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okum
France5778 Posts
On September 25 2009 19:26 Foucault wrote: And yeah people, it's not about the maps My own theory is that big maps is good for zerg Maps don't matter, or some maps favor zerg... which way shall it be? | ||
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0neder
United States3733 Posts
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Re-Play-
Dominican Republic825 Posts
On September 25 2009 19:38 ret wrote: heh, this idea just seems like total crap to me when I know hard I get rolled when I 5 hat hydra / muta by very very simple zeal archon storm builds with a hardcore focus on macro. (foreigners can't do that luckily.) any zergs opening, sets them behind right now. Overpool -> 14 forge 14 nexus , 1 cannon, 2nd cannon if 8 lings instead of 6. -> corsair hits you super fast 9 pool -> low drone, altho p has to make 2 cannons imo your behind. 12 hatch -> risk of getting probe blocked and p going gate gas core before a cannon and his corsair hitting you super early. speedlings builds, although strong, often have to be allin because protoss wont respect zerg for going speedlings and just play a normal build, in which case you teched after speedling their tech will be far ahead of u. this is what happens on 2 players like desti and heartbreak all the time, and if the protoss is as good as you are then you are gonna have a rly hard time dealing with their superior build orders.. I can't remember a good pro pvz series which would lead me to believe zerg vs protoss was imbalanced for zerg... I wonder what you guys have been watching. I hope it's not the PMT stuff. Wait till Proleague or MSL/OSL and the protoss will do fine. ZvP is seriously imbalanced at the pro and semi-pro level and not to talk about foreigners level. RET talks about something that is true, but im 100% sure that you feel much more confident playing ZvP than White-ra, Mana, Fenix Playing PvZ, RET can you make a Reppack where you lose from a Toss? Maybe we can talk about harassing Z but its way to difficult to macro and micro if you don’t have an insane EAPM P has to do double the amount of work in this matchup compared to zerg, Zerg can build up and reinforce their army so fast when under attack while protoss hasn't. I think in same level of play Zerg will always win against toss, Let make en axample there a match PvZ, P being B+ and Zerg Being B- or B zerg can win ez and always will be the most flexible race, Zerg macro at that lvl is insane that good toss have troubles beating Z, theres a Replay of AHZZ where he almost beat a A- toss, do you know what that mean? That a well execute 5hatch Hydra can adapt to everything P does, there`s no BO from toss that allow them to be a thread to them maybe Corsair/reaver but EAPM is needed very high here. With that being said Zerg players are able to dominate this matchup historically and still do | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
Yeah, what? What I mean is that if your muta use vs Protoss isn't that good, then you really are forced not to use them, which makes you very predictable to play against. Zerg fundamentally relies on the ability to do midgame tech switches. Without this ability, Zergs midgame is terribly weak. Of course Hive tech is powerful, but you have to get there in a good position for that to matter any. However, if your muta use vs Protoss is pretty good, you can rely on them well. Back in 2006, players like July, Chojja, and especially Savior, the muta use was basically impossible for Protoss players to deal with. Bisu changed all that and for a while mutas were complete suicide. But now the modern muta/scourge use is very good against Protoss again. However, ZvP is not that badly imbalanced right now, I think. Zerg looked strong last season, but earlygame/midgame ZvP right now is played on the tip of a knife. One small slip and the Protoss will overrun you with superior macro. | ||
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ProoM
Lithuania1741 Posts
On topic: Zergs (most of them) always rely on their own knowledge and sense of the game, whereas protoss rely on build orders and timing pushes. Over the time, it became so predicable, that basically every zerg can understand what are you doing. It's also because a new era of zergs started, which is led by LJD. We will see how far it will go. Also, these are map stats from last few months, which can say nothing. You have to look at % or all ZvP played this year to make a statement like that (ZvP imbalanced in Pro level) ,also If you take the overal all times ZvP's it would be exactly 50% : 50%. Right now Protoss needs something new, they need to start playing more unpredictably with more determination in their gameplay. Also, saw stuff about how hard is to apply early pressure to walled zerg. Just use simple logic. Sunkens and buildings cost minerals. Minerals require time. Just pressure zerg earlier than u do normally (do it with ~3 zealots). He gets wall earlier than he should -> he has less minerals earlier-> less drones early on -> worst early eco-> terrible late game. | ||
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Camlito
Australia4040 Posts
On September 25 2009 22:38 LuisMl8 wrote: ZvP is seriously imbalanced at the pro and semi-pro level and not to talk about foreigners level. RET talks about something that is true, but im 100% sure that you feel much more confident playing ZvP than White-ra, Mana, Fenix Playing PvZ, RET can you make a Reppack where you lose from a Toss? Maybe we can talk about harassing Z but its way to difficult to macro and micro if you don’t have an insane EAPM P has to do double the amount of work in this matchup compared to zerg, Zerg can build up and reinforce their army so fast when under attack while protoss hasn't. I think in same level of play Zerg will always win against toss, Let make en axample there a match PvZ, P being B+ and Zerg Being B- or B zerg can win ez and always will be the most flexible race, Zerg macro at that lvl is insane that good toss have troubles beating Z, theres a Replay of AHZZ where he almost beat a A- toss, do you know what that mean? That a well execute 5hatch Hydra can adapt to everything P does, there`s no BO from toss that allow them to be a thread to them maybe Corsair/reaver but EAPM is needed very high here. With that being said Zerg players are able to dominate this matchup historically and still do What the fuck With your logic, i don't know why i am not beating b- protosses constantly... damnit! Just have to point out this user has a Probe icon, is complaining, and is a T1 fan. Guess the favourite player! | ||
Hot_Bid
Braavos36390 Posts
With vastly different level players and dynamic maps, why does everyone insist on going to the source (the game) instead of these external (and just as important) factors? Why must it be THE GAME that needs fixing instead of the maps? Nobody was saying P>Z when Bisu was playing well back in GomTV. But when ratios become 60% on certain maps, suddenly the core structure of the game is not right? Ultimately any statistical "imbalance" in any matchups can be solved easily by tweaking the maps. If Z>>P right now on the current set of maps, the leagues will adjust. Then you'll see Ps "play better" and everyone will shut up. In fact, had Bisu beaten Iris in that Game 5 and then beaten Calm (which was very close to happening), I don't think this thread even gets made. Is that what these OMFG IMBA discussions are hinging on now? 3-4 Protoss wins in the MSL semis/finals? | ||
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JMave
Singapore1806 Posts
I feel that there is slight imbalance of some sort but I think the key lies in harass and being able to mess up the Z's timing and tech switches. | ||
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wiesel
Germany727 Posts
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
Along with innovation from protoss players. Imo they really don't seem to like trying new things. Dark Archons have great potential as support units against both mutas and defilers. Less HT snipes and only half the swarms should really be enough to make it worth the money. Hallucinations can make harrass much more effective (less shuttles lost to scourges), and possibly have their uses in battle too. Protoss should also try to develop some strong all-ins to put more pressure on the zerg through the metagame. I rarely see anything that is even close to an all-in from toss. Oh and is it really useful to get 3 armor ups and only 2 shields ups when a pvz goes into lategame? Mass archons, many corsairs, lots of cannons, a bunch of shuttles AND defilers with plague. All of this screams "shield upgrades". Well, I can't really judge how effective these things would be, but I seriously doubt that they have been tested sufficiently. | ||
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Avidkeystamper
United States8556 Posts
Zergs had to deal with mech for the longest time, just find another strategy. | ||
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Hayarok
Israel95 Posts
its goes like that T>Z , T=P , Z>P. | ||
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Tien
Russian Federation4447 Posts
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
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Xeln4g4
Italy1209 Posts
BTW i thought this kind of post were forbidden ... | ||
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cyronc
218 Posts
On September 25 2009 23:05 wiesel wrote: You guys play starcraft not warcraft3 don't forget it and grow some balls. "omg i hope the next patch nerfs [x] or at least gives [y] a buff, since even the [y] pros are retiring now cuz they lack in success, and what about [z]? nobody at blizzard gives any more love to [z] any more!!!" right? ;D | ||
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nebffa
Australia776 Posts
So what can be done!?!?!? I'm a noob so I don't know, but what about DA maelstrom to stop mutalisks? What about faster reavers to deal with hydralisks? Zergs pick fights out in the open which makes it way easier to storm dodge... so I thought about disruption web... it means the Zerg can't pick where to fight as much. All these options require a lot of gas.... but honestly, almost every PvZ it's usual to see 1-2 templars being sniped early game without casting a storm.... thats 150-300 redundant gas that COULD HAVE gone towards these other parts of the tech tree But yeah... I'm not a very good player.... I just want to see some zergs DIE. even TERRANS who traditionally rape zergs have been getting smacked about. GODDAMN ZERGS | ||
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Camlito
Australia4040 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On September 25 2009 21:48 Kwark wrote: It's like 2006 all over again. This. Rebirth of the ULTRA LING IMBA threads? | ||
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