australia7514 Posts
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
On November 16 2010 03:20 youngminii wrote: Please don't try to pick one part of my argument and act like it represents my entire argument so you can attack that specific point and make it look like you're logically attacking my entire argument. I hope no one falls for it, I really do. You say you posted too much as town. What have you posted in this game? Meaningless posts, until Pandain accused you. Then you got all aggressive and mad and tried to turn the tide back on him. Bad scum, bad. Please don't try to pick one part of my argument Well I picked your entire argument. You ignored that completely and decided to keep talking about how much my style has changed. So it's pretty clear that seems to be your focus. Again, ignore the post where I actually deconstructed your whole case, keep talking about the style change that doesn't really exist. Meaningless posts? Yeah, focus on the 3-4 posts that didn't contribute much and ignore everything else. I wanted to lay a bit low at the beginning, consider everything before I come in. Not to mention I was very busy at the very start of this game (starting a new job, helping grandma unpack/move stuff all weekend/etc.) On November 14 2010 08:26 DoctorHelvetica wrote: I really don't like the idea of everyone knowing what the shrink/doctors are gonna do. If we direct the blues that easily then the mafia simply only have to do exactly the opposite of what they shrink has claimed to do in the thread. If the mafia know the shrink is protecting player x, they will just never convert player x, meaning they will never fail in their conversion. The doctor and the shrink should feel comfortable acting on their own discretion. You need to understand what the best targets for mafia are. For death, strong blues (like LSB) will be the main target. For conversion, veterans/good players (myself, LSB) will be the strongest targets. Try to predict what the mafia are going to do, don't give them information. If we're going to do some sort of mass roleclaim thing, it needs to be set-up so that the mafia are forced to give the town bogus information. Mafia want to play the game giving as little information as possible in regards to everything, forcing them to come out of the woodwork is what will make them slip-up. Don't be scared to pressure. Around here I've considered what's going on and start contributing my thoughts. That continues as I try to set-up a possible trap for KtheZ and up till now. No I didn't just start posting when I was accused. Even if I did what should I do? Just keep spewing one-liners? Not defend myself when someone makes a bad accusation? That's basically saying "you're scum because you defended yourself when someone called you scum" Being aggressive is NOT mafia behavior. Besides Micro Mafia (when I was arguing against champs like coagulation and NB) I'm a pretty meek mafia player. Telling the town what they want to hear, taking the easy argument, passive and meek defenses. There is nothing wrong with being aggressive YM. Look at Ace's town play, he's the biggest dick there is, and it WORKS. Saying I'm attacking the one part of your argument to make it look like I'm attacking your whole argument. LOL. Looks like you didn't read my posts buddy. | ||
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