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Camlito, you can't rely on statistics like that because they tell you nothing of the underlying causes.
I hope you're not trying to make a case with those stats, because alot of those players aren't very good either, meaning they will more likely loose to a better player regardless of race. Besides many of these guys haven't played that many games.
Violet, Shuttle and Sangho aren't very good players and loosing to better terrans of course says nothing about the racial imbalance but rather the players skill levels.
Regardless, if you compare PvZ and ZvP stats for the top 10 players of each race you will notice a huge different in percentage. Zerg players are able to dominate this matchup historically and still do, while protoss players with the exception of Bisu never could dominate PvZ, ever.
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I'm protoss player, but for me I think I play better zvp than pvz. I mean when playing with higher ranked players 
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Vatican City State491 Posts
Were there even 10 good protoss players to begin with?
What a pity that the ICCUP statistics only show the total number, not the results at each rank.
According to those stats:
http://www.iccup.com/starcraft/mapinfo/iccup_destination_1.1.html
PvZ is 48%
and
PvT is 54%
Wonder how does it look like on higher levels, dont remember terrans complaining.
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On September 25 2009 19:48 Foucault wrote:
Sure but how come like almost every pro protoss has PvZ as their worst matchup statistically?
On September 25 2009 20:18 Foucault wrote:
Camlito, you can't rely on statistics like that because they tell you nothing of the underlying causes.
I know what you are trying to say, but just wanted you to prove it in another way (which you did).
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On September 25 2009 20:09 StarBrift wrote:
The reason for zerg being so strong is absolutely map related.
On September 25 2009 20:09 StarBrift wrote:
Zerg has been and allways will be the most flexible race. They can tech switch freely and it's very hard to scout what they are doing unless you're familiar with their builds. Hence why players such as f91 can rack up wins vs "better" players.
Isn't this kinda contradictory?
How can the most flexible race be so dependant on maps? (which they aren't in 99% of the cases)
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On September 25 2009 20:20 Camlito wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2009 19:48 Foucault wrote:
Sure but how come like almost every pro protoss has PvZ as their worst matchup statistically? Show nested quote +On September 25 2009 20:18 Foucault wrote:
Camlito, you can't rely on statistics like that because they tell you nothing of the underlying causes. I know what you are trying to say, but just wanted you to prove it in another way (which you did).
Woot I passed the test? Thanks professor!
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On September 25 2009 20:24 Foucault wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2009 20:20 Camlito wrote:On September 25 2009 19:48 Foucault wrote:
Sure but how come like almost every pro protoss has PvZ as their worst matchup statistically? On September 25 2009 20:18 Foucault wrote:
Camlito, you can't rely on statistics like that because they tell you nothing of the underlying causes. I know what you are trying to say, but just wanted you to prove it in another way (which you did). Woot I passed the test? Thanks professor!
:D
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WHAT ABOUT protoss players stop bitching about imbalance and come up with something that messes up the mighty zerg economy? I mean protoss nowadays doesn't involve much multi-tasking... only things they do is walk around with dts trying to get some drone kills and that's all. What about sneaky 4 dt drops that are ridiculous devastating? Time to use new units? More use of the DA? Seriously if zergs come up with new builds every year why can't protoss do the same? They even have more possibilities of unit combos and all...
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On September 25 2009 20:27 WeSt wrote:
WHAT ABOUT protoss players stop bitching about imbalance and come up with something that messes up the mighty zerg economy? I mean protoss nowadays doesn't involve much multi-tasking... only things they do is walk around with dts trying to get some drone kills and that's all. What about sneaky 4 dt drops that are ridiculous devastating? Time to use new units? More use of the DA? Seriously if zergs come up with new builds every year why can't protoss do the same? They even have more possibilities of unit combos and all...
Early game, Zerg has all the map control, scouting and better all-in rush possibilities. Protoss has to play on the defensive, while Zerg can basically do whatever they like. Muta harass? Chances are the Protoss won't scout it. Lurkers? He might expect them. All-in hydra break? If you did your job denying scouting, it'll hit right before a Corsair starts to look for it. It's easier to be varied and creative when your opponent is in the dark than when he's breathing down your neck, as Zergs are on the Protosses.
That said, I do agree Protoss players should try new units / unit combos. Zergs have experimented with the Queen, why can't Protoss give the Dark Archon the same chance?
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I think that the overall tosses in the proscene are slumping, and there's also no REAL consistent toss nowadays. We have a lot of good zergs right now. The Bisu build has been so much used that we all know how to counter it with zerg, and I'm not even talking about 1gate&tech or 2gates opening..
I think protosses have to find a new way to beat zergs in zvp.. It's time to innovate and find some new kickass BO..
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United States44389 Posts
It's like 2006 all over again. I say make zealots do 1 hit instead of 2. See how ultras/lings like that shit. +2 zealots kill +2 lings in 2 hits, +3 zealots do 16 damage to +5 ultras rather than 10. Plus it doesn't effect PvT that much.
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On September 25 2009 20:20 closed wrote:
PvT is 54%
Wonder how does it look like on higher levels, dont remember terrans complaining.
Lol, terrans are the worst complainers of all times :D
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All matchups (not including mirror obviously) are slightly imbalanced, nothing new here.
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On September 25 2009 17:26 iamho wrote:
personally ive always felt z balance is a bit off, zvp is really easy esp. in hive tech, zvt is so fucking hard, zvz is just a screwed matchup
zvt is easy, zvp is fucking annoying and hard and a pain in the ass. zvz is fun.
Don't forget that beginners usually begin with protoss, which adds more loss to he protoss. Not talking about prolevel here.
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it's because there is no real counter for 5 hatch hydra at the moment.
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starcraft is balanced and you know it
quit whining about one build. its an opening, not a build. FE happens to be the best way to deal with a macro zerg in todays macro world. you just want tosses to 1 base cuz it's easy to overwhelm with early lings and sunks.
we'll use DA when you use queens, k?
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Calgary26004 Posts
On September 25 2009 17:24 lokiM wrote:
I'm guessing you got destroyed by some random zerg, and you are only comparing the pro scene
destination @ iccup zvp = 51% 16,000 games
Outsider @ iccup zvp = 50.89% over 3,000+ games
Neo Medusa @ iccup zvp = 52% with just under 3k games
seems pretty balanced to me..
That's cool, you are giving him shit for compaing random players to the pro scene. Oh wait then you're sourcing ICCup D games to prove map balance at the pro scene.
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this debate is so boring, so pointless and has been going on ever since the game came out. Every angle of this has been covered up and down.
Edit: Btw, if u ask a zerg gamer what he thinks, ur gonna get alot of different answers. Not all zergs like zvp. Some think its the hardest mu for zerg.
And also, I thought this issue was closed after Bisu raped his way to the top. Anyway i didnt hear alot of "pvz is so fucking imbalanced" in that period^^
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
New maps, new players. I'd say that after finding the right PvZ balance formula (easily accessible 3rd gas) the mapmakers wanted to try something new and here we are with a new drama. The other factors that contribute is that yes PvZ is imbalanced is a sense that protoss needs a very fine-tuned set of maps to be on par with the zerg without breaking the other MU's. There's no really good toss lately, true as well. Finally, zergs have been studying FE for ages now, they really know all the multitude of measures toss can apply and prepare accordingly with a huge economy in mind.
Keep in mind that the money GOM and OGN are making from their translations is directly related to the amount of drama on the screen. It makes sense to tune the maps in such a way that an underdog race suddenly becomes dominant.
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EPT
