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I don't know how I feel about this whole Orb thing so I won't comment on that.
But he has a point in his apology that this very true. This should have never been placed on your shoulders. The no LAN functionality reared it's ugly head at the event we were casting the same day.
We had a dropped game that was razor close, but it may have cost someone that would have won a win. Aside for that we had to delay some games for 15 minutes during a massive lag storm on b.net and lost hundreds of viewers.
Piracy sucks, but at what point does the $ you would lose in sales outweigh the increased sales you would see in pushing SCII forward as an e-sport. MANY of our viewers for this event were new, and many were severely put off by the fact that this new game had problems that have an easy solution but it's not there.
It so seems like Blizz could implement a LAN feature through battle.net like they said they would like forever ago. You log on but once the game starts it's run p2p (or something like that) on the LAN. Why when my opponent is sitting 5 feet from me do I have to have all my data sent to the server (New York iirc)? Replay parsing is not a crazy thing when you are the developer of the game. When the game is over the replay gets parsed and all info added to b.net.
Without a LAN feature I cannot imagine SCII growing to it's full potential as an e-sport. Tons of major games will be forever marked with an asterisk due to game x being a drop game when player x probably would have won.
I'm glad to see Orb apologized however, it's not an easy thing to admit you were wrong.
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I appreciate him taking responsibility for his misdeeds, but at the same time, wish he didn't try to further justify his actions in every sentence. The most heartfelt apologies I've heard in my life usually both start and end at "I'm sorry, I fucked up," not "but my dad used to explode, I skipped out on a $300 work day, I wouldn't have to act this way if there was LAN mode, and I still openly hate IsAi and am not able to be the better man and apologize despite receiving attitude."
While I sympathize with all but the last one I mentioned, an apology shouldn't be means to continuously argue your case or win the crowd over. Maybe I am wrong in interpreting it that way- it's hard to not read what he says without a predisposed bias, given his reputation.
At the very least, it's good to know that he's calmed himself down to a level where he's willing to admit guilt. I've met him on two occasions prior to the LAN, and he's been nothing but a nice guy, in person anyway. Obviously his reputation online is.. somewhat unique. In the automated banlist, it said that he was given many many many chances to correct his online persona, but this is the first time we've seen it in person. Therefore, I'm all for giving him a second chance in regards to LANs, now that he hopefully knows better. I still wish he would apologize to IsAi, but I, too, wish IsAi would apologize to him, if he did indeed start some shit.
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On September 27 2010 14:06 ZlaSHeR wrote:
I've said multiple times here, and it hasn't changed, that I'm orb's friend.
Aye. And I expressed this to ETT when he and I were chatting about it - I understand Orb's frustration and the only thing that was out of line was the lashing out at our person. I don't fault him for being pissed over it happening.
Orb is a great guy to hang with at the dinners, and this is really the first time anything went too far.
Along with that, the decision on the possibility of future LAN participation will probably be Rob's final decision, but knowing him, he will take input from everyone and see himself what the consensus may be.
I agree that it should really be Rob's decision, as he is the man-in-command for all these events. He sent me a PM asking my input on the whole deal, I imagine you got it as well...I am assuming he'll make a decision on it once he gets input from us.
Orb: I appreciate the apology. Like I said in a post back whenever, I've known you a long time, not going to let one bad spoil the good. I don't hold grudges 99.9% of the time, I don't intend to start now. As long as you don't continue to call us out on our decision, I don't have a problem with letting you continue to hang out or play in the tournaments. Nobody is perfect (ourselves included) and it was a less-than-great (aka shit) situation...we handled it as best as we could, and it seems like you understand that now.
The only thing I want to see that hasn't been stressed at all (Edit: Nokarot just said it above me), I want to make sure anything between you and IsAi (KamuL on TL) is gone and you're both good w/ each other. IsAi, if you got BM on him, own up to it now...I don't want you and Orb to have any grudges with each other in any future events. You're both great players and fun to hang with, I'd hate for this issue to keep re-surfacing every time you two meet.
Thanks again for coming back with an apology, Orb. A lot of us were somewhat worried that we lost a friendship over something as BS as a BNET DC.
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Before any final decision will be made I would love to hear from both Geno and Isai if they wish to respond.
Isai I'm sure will continue to be a part of possible tournaments in the area in the future. For Orb to not apologize at all to Isai, and specifically state that, does matter in this case, especially considering the amount of lashing out Orb did against Isai publicly in the tournament thread. Orb and Isai's personal business should be kept between Orb and Isai but by the kind of posting Orb did during the tournament in the thread for anyone to see made it more than just Orb and Isai's business. Any possible underlying issues or problems that may exist between the two will absolutely factor into any decisions made regarding Orb's involvement moving forward.
If Geno and Isai haven't responded or don't wish to respond before noon or so tomorrow expect my statement then.
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Isai didn't BM him, orb was starting off on game 3 about how imba LT is for terrans and that its BM to pick a map in the map pool, go figure. When the games were over and orb was going off on isai, he didn't say anything back he was just sitting there, eventually went outside for a smoke but he definitely wasn't the one being BM. orb also considered looking at replays of the other games BM, and changing to a fast expand in the game 4 as BM.
And to Toren, yes I got the PM, gave him what I think is the best option, he also has an opinion on the best option, and he'll put yours and Geno's together, but its not like he'll override something if he disagrees with the three of us, Rob will make his decision based on consensus.
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On September 27 2010 15:29 ZlaSHeR wrote:
And to Toren, yes I got the PM, gave him what I think is the best option, he also has an opinion on the best option, and he'll put yours and Geno's together, but its not like he'll override something if he disagrees with the three of us, Rob will make his decision based on consensus.
What I meant, I guess I just worded it stupidly. lol.
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On September 27 2010 15:29 ZlaSHeR wrote:
Isai didn't BM him, orb was starting off on game 3 about how imba LT is for terrans and that its BM to pick a map in the map pool, go figure. When the games were over and orb was going off on isai, he didn't say anything back he was just sitting there, eventually went outside for a smoke but he definitely wasn't the one being BM. orb also considered looking at replays of the other games BM, and changing to a fast expand in the game 4 as BM.
I think orb said that IsAi started the BM in games 1-2 and/or battle.net chat (the latter of which wouldn't appear in the replay obviously.)
No idea whether any of that is true, however.
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I don't think it was true, considering isai's mannerisms and personality in game, on the forums, and in person.
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I don't really see how orb would lose this game TBH. His rage was pretty understandable.
Even if the admins would rather not give the win to the player with the massive advantage, he should've at least been given choice of map or something for the regame.
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Eh. There's no reason anyone should let orb off of this as long as he doesn't apologize Isai for all the shit that he has spewed towards him. It's ludicrous that he even thinks that he's justified regardless of whether Isai was BM to him or not (which other witnesses seem not to agree with). He's so adamant to completely disregard the person who was subject to his antics. It's really a crapshoot apology because he's absolutely refusing to apologize to the person who he should be apologizing the most to.
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On September 27 2010 16:25 FawkingGoomba wrote:
I don't really see how orb would lose this game TBH. His rage was pretty understandable.
Even if the admins would rather not give the win to the player with the massive advantage, he should've at least been given choice of map or something for the regame.
Did you read the thread? It was said by us, and a TON of other people that we fucked up in that aspect. We get it. Stop reiterating the same thing over and over again.
I got a great idea, guys. Let's start up the argument all over again. Everyone is going to have a different view on what should have happened/who was going to win. There's no point in bringing it back up as it's done and over with now.
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On September 27 2010 16:25 FawkingGoomba wrote:
I don't really see how orb would lose this game TBH. His rage was pretty understandable.
Even if the admins would rather not give the win to the player with the massive advantage, he should've at least been given choice of map or something for the regame.
For the next LAN, I plan on unleashing a contingency plan so epic that it shall be copyrighted the "Zlasher method of battle.net disconnects". I'll release the idea when the time is right ;o
as for Isai, if you guys saw him there he handled it exactly how he should have. Wait for the admins to make a call, go along with the call, play it out, go outside and have a smoke. No yelling, no raising voices, no name calling or anything, just go about your business.
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The 100% exists for situations that are 100% clear. Though orb had a big advantage this was in absolutely no way fully decided. When talking about a player who cannot lose the game you're talking about situations where one player could happily make a move-command mistake lose a bunch of units and still roll his opponent over no problem. In this game in particular I would even go as far as that if this was a good terran player vs a good protoss player that the terran army rolls him over every time. The game was in no way decided although orb had a large advantage (also due to skill).
I will never understand getting angry at frustrated at well-willing tournament organizers. Hosting tournaments is a very hard, but also unrewarding job. I see someone mention if you don't have rules in place against disconnects you are not fit to host tournaments.. I don't even think OGN/MSL have publicly stated rules about this. Either way to have disconnects happen at this rate at LAN tournaments is a pretty new situation and it's going to take a while before every tournament out there understands that Bnet is so fucked up that these rules absolutely need to be in place. But even if they weren't in place and they refer to what imo are the best rules out there (TL rules) then they still made the right decision.
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On September 27 2010 16:25 FawkingGoomba wrote:
I don't really see how orb would lose this game TBH. His rage was pretty understandable.
Even if the admins would rather not give the win to the player with the massive advantage, he should've at least been given choice of map or something for the regame.
We can recreate the same situation on bnet if you'd like. After watching that replay multiple times, I changed my mind about the outcome of the game. I don't know how good Isai's micro is, but I do know at least some terrans could win that fight and actually kill the natural.
2 Nazgul: iirc the "default" disconnect rule is:
1. regame if both players agree to regame
2. if they do not agree, tournament admin makes the decision
I'm not sure if that's the same as TL rules.
Everything happened exactly as it was supposed to. Players disagreed, officials made the decision, tourny went on.
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Okay well that is a fine rule for a small tournament that doesn't want to invest hours upon hours to create a ruleset. Definitely not like the TL rules. Our rules say that you have to have the game 100% won in order to get a win for a disconnect.
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On September 27 2010 17:32 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
Okay well that is a fine rule for a small tournament that doesn't want to invest hours upon hours to create a ruleset. Definitely not like the TL rules. Our rules say that you have to have the game 100% won in order to get a win for a disconnect.
How is that mutually exclusive with what I've written?
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How can a game ever be 100% won? If the person in the advantage gets a heart attack and the other person has a command center adn 50 minerals, doesn't that mean he wins?
This is why the rule either has to be always 100% regame (meh) or have a group of admins come to an agreement on the result of the game (usually this happens) but then THAT gets arbitrary when a line is drawn and the admins are split, or it is a close decision
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On September 28 2010 00:59 ZlaSHeR wrote:
How can a game ever be 100% won? If the person in the advantage gets a heart attack and the other person has a command center adn 50 minerals, doesn't that mean he wins?
This is why the rule either has to be always 100% regame (meh) or have a group of admins come to an agreement on the result of the game (usually this happens) but then THAT gets arbitrary when a line is drawn and the admins are split, or it is a close decision
Well, I like to believe in a thing called common sense.
Common sense mixed with good SC2 knowledge should be able to weed out the answers to most of these disputes.
Watched the replay, orb had the advantage, but did he have the game? No. Regame was the best possible solution, on the other hand if Isai really did act like orb said he did, then I do kinda understand his anger.
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Korea (South)11591 Posts
Ok i know how to settle this. BO9 Brood War, streamed and shoutcasted, and loser pays for the other players dinner at MLG.
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Ok first of all I'd like to give a big thanks for everyone who's responded and given input into the situation, especially Torenhire, Zlasher, GenoZStriker and Nokarot who were in attendance when it happened. This was not an easy situation. In fact in the nearly 2 years that I've been hosting lans and coordinating tournaments I can probably say this was the most difficult situation that has arisen and I've had to deal with.
As people may know, I didn't run the tournament alone, nor did I ever want to. Torenhire was appointed rules official before the day of the tournament and GenoZStriker came on a little later and ended up being our third officially appointed admin before any of the games started for the tournament. While I may be the final ultimate authority because I am the event coordinator, I will never be a dictator. I am always committed to making decisions that are fair and correct. So I will always ask others opinions in order to try and fully understand situations like this, because lan events, tournaments and anything else I run or coordinate are ultimately for TL and the Starcraft community. A fun enjoyable event for everyone is always my primary focus when coordinating anything for the community. This was a very difficult situation that was brought on ultimately by an error with Battle.net which is outside both the players and the administrations control. The fact that this even had to happen was not a result of anyone but Blizzards wrong doing. Neither Orb, Isai, the tournament lan center, or administration was at fault for the problem that caused this situation to happen.
I can fully accept Orbs apology.
While I am disappointed in how he reacted, specifically things he said to Isai and the administration in the tournament thread I do realize Orb is a very competitive and outspoken player. I've known this for about as long as I've known Orb which dates back to well before Starcraft 2 or his stream. That being said there are lines that cannot be crossed. Accusing and not respecting the administration during a tournament, flaming and throwing hostile statements to a fellow tournament player is totally unacceptable behavior that I won't tolerate during competitive events that I coordinate. Orb has apologized for all of this and I and the administration fully accepts it. The administration never wanted to wrong anyone, we simply did what we thought was best and most fair at the time regardless of any possible personal bias or player reputation. Our primary focus as an administration team was and will continue to be providing as fair a competition as possible, treating and respecting all players competing as equals.
TL has already issued a 30 day ban for his actions on Saturday. Regardless of if TL reviews his ban duration and lowers it because of this apology the only further disciplinary action I deem necessary on my part is to issue a stern warning. Because Orb has attended so many events in the past and handled himself professionally during those events I feel a stern warning is necessary in this situation. Actions like we saw on Saturday will not be tolerated. I expect players to treat each other with respect and dignity. I also expect players to respect the decisions made by the administration team. These are basic principles I would expect any player competing in my events to follow. If anything of this nature happens again Orb can expect a full ban from future events and tournaments that I coordinate.
Orb is fully invited to continue being a part of D.C area events and tournaments. One rough situation like this will not be allowed to sever what has been a positive relationship with Orb up to this point. I also would like to say at this time that I personally enjoyed having Orb attend events in the past. We both share a passion for the game and the community, I respect what he's done for the TL community, his stream has been immensely popular, he's done shows in the past, offered strategy advice, has contributed to Liquipedia, provided amazing and lengthy coverage during beta, and I'm sure he has done more that I don't know.
In conclusion I would like to say I run events for the players, if the players are not happy I am not happy. I am always open to any and all suggestions anyone has for improving events or tournaments and hope to have many positive experiences moving into the future with Orb and all of TL.
-Rob G.
D.C Area Tournament Coordinator.
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EPT
