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Okay I went and picked zerg today and I got a million ZvZ's and maybe 20% ZvT and ZvP but i got a couple good games: Note: Games are longer but they are at a disadvantage and it's not close at the end.
VS 2 GATE AGRESSION: [1650 rated #2 plat toss, me being #1]
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Notes:
This was like the second time facing this type of play, since they only start doing it once you reach higher platinum it seems. I made a couple points after the other similar game and at the very start of this one that ended up working really well:
-Scout with a drone and go 15 hatch and not 16 if you scout this fast gateway no gas build
-This allows you to get 6 lings straight away and extractor trick for the queen
-Don't bother teching he's going eco so you can go eco, I was going for 3 queens but 1 got killed, the third just for extra defense/creep tumours.
-Don't take all your gas that quick you want lots of minerals.
VS 4 WARPGATE [vs 1700 rated #1 plat protoss]
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Notes:
-I skipped lair because he walled off core/gate [to stop baneling bust] and I clearly saw the chrono on the warpgate.
-I did extra damage getting in but I also had a traitor OL kamikaze for no reason so it evens out.
-I didn't even need the spine crawler, this was a 7:20 or so push that you "need 4-6 crawlers" to defend.
-The push was defended easily so even vs a better player It should have still been OK
-This push is MUCH weaker vs roaches because of the no immortals so it relies on hitting you earlier, so just don't drone as hard.
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I just got my first FE-nuke in like a month. I feel like a fuckin' rock star.
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yeah, thing ive found that works best against toss is 1 hatch get like 6 mutas then expand while pumping more, i usually die when i FE
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Gais, I can't sheem to shpend all my mineralsh on dronesh. Protossh shpends their mineralsh on unitsh and I get owned.
Why can't I hash free expanshion when I play zerg?
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i tend to lose to Z that get like 4 towers early and mass roach.. you dont need hydra to stop stalker/sentry/zealot
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Singapore147 Posts
how can FE be a problem when people like idra and artosis do it every single game? it's just a risk- if you're not skilled enough to micro your lings or recognize when you have to spam spine crawlers then you're going to lose
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Theres two timings
1: with immortal
2: without immortal
Make sunkens before this and youve won the eco game
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On May 03 2010 02:44 Vexx wrote:
Gais, I can't sheem to shpend all my mineralsh on dronesh. Protossh shpends their mineralsh on unitsh and I get owned.
Why can't I hash free expanshion when I play zerg?
Bit not polite maybe but I have to agree completely with this.
Like that first game control ~55 both Z drones 33 P probes 26 when the attack came.
Why this attack should have failed?
No rush 15min...
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On May 03 2010 02:58 pigscanfly wrote:
how can FE be a problem when people like idra and artosis do it every single game? it's just a risk- if you're not skilled enough to micro your lings or recognize when you have to spam spine crawlers then you're going to lose
Idra and Artosis have also both lost to fast "cheesy" builds from Protoss. The meta-game is not stable to the point where FE is always safe, but then it never is and wasn't in BW (where even top players could lose to cheese). I think the point should be that cheeses do and will continue to work and there's nothing you can do about it playing standard (scouting "early" is not always enough, especially if your standard play requires an early commitment ie Zerg FE) - you just have to deal with it because the cheeser is taking just as big of a risk as you are, since just about all cheese can be stopped by a more economically viable build if you suspect that it is coming.
So to that end, the meta-game becomes a mind game, and some things are left to chance. This does not make FE unviable. A strategy is standard ("safe") because it has the highest chance of winning against all possible builds. It does not mean that the build will work 100% of the time against all possible builds. Cheese will win against standard at a lopsided ratio - that's why it's cheese - but unless it is also viable against all other builds, standard will not change.
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4 Gate is pretty much considered all-in. That means that you do whatever it takes to defend and if you do you're likely going to come out on top. As Toss... one thing I've noticed is that Zerg players always seem overly greedy with pumping drones when they can't afford it. If there's an all-in push, devote your larva to defense.
I'd suggest 1 base roaches and sunkens (as said above) Once the Toss either retreats or you hold him off you need to act quick. Either counter push or expand.
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I've been doing
14hatch
14pool
and have been constantly getting raped by 2 gate zealots. Even when i knew they were 2 gating and prob coming. i couldnt get enough crawlers or lings out in time.
can anyone suggest a better FE BO for ZVP??
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I don't think that, even using cartoon's build, you can FE if you scout 2 gate. I find it impossible to keep up with the zealot production even constantly spamming lings and queens.
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You will only lose if you don't scout.. Not scouting is hard counter to FE. If he pushes too hard to early, cancel and defend/counter. If Toss is going 4 gate early, I would be a bit scared if my FE was down, enough so to start pumping units asap.
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On May 10 2010 16:56 Azarkon wrote:
The meta-game is not stable
Sweet.
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On May 11 2010 01:13 sooch wrote:
I don't think that, even using cartoon's build, you can FE if you scout 2 gate. I find it impossible to keep up with the zealot production even constantly spamming lings and queens.
You don't have to confront them. Just scare them into not leaving their base. Put some Speedlings near his ramp, essentially out of sight. If you see a wad of Zealots halfway to your base, run the Speedlings through the front door and start smashing Probes. He might leave 1 or 2 Zealots behind to block that door, but that's just a minor roadblock and means less Zealots you have to deal with if he decides to keep going to your base instead of coming back to defend. At that point its either an all-in Zealot charge, or you just crippled his economy and he just tries to rebuild.
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I also seem to have a problem vs protoss that rushes 2 or 4 gateway
I use the following build:
13 Pool
15 Hatch at natural
Drone until Pool finishes, then I go lings + queen, sunken expo with 2-3 sunken as soon as I can. I also move my queen to expansion after I use the larva spell and make a second queen at main.
If I keep making zerglings + roach , I survive, but eventually the protoss will overpower me with better economy, since he can make probes while im stuck making units, especially if he keeps doing heavy ground with a few Void rays
If I start making drones, he will roll me over with his army
If I make drones at expo and units at main, I also dont seem to have enough units to fend off his following waves
I'm only a gold player, but keep ending up playing platinum players.
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Against zergs that FE at around 14 (14 pool / 14 hatch), I've been doing a double 12 gateway chrono boosted zealot rush. I sprinkle in about 3-4 probes (if his pool is earlier than 14) to mess around with the enemy AI and extra DPS. If the probes aren't attacking (using the stop command on them), the zerglings / queens will not target them. If you alternate this attack / stop cycle the zerglings don't kill shit since they're basically shifting their DPS between zealots and probes. Also, the probes prevent the zerglings from surrounding zealots. However, just using the attack command with zealots & probes ends up with the probes dying horribly and the attack getting pushed back much more easily. For what it's worth, I usually catch the queen en-route for the transfer to his expansion when this attack arrives, which is also an added bonus.
I think it is very risky for zerg to expand that quickly against a toss that is doing this type of attack. You might want to hold off on the FE until speedlings, then FE and get roaches to handle sentry / zealot / stalker combos.
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The best way to defend against 4 gate is to use a pack of speedlings to threaten a back stab or delay the toss army from moving out while putting up spine crawlers (you HAVE to delay or your spine crawlers will not go up in time). Then watch them suicide on your wall or fall back. After they fall back expand your creep and take a third.
Remember 4 gate is semi-all in, if they fail to at least kill your expo they are behind. Save your drones and defend = ez win because macroing against zerg when zerg is ahead is suicide.
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Russian Federation396 Posts
speedlings with 3-5sunkens will allow you to survive easily, 4warpgate is an all-in, as such, if u scout it, you can negate it
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Scout with a drone on 10, if you see 2 gate before gas, do 1 base fast roach then expand as soon as you have the 7-9 roaches. Those are the zergs that give me the most trouble and stopped me from ever 2 gating (1700 toss). Often, you can just win with the roaches as well.
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EPT
