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Kentor
United States5784 Posts
On September 25 2009 17:29 NiTenIchiRyu wrote: ITT toss fanboys. Close the thread please? It's not like it's going anywhere... uh even zerg players agree. it's worth discussing at least. | ||
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On September 25 2009 17:32 baubo wrote: I kind of wish progamer protosses would play something other than standard FE->Starport/Citadel->dts. It's predictability allows zergs to counter against it way too easily. Personally, it's really frustrating to watch a PvZ as a protoss fan, because basically the zerg is the one that can do all the cute rushes and tricks for basically the first 10 minutes of the game. While the protoss has this one build that only works if everything the zerg tries fails. What do you suggest that protoss should start doing? I agree with the op, zvp is broken. People should really stop complaining about storms. Even storms is not enough to make protoss even with the zerg. | ||
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Neivler
Norway911 Posts
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Phayze
Canada2029 Posts
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lokiM
United States3407 Posts
On September 25 2009 17:33 motbob wrote: I did edit it, but before you (or anyone else) posted. lol i read it right when you posted it, it doesn't magically auto refresh. It just took me awhile to look up all the stats and post it | ||
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JFKWT
Singapore1442 Posts
On September 25 2009 17:32 baubo wrote: I kind of wish progamer protosses would play something other than standard FE->Starport/Citadel->dts. It's predictability allows zergs to counter against it way too easily. Personally, it's really frustrating to watch a PvZ as a protoss fan, because basically the zerg is the one that can do all the cute rushes and tricks for basically the first 10 minutes of the game. While the protoss has this one build that only works if everything the zerg tries fails. sounds like PvT to me... | ||
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done
Germany70 Posts
In fact I strongly believe zvp at D to C levels are even favouring protoss over zerg, just because 5hatch hydra is so scouting dependent, while protoss can just asume whats coming and scout perfectly with corsairs... | ||
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okum
France5779 Posts
A much more accurate analysis is probably possible. In any case, we need more maps like Andromeda to balance things out. | ||
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Camlito
Australia4040 Posts
On September 25 2009 17:39 okum wrote: Maps are definitely a factor. Andromeda is almost 70% P favored since a few months back (a theory of collective slumping would have to account for this fact somehow). Colosseum II is slightly P favored. Outsider is fairly even. Looking at these maps, I think one deciding factor for the matchup balance is how easily protoss can secure a third base (which is really hard on HBR and Destination). A much more accurate analysis is probably possible. In any case, we need more maps like Andromeda to balance things out. dw, you ment Protoss have been owning on the map after it's z>p imbalance. | ||
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lokiM
United States3407 Posts
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NrG.ZaM
United States267 Posts
I saw bisu vs zero on outsider, where bisu was all over the map with a ton of reaver harass and lots of corsairs. He ultimately lost the game, but he was really losing reavers left and right. I think zero only won because bisu's resources dried up, despite bisu's lacking control at times. I guess what I'm trying to say is that it seems like the typical fast expand into mass gates has been "solved" in a way, and protoss players are going to havve to come up with something different. 3 hatch spire into 5 hatch hydra is a pretty safe and effective counter to what protoss has been doing lately, and that impacts the statistics in zerg's favor. | ||
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baubo
China3370 Posts
On September 25 2009 17:36 T.O.P. wrote: What do you suggest that protoss should start doing? Well, I certainly don't know any new nice build. But at the very least, I think protoss needs to incorporate some technical rushes. Various speedlot rushes, goon/reaver timing attacks, etc. And perhaps more sair/reaver if maps allow it. Just enough twists to keep the zerg honest. You mean TvP? I pretty much agree, at least before Fantasy. | ||
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Kaniol
Poland5551 Posts
On September 25 2009 17:36 T.O.P. wrote: What do you suggest that protoss should start doing? Stop playing WoW. Ver is right, almost all of protoss players are slumping. Bisu is not (however he isn't in top shape as well), and uhm well... Nobody else? Ok, Stork has shown nice performance at WCG but it was quite late to stop playing WoW. | ||
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kefkalives
Australia1272 Posts
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QibingZero
2611 Posts
1. Nal_ra retired 2. Zergs studied Bisu to death 3. Zergs overall control muta/scourge better than in the past 4. 4gate/2archon seems to have lost it's luster Now we have every protoss out there dying to hydra all-ins, or delaying psi storm way too long. They're also giving up air superiority on a whim, and cutting too many cannons. Maybe I'm wrong (as I haven't played protoss as my main race for quite some time), but PvZ isn't a matchup like ZvT where you have to survive on the bare minimum of defense in order to have the slight advantage in army size on the field. It's more like TvP where the terran moves to secure safe expansions with good defensive positions, and tries to win with a vastly superior army. Protoss has a difficult time doing anything to a maxed terran, just as zerg has trouble with a huge protoss ball of death. The problem in both situations for the 'underdog' of the matchup, is getting there. Hell, zergs were complaining right before this that the protoss late-game army is unstoppable, due to other recent results (which I will not spoil here). It's just smart play, though. There's nothing wrong with playing turtle-ish protoss when the zerg is being aggressive. Psi storm is there for a reason. | ||
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lazz
Australia3119 Posts
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lokiM
United States3407 Posts
1 gate > fe that is, but only works on maps with a expo in your main.. like colo2, outsider | ||
OneOther
United States10774 Posts
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OneOther
United States10774 Posts
On September 25 2009 18:15 lokiM wrote: people still do 1 gate builds 1 gate > fe that is, but only works on maps with a expo in your main.. like colo2, outsider i think he was talking about one gate tech builds, which isn't viable on rampless maps like colosseum. imo python is one of the good maps to one gate on. | ||
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Camlito
Australia4040 Posts
On September 25 2009 18:16 OneOther wrote: yeah, pvz has always been hard, even at my level (b/b+). against a zerg who knows how to cheese well, and also has solid macro style play, it only gets harder. any scouting attempt is denied, but i am afraid to spend money on extra cannons because i will get behind economically and have a difficult time winning. i have definitely noticed the latest Z>P trend in the progaming scene, too. four gate zealot/archon has pretty much been nullified with flawless sim city and such =/ it's funny how people cry about protoss imba bullshit when we are the ones dealing with perhaps the hardest matchup in starcraft right now well.. people worse than you aren't suffering AS much  . | ||
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