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NrG.Bamboo
United States2756 Posts
On September 26 2009 00:12 TheYango wrote: This. Rebirth of the ULTRA LING IMBA threads? Hopefully the rebirth of something so kids shut the fuck up about balance. EDIT: Look at pre-FE PvZ, that shit was imbalanced. But then again (I was a Protoss player at the time), it was still funner to play than FE PvZ, lol. | ||
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Sadist
United States7294 Posts
On September 25 2009 23:04 JMave wrote: I think that right now, P plays on defensive if he does FE. This then allows the zerg to do whatever he wants before P's tech kicks in. Hence, this makes P play a sort of catch up because he needs to gain back map control. I feel that there is slight imbalance of some sort but I think the key lies in harass and being able to mess up the Z's timing and tech switches. welcome to TvP | ||
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FoBuLouS
United States570 Posts
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Kaniol
Poland5551 Posts
So true. In this game you either have mobility or firepower, never both. On September 25 2009 23:29 Hayarok wrote: i agree Zerg has advantage in ZvP. its goes like that T>Z , T=P , Z>P. WHAAAT?! You know that this "T=P" line will begin flamewar, don't you?  And let's look at (quite recent) all-stars event: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/leagues/247_09_All-Star_Race_Battle T>Z Z>P P>T Which victory was most crushing? Yep, P 4 - 1 T. This whole thread however is becoming more and more pointless. Almost every player states what is beneficial for his excuses of losing to X race. Srsly, if ur PvZ is bad then it doesn't mean that PvZ is imba - probably your PvT and PvP is better, that's it. For me as a Terran player it is harder to play ZvP than PvZ, I can only do neo-sauron ZvP and i suck at playing lurkers and scourging obses. But the ultimate truth is - the game itself is balanced, maps aren't. Ofc it isn't PERFECTLY balanced, but chances to win don't range more than few% from 50% on balanced maps. Plus 3 of the most prestigious and knowledgeable foreigners already took their part in this discussion - Ver, Hot_Bid, Ret (sorry if I missed somebody's post). You just CAN'T disagree with what they say about SC. It's as if you tried to convince Blizzard that Kerrigan is male :| | ||
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Sadist
United States7294 Posts
On September 26 2009 00:28 Kaniol wrote: So true. In this game you either have mobility or firepower, never both. WHAAAT?! You know that this "T=P" line will begin flamewar, don't you? And let's look at (quite recent) all-stars event: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/leagues/247_09_All-Star_Race_Battle T>Z Z>P P>T Which victory was most crushing? Yep, P 4 - 1 T. This whole thread however is becoming more and more pointless. Almost every player states what is beneficial for his excuses of losing to X race. Srsly, if ur PvZ is bad then it doesn't mean that PvZ is imba - probably your PvT and PvP is better, that's it. For me as a Terran player it is harder to play ZvP than PvZ, I can only do neo-sauron ZvP and i suck at playing lurkers and scourging obses. But the ultimate truth is - the game itself is balanced, maps aren't. Ofc it isn't PERFECTLY balanced, but chances to win don't range more than few% from 50% on balanced maps. Plus 3 of the most prestigious and knowledgeable foreigners already took their part in this discussion - Ver, Hot_Bid, Ret (sorry if I missed somebody's post). You just CAN'T disagree with what they say about SC. It's as if you tried to convince Blizzard that Kerrigan is male :| Unless you have ultras | ||
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inertinept
Bangladesh1195 Posts
On September 25 2009 22:58 Hot_Bid wrote: This just sounds like whining, with a lot of over-generalizations and useless theorycrafting. Like the guy that says its imbalanced because of Protoss mineral gas ratio or lack of detection early game (like 1% of games end with the P dying to some sort of lurker attack). With vastly different level players and dynamic maps, why does everyone insist on going to the source (the game) instead of these external (and just as important) factors? Why must it be THE GAME that needs fixing instead of the maps? Nobody was saying P>Z when Bisu was playing well back in GomTV. But when ratios become 60% on certain maps, suddenly the core structure of the game is not right? Ultimately any statistical "imbalance" in any matchups can be solved easily by tweaking the maps. If Z>>P right now on the current set of maps, the leagues will adjust. Then you'll see Ps "play better" and everyone will shut up. In fact, had Bisu beaten Iris in that Game 5 and then beaten Calm (which was very close to happening), I don't think this thread even gets made. Is that what these OMFG IMBA discussions are hinging on now? 3-4 Protoss wins in the MSL semis/finals? I don't understand why people bother pointing something out that is true of themselves. You are whining about protoss whining, pretty much the same thing. Saying that maps are the sole problem is also theorycrafting. (you have a theory of why the problem occurs but its not 100%true) This being said, I do not think ZvP/PvZ is imbalanced. Just need to use your brain a lot more then the zerg. Examples are: letting an overlord see your stargate, the cancelling it in favor of a robotics and going mass goon/reaver or something like that. Its just a matchup of mindgames and making the opponent play YOUR game. The only real time and place I can see it might be a bit imbalanced is once zerg gets defiler/ultralisk, but thats your fault for letting them make such an investment and letting it go unpunished. You dont just all of a sudden obtain 20 3/5 ultralisks. 3 things I think protoss needs to do more are 1. take risks 2. Don't let it turn into a macro battle (aka do not let zerg get the "magic" 4th gas 3. play according to the map. Hell, different maps need different builds if this wasn't obvious. You can't stargate/dt then 1a2a3a your way to victory everytime. | ||
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Zozma
United States1626 Posts
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JiYan
United States3668 Posts
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Successful
25 Posts
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KwarK
United States43332 Posts
Except the P can't do anything but FE PvZ these days whereas the T in TvP can still throw out the occasional 2 fac or 1 fac port to keep the P on his toes. PvZ is like TvP where the opponent knows you're doing siege expand so can just go crazy with his exps and macro. | ||
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Pioneer
994 Posts
On September 25 2009 22:58 Hot_Bid wrote: This just sounds like whining, with a lot of over-generalizations and useless theorycrafting. Like the guy that says its imbalanced because of Protoss mineral gas ratio or lack of detection early game (like 1% of games end with the P dying to some sort of lurker attack). With vastly different level players and dynamic maps, why does everyone insist on going to the source (the game) instead of these external (and just as important) factors? Why must it be THE GAME that needs fixing instead of the maps? Nobody was saying P>Z when Bisu was playing well back in GomTV. But when ratios become 60% on certain maps, suddenly the core structure of the game is not right? Ultimately any statistical "imbalance" in any matchups can be solved easily by tweaking the maps. If Z>>P right now on the current set of maps, the leagues will adjust. Then you'll see Ps "play better" and everyone will shut up. In fact, had Bisu beaten Iris in that Game 5 and then beaten Calm (which was very close to happening), I don't think this thread even gets made. Is that what these OMFG IMBA discussions are hinging on now? 3-4 Protoss wins in the MSL semis/finals? iirc shortly after Bisu's 3-0 savior there was a period where Zergs were struggling/couldn't cope with the sair/dt opening and there was a lot of crying. zergs having a slight edge now is not the same as when Bisu debuted the new style but your post comes across like zergs don't whine at all. in reality zergs whine just as much as terrans and protoss | ||
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ProoM
Lithuania1741 Posts
On September 25 2009 22:38 LuisMl8 wrote: ZvP is seriously imbalanced at the pro and semi-pro level and not to talk about foreigners level. RET talks about something that is true, but im 100% sure that you feel much more confident playing ZvP than White-ra, Mana, Fenix Playing PvZ, RET can you make a Reppack where you lose from a Toss? Maybe we can talk about harassing Z but its way to difficult to macro and micro if you don’t have an insane EAPM P has to do double the amount of work in this matchup compared to zerg, Zerg can build up and reinforce their army so fast when under attack while protoss hasn't. I think in same level of play Zerg will always win against toss, Let make en axample there a match PvZ, P being B+ and Zerg Being B- or B zerg can win ez and always will be the most flexible race, Zerg macro at that lvl is insane that good toss have troubles beating Z, theres a Replay of AHZZ where he almost beat a A- toss, do you know what that mean? That a well execute 5hatch Hydra can adapt to everything P does, there`s no BO from toss that allow them to be a thread to them maybe Corsair/reaver but EAPM is needed very high here. With that being said Zerg players are able to dominate this matchup historically and still do LOL. harrasing takes 5 clicks, and it may kill over 20 drones. hard eh? (pick temple, move shuttle, drop ht, use storm). Lets talk about ht sniping, storm dodging, flanking and etc that zerg has to do every game? and he also has to defend from 1 high templar drop which can kill like 50 drones, or reaver, or dt. Also Z's gets no alarm when their drones gets attack, so they have to check every base every few secods... P's role is much much much more easier in PvZ. If all you can do is 4z5z6z4z5z6z4z5z6z4z5z6z 1a2a3a and then tell it doesnt work, then try learning something new. what about pro-scene, as somewho already told, its not the race, its the players. Z players improved alot in ZvP, while P's are in the same place like they were a year ago, doing the exactly same builds... | ||
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selboN
United States2523 Posts
On September 26 2009 00:57 ProoM wrote: LOL. harrasing takes 5 clicks, and it may kill over 20 drones. hard eh? (pick temple, move shuttle, drop ht, use storm). Lets talk about ht sniping, storm dodging, flanking and etc that zerg has to do every game? and he also has to defend from 1 high templar drop which can kill like 50 drones, or reaver, or dt. Also Z's gets no alarm when their drones gets attack, so they have to check every base every few secods... P's role is much much much more easier in PvZ. If all you can do is 4z5z6z4z5z6z4z5z6z4z5z6z 1a2a3a and then tell it doesnt work, then try learning something new. what about pro-scene, as somewho already told, its not the race, its the players. Z players improved alot in ZvP, while P's are in the same place like they were a year ago, doing the exactly same builds... Stop defending your easy match-up, scum. | ||
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Cloud
Sexico5880 Posts
On September 25 2009 17:12 motbob wrote: ZvP is seriously imbalanced at the pro and semi-pro level. It's remarkable how that fact has sort of snuck up on us over the past few months, but it's absolutely true. Since about March, it seems like zergs have reached a point in the metagame where they always have the build order advantage. Whether it's because of Jaedong leading the way for zergs everywhere, or the inability for protosses to come up with any innovation in their play since the zealot/archon push that was popular 8 months ago, Protosses are in a bad place right now when they play zerg. And it's not the maps. Destination used to be balanced ZvP (56-54 before Mar 1 2009). Now it is not (61-44 after). Let's talk numbers. In the upcoming OSL prelims, the maps used are Destination, Heartbreak Ridge, and Return of the King. The combined stats for those three maps after early March, including "non-official" games like prelim games, is 60% ZvP. Outsider is 41-27 (60.3%). Neo Medusa is 34-25 (57.6%). Why is this matchup suddenly so drastically imbalanced? I dont think you can put such a big statement as 'ZvP is imbalanced' and then asking 'WHY?' without looking like a fool. | ||
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wiesel
Germany727 Posts
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okum
France5778 Posts
On September 26 2009 01:04 wiesel wrote: why wasn't this thread already closed? I think it's going nowhere from here... There have been *some* insightful posts in between the subjective whining. | ||
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uglymoose89
United States671 Posts
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ProoM
Lithuania1741 Posts
I've recently tried PvZ instead of ZvZ (my main race is Z), and the guy I played against was D+ main race Z, while it was like 3rd time I play PvZ in my life. The game was soooo soooo easy even I was surprised, I thought it's even a little hard to play with a toss (Always defended toss that they have to think about strategy etc.). All I did, was pushed out with 3 first zealots, doing some eco damage (4 drones I think), but that made Z to be more concerned about the possible threat, so he started making units ealier. I expoed with goon/ht army outside of my base and turtled until I got 3/3 upgrades and pushed out. just 1a2a3a4a5a gg. Its that easy. Always thought people are over reacting how easy is it to play with protoss at low levels, but I guess they arent... (it wasnt just no agression from Z game, he opened with 9 pool, and then contained me with lurks/scourges hydras for some time, until I walked out with goons and ht). I guess protoss sat on their puffy chair for too long, its time for them to start actually doing something to win, not just 1a2a3a4a5a. | ||
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inertinept
Bangladesh1195 Posts
On September 26 2009 01:13 ProoM wrote: I've recently tried PvZ instead of ZvZ (my main race is Z), and the guy I played against was D+ main race Z, while it was like 3rd time I play PvZ in my life. The game was soooo soooo easy even I was surprised, I thought it's even a little hard to play with a toss (Always defended toss that they have to think about strategy etc.). All I did, was pushed out with 3 first zealots, doing some eco damage (4 drones I think), but that made Z to be more concerned about the possible threat, so he started making units ealier. I expoed with goon/ht army outside of my base and turtled until I got 3/3 upgrades and pushed out. just 1a2a3a4a5a gg. Its that easy. Always thought people are over reacting how easy is it to play with protoss at low levels, but I guess they arent... (it wasnt just no agression from Z game, he opened with 9 pool, and then contained me with lurks/scourges hydras for some time, until I walked out with goons and ht). I guess protoss sat on their puffy chair for too long, its time for them to start actually doing something to win, not just 1a2a3a4a5a. hey guess what einstein? this thread is about pro level. not your shitty D rank. just thought i'd let you know. | ||
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50bani
Romania480 Posts
On September 25 2009 19:38 ret wrote: heh, this idea just seems like total crap to me when I know hard I get rolled when I 5 hat hydra / muta by very very simple zeal archon storm builds with a hardcore focus on macro. (foreigners can't do that luckily.) any zergs opening, sets them behind right now. Overpool -> 14 forge 14 nexus , 1 cannon, 2nd cannon if 8 lings instead of 6. -> corsair hits you super fast 9 pool -> low drone, altho p has to make 2 cannons imo your behind. 12 hatch -> risk of getting probe blocked and p going gate gas core before a cannon and his corsair hitting you super early. speedlings builds, although strong, often have to be allin because protoss wont respect zerg for going speedlings and just play a normal build, in which case you teched after speedling their tech will be far ahead of u. this is what happens on 2 players like desti and heartbreak all the time, and if the protoss is as good as you are then you are gonna have a rly hard time dealing with their superior build orders.. I can't remember a good pro pvz series which would lead me to believe zerg vs protoss was imbalanced for zerg... I wonder what you guys have been watching. I hope it's not the PMT stuff. Wait till Proleague or MSL/OSL and the protoss will do fine. I remember a thread in the past where someone did a recap of the golden age of Protoss and it turned out that the 6 dragons(BeSt included) had 70% winrate between them. The other part of that was that nobody else came close to them, in fact all other P sucked hard. We might have been dealing with some kind of syncronized peak/slump during that time. In recent months the dragons have not achieved great winrates against Z and at lower levels it has been pretty bad. Proleague finished 54% Z Minor League finished 66% for Z and the new maps are not even funny. In the offline test, Z had about 75% winrate on them. They have some kind of advantage over them that we do not entirely comprehend. Could it be that the 1a2a3anoobrace requires skill? Brains? APM? Impossible. Obviously impossible. + Show Spoiler + how come this is the weakest race in progaming then? Let me link this http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=96051 article about ZvP for no particular reason... Interesting enough writer said the matchup is balanced despite the numbers(well he does not include any stats so he kinda lied by ommition) Protoss need superior build orders to survive! Just how Terran has an edge on Zerg, Zerg has an edge on Protoss. And it is not clear why, if it were clear, Blizzard would have patched the game, but it seems "adequate" as is, patches might in fact disturb more so nothing has happened for years. I play none of the races involved here, so I have little weight to add behind my words, but the problem is most definitely your play not the matchup. You are a very good player, but there is something at a higher level going on here. | ||
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