EPTOh wait, at my level it doesn't matter one bit....
ZvP is imbalanced - Page 3
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thopol
Japan4560 Posts
Oh wait, at my level it doesn't matter one bit.... | ||
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Highways
Australia6098 Posts
Having said that, iccup (D - C) Protosses can die. Such a noob no skill race. | ||
OneOther
United States10774 Posts
 i just meant that the difficulty doesn't exist only in the progaming and semi-progaming realm. i feel like pvz gets drastically harder after b- or so. there's a huge jump in the matchup all of a sudden | ||
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lokiM
United States3407 Posts
On September 25 2009 18:18 OneOther wrote: i think he was talking about one gate tech builds, which isn't viable on rampless maps like colosseum. imo python is one of the good maps to one gate on. well ofc, i was only saying colo2 if you were to 1gate > FE | ||
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UGC4
Peru532 Posts
OKAY how about we make a list of ZERG adaptations to the PROTOSS fast expand builds, and other innate problems in the Protoss FE build order? i'll start with the biggest changes that I have personally seen lately (these are not in any particular order of importance, it's just the order in which they came to me): 1- Zergs have better muta/scourge control. (Jaedong vs Stork @ Katrina) Zerg players have realized that scourging and cloning are as important for ZvP than in ZvT, if not more. 2- Zerg players can now easily prevent DTs because they have studied the Protoss builds, especially Bisu's. In every game that I watch nowadays, as long as there is one overlord per base, it's practically impossible to get anything done with one or two DTs. With no harassment to the zerg economy, only rape can result. 3- There is a problem with the Bisu build. The problem is called No-Fucking-Detection. Zerg players nowadays are exploiting the build order of the Bisu build with LURKERS and their inherit advantage over zealots, the main unit in the protoss army against zergs. With the Bisu build, players have no detection for quite a while, since templar tech is given such high priority. This almost always results in (1) Protoss getting contained (2) Protoss losing map control (3) Protoss being unable to be offensive. 4- Zerg players have studied the Protoss timings. The infamous hydra breaks of JulyZerg are so popular nowadays. (JulyZerg vs Bisu @ Bluestorm, Yarnc vs Anytime @ outsider, etc) This applies to the Bisu build as well as the Corsair/Reaver build, though it's safe to say that the Corsair/Reaver build is a little better at defending these because of the first reaver that comes out. 5- Zerg players have become better at Storm dodging. This is all their credit of course, but people have realized that with a little more micro on the hydras, they can rape the Protoss army easily. 6- The Protoss Fast Expand Build order does not offer many surprises or variations. I seriously fell in love with Movie after his first MSL game against Jaedong because he brought something so new to the table. His dragoon push was unparalleled to any other variations that have been seen (I think it was more aggressive and had a better timing than Much's variations and Bisu's goon/reaver remix). But other than that, there is not much that can catch the Zerg player with his pants down, and if there is, it will only happen so often because they study it to death. The Protoss Fast Expand, by nature, is a self-contained build order, and unlike the Zerg, cannot always HIDE information as well (i mean shit overlords can fly). 7- This might be just me, but I feel like after every Fast Expand, I am uncomfortable with my mineral-to-gas ratio, which tends to be as high as 3:1. This is obviously inevitable since the Forge, Pylons, Cannons, Gates, and Nexi rely solely on minerals, but perhaps the build order of the Fast Expand can be changed. My suggestions are either (1) build your main gas before the Fast Expand Gateway and mine with one or two probes or (2) build your assimilator at your natural as your Nexus builds, so that as soon as it is finished building you can split 3 probes onto the gas and the other 2 or 3 to mineral mining, instead of sending them all to minerals. This might result in a later Cybernetics Core. This is a serious problem because a slanted mineral-to-gas ratio will force you into making more zealots or might limit your number of high templars, which Zerg players have become so good at sniping (Zero vs Bisu @ Heartbreak Ridge for fuck's sake). I also feel like gas is incredibly important for the Protoss army in the late game, since Archons are literally the only unit that can withstand Ultralisks. 8- In the late game, the Protoss should do something special. Against Terrans, Protoss can switch to arbiter tech or carrier tech. However, against Zergs, the only thing I have seen is a couple of players trying Dark Archons in the late game. I think that's a great idea, but I also think Carrier/Corsair is a solution. Perhaps we can create a build order which allows Protoss players to switch tech between templar tech, reaver tech, and carrier tech. Much like the tech switches of the Zerg against the Protoss and the Terrans, I think this is the only way to catch them off guard. Aside from all the other reasons that people give, such as Protoss players slumping (which I disagree with as far as this particular topic is involved--aside from Bisu no other protoss player can be said to have outstanding PvZ, not violet, not anyone), the match up of Protoss Vs Zerg is once again starting to tilt in favor of the Zerg. I am not saying that there is an inherit imbalance between the races, all I am saying is that something needs to be done. The Bisu build had something special in it, and this is what made it so strong--the element of surprise and the unseen. However, Protoss players have exhausted this build so much so that not even Bisu uses it lately (just look at his games, he prefers going Corsair/Reaver). What I propose is a slower tech tree for the Protoss Build Order. I think instead of rushing to Templar Archives, one should stay on Starport, Citadel, and Robotics, and react accordingly. If the Zerg is massing hydras, Storms are perhaps the way to go, skipping DTs if possible. If Lurkers come your way, an early Observatory will allow you to be aggressive. If Mutas come your way, I would recommend Corsair/Reaver. Basically, I think the future of Protoss vs Zerg lies in the Corsair/Reaver build. Not so much the current one, but a remix of it. I think Protoss players will almost always lose the ground battles because the Zerg's macro can sustain a bigger and stronger ground army. So the Protoss are going to have to gain air control, and I don't mean partially, I mean 100% of it. The only way a Protoss can stop the Zerg economy from reaching its peak is harassment. This harassment can only come through guerrila and sneaky tactics. That's what the Bisu build gave us. But now we have to create more ways of doing so, and do so at a larger scale. I hope people start taking this topic more seriously. Even if the statistics don't show it, something needs to be done because exploiting one build and one build only becomes mundane and predictable. I hope more people contribute to the list that I have given so that we can start looking at other paradigms of Protoss vs Zerg. thx | ||
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Sosha
United States749 Posts
It's a really hard matchup for sure! I've give it to ppl that will say that BW is "balanced" or prolly as close to being completely balanced as it can get, or any other RTS game, but also, ZvP does seem to definately veer towards the Z side in advantages.. I know each race has their own distinct advantages, obvioulsy, like Terran being good at surviving aka turtling, Protoss being strong w/ rvr's, temps, arbs etc, and Zerg being able to mass like a biatch, plus dark swarm, ultras etc. but in the specific matchup, I think Zerg starts w/ more advantages. Overlords, for one. They get to see ur base, normally well before ur cy-core comes up, and they can escape w/ the knowledge of ur tech choice. Considering most P's FE these days, which is standard, that gives a good Z the ability to 3 hatch w/ 2 extra expansions, and gives them enough time to defend them pretty well. From there, it's pretty much a guessing game as Protoss. Most of the time, we're supposed to go for Corsairs, to see what they're doing and perhaps provide some harass. Well, the Zerg pretty much knowing this tech choice (from OL scout) can either go for spire/den build and go skurge just enough to kill off any sairs or they can go 4+ hatch hydra for an early break, or they can still power up enough muta + skurge to still do significant dmg. Only if a Protoss really knows mutas are coming can they particularly prepare for them and if they read the Z's build wrong, and put too much muta-D up, they'll switch it up and go all for hydras, making that money useless.. or they'll make P defend up so much, they can just sit and take another base, chill w/ lurkers and by the time we get to robo/obs after going str8 for temp tech, they alrdy have 4+ gas etc.. so ya, from start to finish, it takes good insight, good multitasking, harass and macro to stand a chance - but the zergs are always that 1 step ahead. Not to mention their food supply is their dropships - so at any time, they can mass drop u.. which is almost unpredictable, until it happens. Then theres also the cracklings, which can destroy whole townships in seconds.. (nexus in liek less than 5). That would be like our Pylons acting as cannons too.. or something huge :O gL though Protoss <3 | ||
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sashkata
Bulgaria3241 Posts
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Camlito
Australia4040 Posts
On September 25 2009 18:46 Sosha wrote: I mean.. i'll throw this out there just because i'm a Protoss user w/ hundreds of games of experience in the matchup and watching all the pro-gaming i can.. It's a really hard matchup for sure! I've give it to ppl that will say that BW is "balanced" or prolly as close to being completely balanced as it can get, or any other RTS game, but also, ZvP does seem to definately veer towards the Z side in advantages.. I know each race has their own distinct advantages, obvioulsy, like Terran being good at surviving aka turtling, Protoss being strong w/ rvr's, temps, arbs etc, and Zerg being able to mass like a biatch, plus dark swarm, ultras etc. but in the specific matchup, I think Zerg starts w/ more advantages. Overlords, for one. They get to see ur base, normally well before ur cy-core comes up, and they can escape w/ the knowledge of ur tech choice. Considering most P's FE these days, which is standard, that gives a good Z the ability to 3 hatch w/ 2 extra expansions, and gives them enough time to defend them pretty well. From there, it's pretty much a guessing game as Protoss. Most of the time, we're supposed to go for Corsairs, to see what they're doing and perhaps provide some harass. Well, the Zerg pretty much knowing this tech choice (from OL scout) can either go for spire/den build and go skurge just enough to kill off any sairs or they can go 4+ hatch hydra for an early break, or they can still power up enough muta + skurge to still do significant dmg. Only if a Protoss really knows mutas are coming can they particularly prepare for them and if they read the Z's build wrong, and put too much muta-D up, they'll switch it up and go all for hydras, making that money useless.. or they'll make P defend up so much, they can just sit and take another base, chill w/ lurkers and by the time we get to robo/obs after going str8 for temp tech, they alrdy have 4+ gas etc.. so ya, from start to finish, it takes good insight, good multitasking, harass and macro to stand a chance - but the zergs are always that 1 step ahead. Not to mention their food supply is their dropships - so at any time, they can mass drop u.. which is almost unpredictable, until it happens. Then theres also the cracklings, which can destroy whole townships in seconds.. (nexus in liek less than 5). That would be like our Pylons acting as cannons too.. or something huge :O gL though Protoss <3 Err... this is about the PRO LEVEL in particular. ZvP at my level is equally as hard... i may have an ovie in your base, but it doesn't mean i completely understand what you are doing or how to counter it. I have lost many games where the core was spinning , and it wasn't what i predicted out of goon range/corsairs. ZvP, at D-C (or even some B players who just cheese.. which is alot now -_-) need some sick mechanics to pull off the advantages zerg seems to have, along with macro. Also knowing how to counter, when to drone, when to expo.. protosses complain about pvz just as much as zergs/terrans complain about protoss, but i've realized, along with others (i hope) of both races that the other race is equally as hard. Protoss are so strong on paper, but can die instantly to something they didnt expect or prepare for. It takes sick game sense, scouting, multitasking (these 2 are combined in a way) and understanding of the matchup to improve at it, while Zerg really needs to: understand how to counter what the protoss is doing, knowing when to drone/unit, and subtle micro (temp sniping, obs sniping, lurk spreading, flanking, storm dodging). Directed to lower (b- or before) players Protoss - ZvP is HARD in many ways Zerg - PvZ is HARD in many ways Just have to deal with it. | ||
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MuffinDude
United States3837 Posts
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CharlieMurphy
United States22895 Posts
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Foucault
Sweden2826 Posts
On September 25 2009 17:12 motbob wrote: ZvP is seriously imbalanced at the pro and semi-pro level. It's remarkable how that fact has sort of snuck up on us over the past few months, but it's absolutely true. Since about March, it seems like zergs have reached a point in the metagame where they always have the build order advantage. Whether it's because of Jaedong leading the way for zergs everywhere, or the inability for protosses to come up with any innovation in their play since the zealot/archon push that was popular 8 months ago, Protosses are in a bad place right now when they play zerg. And it's not the maps. Destination used to be balanced ZvP (56-54 before Mar 1 2009). Now it is not (61-44 after). Let's talk numbers. In the upcoming OSL prelims, the maps used are Destination, Heartbreak Ridge, and Return of the King. The combined stats for those three maps after early March, including "non-official" games like prelim games, is 60% ZvP. Outsider is 41-27 (60.3%). Neo Medusa is 34-25 (57.6%). Why is this matchup suddenly so drastically imbalanced? I agree with you wholeheartedly. There is something seriously wrong with this matchup and I've been of the same opinion for ages. Zerg just has the ability to overrun protoss so easily and protoss is so fragile in this matchup. Zerg counters are hard, they can switch tech, and finally just get imba swarm and imbalisks and own. And yeah people, it's not about the maps so stop trying to understand map statistics based on ridiculously low sample sizes. My own theory is that big maps is good for zerg in ZvP because they can expo all over and it's hard for protoss to move around everywhere. The recent maps seem to be quite big. Terran is also at an disadvantage on big maps btw | ||
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Foucault
Sweden2826 Posts
On September 25 2009 17:20 Camlito wrote: I can beat c+ zergs TvZ with Go figure. edit: like the person below. Are you seriously comparing doing micro-intensive leta/fantasy builds in TvZ to massing hydras and 1a2a3a in ZvP? Zerg has the ability to build up and reinforce their army so fast when under attack while protoss hasn't. Also the micro intensive PvZ and the generally macro based ZvP contradict each other so much that protoss has to do double the amount of work in this matchup compared to zerg, and still they loose. | ||
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arbiter_md
Moldova1219 Posts
And indeed watching the pro-pvz lately I felt bad about the protosses. They seem to have no solution for now and the new maps with impossible FE make this just laughable. | ||
Liquid`Ret
Netherlands4511 Posts
any zergs opening, sets them behind right now. Overpool -> 14 forge 14 nexus , 1 cannon, 2nd cannon if 8 lings instead of 6. -> corsair hits you super fast 9 pool -> low drone, altho p has to make 2 cannons imo your behind. 12 hatch -> risk of getting probe blocked and p going gate gas core before a cannon and his corsair hitting you super early. speedlings builds, although strong, often have to be allin because protoss wont respect zerg for going speedlings and just play a normal build, in which case you teched after speedling their tech will be far ahead of u. this is what happens on 2 players like desti and heartbreak all the time, and if the protoss is as good as you are then you are gonna have a rly hard time dealing with their superior build orders.. I can't remember a good pro pvz series which would lead me to believe zerg vs protoss was imbalanced for zerg... I wonder what you guys have been watching. I hope it's not the PMT stuff. Wait till Proleague or MSL/OSL and the protoss will do fine. | ||
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Camlito
Australia4040 Posts
On September 25 2009 19:29 Foucault wrote: Are you seriously comparing doing micro-intensive leta/fantasy builds in TvZ to massing hydras and 1a2a3a in ZvP? Zerg has the ability to build up and reinforce their army so fast when under attack while protoss hasn't. Also the micro intensive PvZ and the generally macro based ZvP contradict each other so much that protoss has to do double the amount of work in this matchup compared to zerg, and still they loose. micro-intensive? You think there is no fucking micro in ZvP? Massing just hydra and flanking is easy, but that doesn't work if the protoss isn't a retard. I hate people who keep fucking thinking zvp takes no micro. It only takes no micro late game :D. | ||
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Foucault
Sweden2826 Posts
On September 25 2009 19:38 ret wrote: heh, this idea just seems like total crap to me when I know hard I get rolled when I 5 hat hydra / muta by very very simple zeal archon storm builds with a hardcore focus on macro. (foreigners can't do that luckily.) any zergs opening, sets them behind right now. Overpool -> 14 forge 14 nexus , 1 cannon, 2nd cannon if 8 lings instead of 6. -> corsair hits you super fast 9 pool -> low drone, altho p has to make 2 cannons imo your behind. 12 hatch -> risk of getting probe blocked and p going gate gas core before a cannon and his corsair hitting you super early. speedlings builds, although strong, often have to be allin because protoss wont respect zerg for going speedlings and just play a normal build, in which case you teched after speedling their tech will be far ahead of u. this is what happens on 2 players like desti and heartbreak all the time, and if the protoss is as good as you are then you are gonna have a rly hard time dealing with their superior build orders.. I can't remember a good pro pvz series which would lead me to believe zerg vs protoss was imbalanced for zerg... I wonder what you guys have been watching. I hope it's not the PMT stuff. Wait till Proleague or MSL/OSL and the protoss will do fine. Sure but how come like almost every pro protoss has PvZ as their worst matchup statistically? | ||
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UGC4
Peru532 Posts
Good at PvZ: Bisu. Stork isn't bad. Violet got some recognition but he's really not very consistent. Good at ZvP: Savior, JulyZerg, By.Hero, Zero are all (in)famous for their ZvP. Jaedong, Calm, Luxury, and other Zergs can easily be said to be better at the match up than protoss players like Jangbi, Kal, Best. There is a reason, or more than one, like the 8 that i just gave... if you think this thread is bogus, by all means diss it. but if you think you have something to contribute, please do so. it's important for some people u know oO | ||
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Camlito
Australia4040 Posts
On September 25 2009 19:48 Foucault wrote: Sure but how come like almost every pro protoss has PvZ as their worst matchup statistically? First page of TLPD: Protoss' worst matchups statistically 1. Bisu - PvT 61.03% 2. Kal - PvP 53.52% 3. Stork - PvZ 54.07% Not bad? 4. JangBi PvP 53.03% 5. Horang2 PvZ: 2-3 (40.00%) (untested) 6. BeSt PvZ 49.15% 7. free PvP 47.67% 8. Violet PvT 41.67% 9. jjonga (how is he 9th..?) PvP (0%) (His PvZ is 5-3) 10. Shuttle PvT 40.54% 11. BackHo PvZ 38.46% (lol) 12. Much PvZ 50.00% 13. SangHo PvT 38.24% Second Page: 14. Tempest PvT 44.44% 15. GuemChi PvP 41.67% 16. Movie PvP/PvT 38.46% (61% PvZ) 17. LuCifer PvP 40.00% 18. Stats PvT 46.15% 19. Pure PvT 44.83% 20. M18M (PvP/PvZ 0-2) 21. mingu PvP 0-2 22. GosI[flying] 1 televised game 23. Pusan PvT 49.02% PvZ as there clear worst: 5 PvP as there clear wost: 7 PvT as there clear worst: 8 Damn PvZ! | ||
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StarBrift
Sweden1761 Posts
To combat zergs flexibility the other races has allways had to rely on harassing their economy to mess up their build timings. But that hardly works on modern maps because maps like Destination, HBR and Outsider allows for tight wall ins and easily defendable chokes. Zerg doesn't have to spend extra money defending but rather just place their buildings in a certain way and they can defend. As seen in ZvP, if zerg can get their entire lair tech tree and still mass drone without being harassed they are extremely hard to kill. I believe these wallable areas also makes it harder for protoss to timing push zergs third which takes another threat off the table. | ||
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closed
Vatican City State491 Posts
Then Bisu came and they went orgasmic about "Bisu build". IMO it is very simple to upgrade it - just add reavers in shuttles into it. ![[image loading]](http://img364.imageshack.us/img364/4984/balanceat5.jpg) This discussion is so 2005. Also LOL @ guy who wrote that PvT is hard because toss has to adapt to the terran. | ||
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