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Orb vs Isai Cyberground Tournament ruling/issue - Page 3

Blogs > LuckyFool
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PokePill
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States1048 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-26 19:29:13
September 26 2010 19:21 GMT
#41
Fairly certain, Orb would lose 75% of the time in that engagement. Marauder Marine Medivac wrecks that zealot stalker army with any unit control at all...

Looking at the VoD I would guess Isai is a platinum or low diamond player (loading scvs at start, blind pulling scvs to push, very poor control during push).

So the 25% being him not stimming or misclicking and running his army into Orbs without attacking or chasing the probe across the map and letting orb get in 2 gateway cycles of 8 more units.

30 worker advantage doesn't really mean anything.
jenzebubble
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States183 Posts
September 26 2010 19:22 GMT
#42
Had they had clearly defined rules in regard to disconnects and orb rages it is a completely different situation. Did orb act unprofessionally? I don't know as I wasn't there. For the sake of this discussion let's assume that he did. The tournament organizers also acted unprofessionally. They were not prepared for a situation where one or both players disconnected. That is a fairly premise that they muffed up.
"It's like waxing your balls, it hurts like a biiiitch but after they are silky smooth...." -Kennigit
-orb-
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
United States5770 Posts
September 26 2010 19:25 GMT
#43
On September 27 2010 03:52 Nokarot wrote:
Everybody huddling around your computer agreed with you winning because they heard your emotionally-driven assumptions of what would have happened throughout the rest of the game.

Everyone huddling around Isai and Luckyfools' computer watching the replay decided that it wasn't over. Maybe the admins didn't come over and talk to you, but you also didn't come over and talk to them, so you have very little idea of what was considered on the other side of the room.

You cant base games on what you think would have happened. For example, you suggest that because he's chasing a probe for half a second, that 40 seconds of zealot charge (minus some if you chrono'd) would finish before he got there. As little respect as you obviously have for Isai, there's no evidence to suggest that he might not re-think chasing that probe and just attack. Concurrently, there is no evidence to suggest that he'd just attack and wouldn't just chase the probe for 3 years, but the fact of the matter is, we don't know. You also claim that you would have floated your observer over the factory and nullified it, but it's easier to say that when you're watching a replay without fog of war than it is to magically do it with no information of a factory at all (granted, i don't think the factory really mattered in that game by any means.)

In the end, your entire argument for that game is based off assumptions of how the entire game would play out. You had "an" advantage (economy, not army) and thus you feel entitled to the win. "Advantage" is far from "having won the game already and just needing to go through the motions"- the word advantage suggests that someone is ahead, not that someone is going to win. At that stage in the game, if he'd attacked, you'd lost ever probe in your expo, he'd have closed the gap by a decent amount. Even if you had 37-38 workers (after theoretically losing your natural), only 30 of them are giving you max 1base income. Yes, he had shit on workers, but mules would cover that gap even more, and he may eventually build some more.

That being said, everything I just said is as much theorycrafting as what you've given. As I said in an earlier post, the simple fact that its up for debate means that it absolutely has to be a re-game. "Advantage" or no, if the game wasn't essentially already over, its unfair to give a loss to someone without even giving them the chance.

I don't think you can really justify feeling entitled to an advantage in the regame, either. It's bad luck that you had to regame on Lost Temple vs Terran, but no self respecting league or tournament has every changed maps for a disconnect/power outage/whatever regame.

Show nested quote +
I'm honestly disgusted with your actions.


It's also hard to hear something like that when you start game 3 (not the re-game even) by bitching out your opponent for picking "the most fucking imba race on the most imba map" yada yada yada "heres a medal", followed by how you single handedly managed to tarnish an otherwise perfect LAN with all of your poor manners and disrespect.

It's fine to be upset, but you're upset at the wrong people. Blame Battle.net.


First off, I think I am justified to hypothesize what would have happened in this game both because having played this game myself and the series itself and seeing all my opponents decisions I understand what was going on better than the admins do, and also because my opponent literally played the same way from game 1 through game 3 and thus you can look at his actions and compare them.

Secondly, just because no other tournament has changed maps for a disconnect doesn't mean that in this isolated and unique situation we have to follow exactly what happened in some other tournament in a completely different situation.

The basic facts are that
1: I was in a huge advantage
2: The admin decision turned my huge advantage (which didn't need necessarily to become a win but at least stay an advantage) into an advantage for my opponent. This isn't remotely fair.

Thirdly, I don't think you're thinking as clearly as you are pretending to:
bitching out your opponent for picking "the most fucking imba race on the most imba map"

Good job rephrasing what I said and adding curse words in there to make me seem like more of an asshole.

Oh, let's not forget that my opponent trash talked me before and after that. No one wants to talk about that! Let's just keep bashing orb and pretending like he was unreasonably BM in an otherwise perfectly GM tournament where everyone was prancing around like unicorns in their perfectly happy world.

Are you serious?

Blame Battle.net


While battle.net is obviously also to blame, IsAi and the tournament admins personally decided to play out the tournament in this fashion, and therefore their actions are as much to blame as battle.net is.
'life of lively to live to life of full life thx to shield battery'
how sad that sc2 has no shield battery :(
EleanorRIgby
Profile Joined March 2008
Canada3923 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-26 19:30:11
September 26 2010 19:28 GMT
#44
lol if the admins didn't even talk to orb then thats just fucking low, saying both players opinions were taken in to consideration when you really didn't even speak to him. Pathetic

giving orb the map choice would have been a good descision

Its so hard to regame like that, its gives the opponent a clear advantage and his opponent knew that and abused it. Jesus thats suck
savior did nothing wrong
-orb-
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
United States5770 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-26 19:32:31
September 26 2010 19:29 GMT
#45
On September 27 2010 04:21 PokePill wrote:
Fairly certain, Orb would lose 75% of the time in that engagement. Marauder Marine Medivac wrecks that zealot stalker army with any unit control at all...

Looking at the VoD I would guess Isai is a platinum or low diamond player (loading scvs at start, blind pulling scvs to push, very poor control during push).

So the 25% being him not stimming or misclicking and running his army into Orbs without attacking or chasing the probe across the map and letting orb get in 2 gateway cycles of 8 more units.


Fairly certain you don't fully understand what's going on in this game. Not only was my opponent not about to attack, but charge was going to be finished soon, my opponent's control was awful, I had a large enough economy to rebuild my army instantly as I lost units.

Even if by some miracle he killed my army in that situation my superior economy would allow me to rebuild my army extremely quickly while his awful economy would not allow him to rebuild quickly at all.

Thus even if by some ridiculous miracle he won that engagement I'd still win the game with extreme ease
'life of lively to live to life of full life thx to shield battery'
how sad that sc2 has no shield battery :(
Zlasher
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States9129 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-26 19:43:48
September 26 2010 19:41 GMT
#46
On September 27 2010 03:19 -orb- wrote:
I'd like to point out a number of things:

1: The admins didn't talk to me at all regarding the decision. They didn't come over to where I was showing the replay and ask for my opinion on the game. Instead, they spent 10+ minutes standing with IsAi while he showed through the replay

This is terrible professionalism and isn't fair in the slightest. Obviously IsAi was telling them all about how he was about to push and how I wouldn't be able to defend and shit.


Me and toren and Geno were all behind your shoulder, Luckyfool didn't even talk to Isai, he was sitting at his computer until Toren, Geno, and me went to him. Nobody talked to isai.



I was told by Zlasher that the decision was a regame. You knew what you were doing was unfair and not right so you didn't even have the guts to come tell me your decision? This is let alone actually coming and "considering my opinion" on the game.


I don't remember the exact situation now, but me, geno, and toren walked over to discuss the decision, and toren was the one who told you that the admins decided that we can't auto give you a win in that situation. Luckyfool was doing his match and was at his computer, it wasn't only his decision it was also toren and geno's and my own. Don't just blame luckyfool for not saying it to your face because 3 of us were there. We were all around your computer until rob's game was over then we watched the replay you uploaded on luckyfools computer, isai was nowhere to be seen or heard.



Show nested quote +
although orb had a very large economic advantage, at the point of disconnect the game was not decided. Army composition/cost were fairly even


Right, so what you're saying is that:
1: Our armies were even
2: My economy was at a "very large ... advantage"

So overall I was at a "very large advantage." So with a very large advantage I couldn't be awarded the game? Instead, you have to neutralize that advantage and even the playing field?

With that logic, any time anyone is starting to get a disadvantage in a tournament (or has a very large disadvantage), they should apparently pull the plug and get a regame called since apparently advantages don't mean anything in this game.

In this situation a 15 probe advantage would have been enough to call it, let alone a 33 probe advantage.

I also found it amusing how literally every single player that watched the game at the tournament said I had it won guaranteed, yet the tournament admins decided to disagree with everyone else there, most likely since they were over hanging out with IsAi instead of getting the full picture.


Your armies weren't even, I can amove 10 maruaders and 14 marines and 3 medivacs with stim against 9 stalkers 10 zealots and bisu could try to micro and he would never beat that. If you pull probes, you will lose a ton of probes because, as you know, marines and marauders destroy probes especially when therse 3 medivacs, the probes would kill 0 units and just soak a few shots. This is assuming the terran doesn't micro, and Isai isn't a silver level player.

Follow me: www.twitter.com/zlasher
Trap
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States395 Posts
September 26 2010 19:44 GMT
#47
The admins chose the right decision to regame, which is after all the community standard. Having experienced that awful moment when T attacks right before your charge is done, if T attacked immediately, P's army would likely lose, and I doubt he could get a decent probe surround since T had stim. If you have roughly equivalent army cost of zeal/stalker vs stimmed MMM and P doesn't have charge or forcefields, T almost always wins. And after that it's all hypothetical since P would be able to hang on to his main with probes at the ramp / 4gate+robo reinforcements, but T could also kill the natural nexus and leave, equalizing their position. Good analysis in your video.
coffeetoss | "Team Liquid Fantasy Proleague: Tales of Miserable Failure and Deep Regret" -Kanil
Torenhire
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States11681 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-26 19:47:29
September 26 2010 19:45 GMT
#48
I watched the replay at your computer, then went over to IsAi. I heard your arguments and I heard his. The only reason I stayed by IsAi was because Rob was sitting right behind him. which is where we gathered to decide on the regame/awarding win to you or him.

I had already decided it was going to be a regame when I saw it at your computer first. While I don't remember 100%, I remember you telling me about your warpgate cycles, how the observer would stop his factory on the highground, your superior army position, pulling your probes, etc. etc. So yes, I DID get your side of the issue. I didn't pick favorites, or anything. Did it favor him by giving a regame? Yes. Was that the ONLY reason I did it? No.

I also did come back there (Zlasher and Alex were there, I am pretty sure) when I came back and told you it was a regame. Like I said in the other thread, I apologized like 50 times about having to issue a regame. If nobody wants to back me up on this, so be it. But don't go trashing people for getting the story wrong when yours isn't perfect either.

Edit: Thanks for the above post, Zlasher. I'm glad someone remembered that.
SirJolt: Well maybe if you weren't so big and stupid, it wouldn't have hit you.
floor exercise
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
Canada5847 Posts
September 26 2010 19:46 GMT
#49
Orb was obviously ahead at the point of the disc, and the terran seemed pretty bad but terran armies/stim being what they are I don't count out the terran at all if he planned on attacking very soon. And to say he wasn't going to when he's outside your nat is pretty stupid, so is thinking you'd reinforce with 4/5 gateways if he broke your natural. And even if you do the game is even at that point anyway if he defends the obviously all-in response. So with the very real possibility of the terran at least equalizing the game I don't think a regame is out of the question, regardless of how bad you think he is or how much of a child a player can be.
Zlasher
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States9129 Posts
September 26 2010 19:47 GMT
#50
On September 27 2010 04:21 PokePill wrote:
Fairly certain, Orb would lose 75% of the time in that engagement. Marauder Marine Medivac wrecks that zealot stalker army with any unit control at all...

Looking at the VoD I would guess Isai is a platinum or low diamond player (loading scvs at start, blind pulling scvs to push, very poor control during push).

So the 25% being him not stimming or misclicking and running his army into Orbs without attacking or chasing the probe across the map and letting orb get in 2 gateway cycles of 8 more units.

30 worker advantage doesn't really mean anything.


the terran army wins that 99% of the time

Isai is a former B- BW player, he was doing stupid as shit strategies that were all-in as hell, but that has absolutely no play on the decision so i don't see the point in bringing it up.

On September 27 2010 04:28 EleanorRIgby wrote:
lol if the admins didn't even talk to orb then thats just fucking low, saying both players opinions were taken in to consideration when you really didn't even speak to him. Pathetic

giving orb the map choice would have been a good descision

Its so hard to regame like that, its gives the opponent a clear advantage and his opponent knew that and abused it. Jesus thats suck


Were you at the tournament? no

Did we talk to orb? No, but he talked to us, and we knew what his opinions and points were since we were 2 feet over his fucking shoulder while he went over the replay 2-3 times.

Did we talk to Isai? NO, he didn't say shit, he didn't do shit afterwards, the guy sat there and waited for the decision without berating anyone afterwards without doing anything, he just waited for a result.
Follow me: www.twitter.com/zlasher
PokePill
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States1048 Posts
September 26 2010 19:47 GMT
#51
On September 27 2010 04:29 -orb- wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 27 2010 04:21 PokePill wrote:
Fairly certain, Orb would lose 75% of the time in that engagement. Marauder Marine Medivac wrecks that zealot stalker army with any unit control at all...

Looking at the VoD I would guess Isai is a platinum or low diamond player (loading scvs at start, blind pulling scvs to push, very poor control during push).

So the 25% being him not stimming or misclicking and running his army into Orbs without attacking or chasing the probe across the map and letting orb get in 2 gateway cycles of 8 more units.


Fairly certain you don't fully understand what's going on in this game. Not only was my opponent not about to attack, but charge was going to be finished soon, my opponent's control was awful, I had a large enough economy to rebuild my army instantly as I lost units.

Even if by some miracle he killed my army in that situation my superior economy would allow me to rebuild my army extremely quickly while his awful economy would not allow him to rebuild quickly at all.

Thus even if by some ridiculous miracle he won that engagement I'd still win the game with extreme ease


Yes, HuK, the admins, and everyone else doesn't understand that your income advantage means nothing in this scenario because the margin of victory the T army rolls you with is too big for your 4 unit cycles of reinforcements and pulling 50 probes.
Zlasher
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States9129 Posts
September 26 2010 19:51 GMT
#52
Pokepill, Terran would have won the engagement but not necessarily the game, since orb will forever have a higher income, and better reproduction. Even if orb lost everything in his naturla at that point he still was at an advantage.

Anyways, I think another thing people need to take into consideration is that Toren, myself, and Rob are all friends with orb, we've known him for much longer and have had no ill-will towards him. Why would that play a role in the decision that we made? In online tournaments with disconnects, if one individual disconnects he can either forfeit the game or regame, and is in no position to demand a win, ie: artosis v slush. Isai didn't disconnect, its not his fault. But to say that, with a losing army, that orb had to be given the move on to the RO4? I'm not so sure how someone is arguing that someone must get kicked out of the tournament that thhey are playing in due to a disconnect by blizzard.
Follow me: www.twitter.com/zlasher
Nokarot
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States1410 Posts
September 26 2010 19:53 GMT
#53
First off, I think I am justified to hypothesize what would have happened in this game both because having played this game myself and the series itself and seeing all my opponents decisions I understand what was going on better than the admins do, and also because my opponent literally played the same way from game 1 through game 3 and thus you can look at his actions and compare them.


The problem is that your hypothesis is based on assuming he wouldn't attempt micromanaging his troops, that you would have the instant gamesense to pull probes before the battle even starts (as opposed to after losing half your army, like most players do), and the assumption that he would chase your probe for 40 seconds and allow you to finish charge when he was 5-10 seconds away from your base.

If he did some stutter-step micro (which maybe I'm giving him too much credit for, but the mere existence of it gives him a chance), surely you're aware how much stronger m&m becomes in that situation when he has stim, especially without zealot charge.

Yes, you'd know better than the admins on whether or not your opponent is capable of such things, but that's no arguement to award you an instant win before the battle has even happened.

Secondly, just because no other tournament has changed maps for a disconnect doesn't mean that in this isolated and unique situation we have to follow exactly what happened in some other tournament in a completely different situation.


You can't expect new rules to be made in an isolated, unique situation that plays in your hand. No tournaments, map imbalance or not, regame on a new map. While he certainly took full advantage of changing up his strategy in the re-game, game 3 was his map choice because he lost game 2. You can't take that away from somebody.

Good job rephrasing what I said and adding curse words in there to make me seem like more of an asshole.


I just watched again. I apologize for adding in the curse word there- it was a lapse of memory on my part. Perhaps you don't care and/or think I'm full of shit and am trying to save face, but I'll edit that out anyway.

While I didn't see any of Isai's BM, theres still no excuse for it. I know this isn't GSL, nor do we have a governing body like KESPA for a local 60-player LAN, but bad manners in general are inexcusable and unprofessional. If you were able to be the better man and walk away, maybe Isai's BM would be under harsher scrutiny.

I don't have any exact quotes to pull from the community-forum thread, but a little in-game BM is a lot different than calling him a "fat fuck" and calling all of the tournament admins "fucking morons/idiots", something which was all on you, not Isai.
beep beep boop
LuckyFool
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States9015 Posts
September 26 2010 19:57 GMT
#54
On September 27 2010 03:19 -orb- wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
I'd like to point out a number of things:

1: The admins didn't talk to me at all regarding the decision. They didn't come over to where I was showing the replay and ask for my opinion on the game. Instead, they spent 10+ minutes standing with IsAi while he showed through the replay

This is terrible professionalism and isn't fair in the slightest. Obviously IsAi was telling them all about how he was about to push and how I wouldn't be able to defend and shit.

Thus you miss the details I saw on my end, such as:
A: If you pay attention to his pathing at the end of the game, IsAi was running after my probe mid and was getting delayed. He was going to chase down the probe until he killed it as you can see with his move actions at the very end of the game. Thus this would have delayed his push, I would have had more units, and charge would have been finished.
B: Due to the fact that I had 51 probes and my opponent had 18, I could have pulled literally every probe at my expansion to help defend and would still have been ahead economically. If you think I would not have been able to defend against that with charge, more units, and ~24+ probes, you don't understand this game at all.
C: Even if by some ridiculous miracle IsAi would have killed my whole army and all my nat's probes, I would have been able to be rebuilding my army the entire time the fight was going on due to my high income and GUARANTEED would have been able to follow up with a larger army due to my income being higher than IsAi's.

2: Look at the simple facts. I was at an advantage (this is thoroughly agreed upon by literally everyone who has seen this replay). Otherwise the series was even (1-1). Thus overall in the series due to this being the last game, I was at an advantage. What you did by calling a regame was completely removed that advantage (more so than you know). You evened the playing field and gave IsAi back even ground with which to play me on. Do you not see how ridiculously unfair that is? At the very least you should have given me map choice. Making me play a regame where my opponent gets to completely rethink he strategy on the most Terran favored map in the map pool is downright absurd.

3: What 99% of you don't realize is that Games 1-3 IsAi literally did the exact same build every single game. He went for an all in infantry push with SCVs every single game. The first game I was caught off guard and won. The second game I adapted and beat it. The third game I had already learned how to beat it and beat it quite easily.
Then, you went and gave him a regame after having me play him 3 games in a row with the same build. What he went and did was abuse this opportunity and fast expand the next game after having all-in'd all three of the legitimate games. This kind of opportunity to change his strategy was already gone and lost by the time it failed in the actual 3rd game. To allow him to do this in an unexpected and unallowed-by-the-rules 4th game is ridiculously unfair and goes against the bo3 rules the tournament laid out. You effectively broke the rules of the tournament (you didn't even write anything in the rules about disconnects despite disconnects and problems with B.net happening in literally every single LAN we've ever done...) and by breaking those rules prevented me illegally from getting potentially up to $300 though more realistically getting at the very least $75. Quite honestly, I don't even care about the money as much as the fact that you think this is just when by hearing you in the video you clearly don't see half the stuff going on in this series or game.

players opinion was considered


Wow, you're going to blatantly lie to people on teamliquid too? You didn't even talk to me after the disconnect happened. I was told by Zlasher that the decision was a regame. You knew what you were doing was unfair and not right so you didn't even have the guts to come tell me your decision? This is let alone actually coming and "considering my opinion" on the game.

although orb had a very large economic advantage, at the point of disconnect the game was not decided. Army composition/cost were fairly even


Right, so what you're saying is that:
1: Our armies were even
2: My economy was at a "very large ... advantage"

So overall I was at a "very large advantage." So with a very large advantage I couldn't be awarded the game? Instead, you have to neutralize that advantage and even the playing field?

With that logic, any time anyone is starting to get a disadvantage in a tournament (or has a very large disadvantage), they should apparently pull the plug and get a regame called since apparently advantages don't mean anything in this game.

In this situation a 15 probe advantage would have been enough to call it, let alone a 33 probe advantage.

I also found it amusing how literally every single player that watched the game at the tournament said I had it won guaranteed, yet the tournament admins decided to disagree with everyone else there, most likely since they were over hanging out with IsAi instead of getting the full picture.

On the flip side anyone who knows me knows I strive to always provide as fair a solution as possible in any situation, define rules beforehand,


Well then you either failed miserably or weren't trying. Let's break this down:
strive to ... provide as fair a solution as possible

But oh wait, you took a huge advantage and leveled it into an even playing field (worse than even for me due to the strategy or playing 3 games getting turned into playing 4)
define rules beforehand

Except that in the rules document you wrote literally nothing about disconnects. I checked it multiple times.

Orb was warned by TL in a post initially after the ruling (before he lost the re game) (source) and basically lost it in the thread after that


Now you're literally just trying to make me look bad so that people will not believe my word. I was warned well after my last post that day was made, I didn't "lose it" after getting warned.

I'm honestly disgusted with your actions.


I'm not trying to make you look bad and I'm not trying to lie. At the time I wished to resolve the issue as best as possible, hence why I even created this thread and recorded a video attempting to explain the decision. And also why we spent over 10 minutes, hearing from both isai and you (you were at isai's pc already fairly irate when torenhire called me over) consulted with EVERY staff member on what sort of decision to come to. You made yourself look bad with how you responded to the decision. You started blatantly attacking both Isai and the admins RIGHT away on TL. (before you even started the re game) and were promptly warned. I am simply bringing attention to this fact. Regardless of the admins decision, calling Isai a "Fat ass" saying the admins are "Fucking morons" minutes after the decision was made is completely unacceptable behavior and I'm sure TL administration would agree with me.

Also I can't speak on Torenhire or Geno's behalf but I know you never once approached me to voice your displeasure with the decision. All I'm seeing is you calling everyone a fucking moron on TL. Do you think I'm going to even try to approach you at this point? What good would it have done other than create a possible ridiculous confrontation? If you handle a situation like a professional you will be treated professionally. You were quite unprofessional in how you conducted yourself and were unnecessarily straining the integrity of the tournament administration.

Even if we did completely fuck up (which I honestly believe we didn't) you shouldn't have responded that way. It would have been impossible to approach you after the decision was made because you had already called the entire administration "fucking morons."

the rules packet did not clearly define a disconnect procedure. This is an unfortunate circumstance that was overlooked when composing the rules. Because you did not rise the issue beforehand though anything in any gray area obviously is ultimately decided upon by the administration/staff. We had an appointed rules official beforehand (torenhire) to deal with issues that arise. By playing in the tournament you in essence agree to the rules and the administration/staff decisions. There was an issue in the morning groups with a disconnect when somebodies PC crashed and the players decided to regame after discussion with admins.

We were interested in making as best a possible decision with the material we have available. In this case Torenhire called me over to review a replay which happened to be open on isai's pc. You had also come over so I absolutely remember it was Torenhire, Geno, Myself, Isai, you and Zlasher reviewing the replay at once. Zlasher was fairly certain the ruling should have been an orb win. Isai was fairly calm and said he thought the game wasn't over, orb was fairly irate saying there was absolutely no way he could have lost, Geno has already voiced his opinion in the thread saying what I agree with, at the time of disconnect you can't be 100% sure of a winner. There is a difference between having an advantage and the game being 100% over.

Test it in the unit tester, 10 marauders, 16 marines+stim, 2 medivacs vs 9 stalkers 10 zeealots (with charge and without charge) and "x" amount of probes. The fight can go any number of ways. At the time of the disconnect isai is chasing a probe. Would he have chased this probe to the other side of the map? Was he planning to delay until a tank builds from the factory? These are questions that are impossible to answer and can only be theorized. The admin team made a decision that it thought was as fair and unbiased as possible at the time with what we saw in the replay. Regardless of how big of an advantage one has one of the great aspects of starcraft is the game is unpredictable and a single mistake, mismicro, better concave or better fight a games tides can be turned.

I'd also like to say I am very disappointed this situation even had to happen and I am extremely annoyed there is no LAN capability on starcraft 2 for the public.
iNcontroL *
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
USA29055 Posts
September 26 2010 20:02 GMT
#55
whether orb would win or lose is irrelevant. It is about a billion % common practice that when a disconnect occurs unless 1 guy is literally finishing off the other guys final pylon/depot or w/e they regame it. ESPECIALLY in a LAN this is the case. The reason being nobody wants to travel to a place and play games only to get robbed of that experience by something completely out of their control.

Orb: It isn't like they gave the other guy the win. If you feel like you were WAY ahead in that game that is fine... based upon what I have heard you were not 100% going to win, or even 85% going to win... you had an advantage and probably could have won (which is still debatable since not everyone sees it that way).

If every lan / tourney had the practice "when a disconnect occurs the guy that was probably ahead wins" we would have a terrible policy for tourneys/lans. Why would anyone continue to play after they get ahead? Why not just yank the internet?

It is preposterous to see the scale of anger here. Had they done what you wanted against you I would completely expect/be ok with your reaction. But they made you regame (which 99% of tourneys/lans would) and you lose fair and square so now you flip huge amounts of shit for pages and pages? Isn't this like, one of your first lans? This really the impression you want to leave?
Zlasher
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States9129 Posts
September 26 2010 20:03 GMT
#56
"Fat fucking piece of shit, taking advantage of you fucking losing a game" was but one of many orb-isms that he SHOUTED ACROSS the room (even though there was only 2 rows of computers and 12 feet separating him and Isai) towards him. Nobody recorded what orb said after game 4 but its pretty much a miracle for orb that ETT, intrigue, hot_bid or any other of the TL admins that have been to the DC area meet ups before didn't hear what you said, I think thats overlooked by many people trying to make an argument on this thread who weren't there.
Follow me: www.twitter.com/zlasher
Torenhire
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States11681 Posts
September 26 2010 20:07 GMT
#57
On September 27 2010 04:04 jennicide wrote:
Every respectable league/tournament has clearly defined rules that govern what do to in the event of a disconnect. That this LAN did not is as much a problem as you claim orb's reaction was. That they spent 10 minutes at one of the competitors computers discussing how to move forward tells me that they were not prepared for this situation. That they were not prepared for a disconnect tells me that they were not prepared to host a tournament. So when you argue it was orb, and solely orb, who tarnished this event you are wrong. Prior planning and preparation prevents poor performance.



It wasn't ten minutes of OH SHIT WHAT DO WE DO?!

It was 10 minutes of the tournament admins, and others, trying to decide if it was a large enough margin between the two players to award a win, or a regame.

While we may have made a mistake in not adding disconnect rules to the rulesheet (next time it will so we don't get criticized for being an unrespectable and unprepared tournament), there's no reason to be acting like he did. Gretorp was very unhappy he had to regame, too, but he didn't take it out on us like it was our fault. Before the argument comes up that the disconnect didn't effect him, he lost the regame, but it was game two. He was pissed about it for a while and then got it together and won the third game in a rather convincing fashion. He shook hands with his opponent afterwards and everything was fine. So while the situation was fucked up, there's no reason to be unprofessional about it. We had multiple disconnect issues during the night, and after the very first one (Lastshadow DC'd somewhere in his group rounds), Rob and I set up a disconnect rule with Geno. Review the replay if the game was in a point where it mattered (after opening builds and whatnot) and make a decision as a group.

Is that unreasonable? The tournament admins make a vote, and we have a 100% vote for regame based on Orb + IsAi's position in the game. Like it's been said time and time again, I know Zlasher was there with me, possibly Geno but I am unsure so I'll exclude him for the moment, and I had made up my mind before I even thought about going to IsAi to find out what he thought. I handled this the same way as I did with Gretorp / Avilo. Went to Gretorp, talked to him for a bit, went to Avilo, got both player's opinions, Gretorp even came over to talk with the group of us watching the replay with Avilo, and (although frustrated to hell, like anyone else would be) agreed to a regame.

This is really our first major tournament, so there's obviously going to be learning to be done. We did well in most things, and I guess if you want one of us to admit it, we didn't do well with making sure we had all our bases covered in terms of rules. So, sorry to everyone who was involved in our screw-ups.
SirJolt: Well maybe if you weren't so big and stupid, it wouldn't have hit you.
Zlasher
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States9129 Posts
September 26 2010 20:08 GMT
#58
He's been to a few lan's in this area (and maybe others) before, he's never blown up like this, but I agree wiht you there incontrol that the win can only be given if someone is cleaning up. Especially since this wasn't Isai's disconnect, it as battlenets.

gretorps game vs avilo (whihc lets admit, is a higher level matchup) disconnected at the same point in time, and gretorp was ahead (not by as much) but gretorp decided to punch a chair and talk it over with avilo without raising his voice, he didn't shout, he didn't yell at anyone, he didn't call anyone fat fucks, he didn't berate the admins for saying that a regame should be given. He regamed, lost, and came back in game 3 with the win. He ended up winning his next two games going on to win the tournament.
Follow me: www.twitter.com/zlasher
mahnini
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
United States6862 Posts
September 26 2010 20:24 GMT
#59
just going by what i read in this thread, i think the admins handled this very well.
the world's a playground. you know that when you're a kid, but somewhere along the way everyone forgets it.
floor exercise
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
Canada5847 Posts
September 26 2010 20:51 GMT
#60
Yeah it was a completely reasonable regame blown completely out of proportion by a nerd raging
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