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On September 25 2009 19:38 ret wrote:
heh, this idea just seems like total crap to me when I know hard I get rolled when I 5 hat hydra / muta by very very simple zeal archon storm builds with a hardcore focus on macro. (foreigners can't do that luckily.)
any zergs opening, sets them behind right now.
Overpool -> 14 forge 14 nexus , 1 cannon, 2nd cannon if 8 lings instead of 6. -> corsair hits you super fast
9 pool -> low drone, altho p has to make 2 cannons imo your behind.
12 hatch -> risk of getting probe blocked and p going gate gas core before a cannon and his corsair hitting you super early.
speedlings builds, although strong, often have to be allin because protoss wont respect zerg for going speedlings and just play a normal build, in which case you teched after speedling their tech will be far ahead of u.
this is what happens on 2 players like desti and heartbreak all the time, and if the protoss is as good as you are then you are gonna have a rly hard time dealing with their superior build orders..
I can't remember a good pro pvz series which would lead me to believe zerg vs protoss was imbalanced for zerg... I wonder what you guys have been watching. I hope it's not the PMT stuff.
Wait till Proleague or MSL/OSL and the protoss will do fine.
Yes! instructional Replay for us P's please!
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omg not thread like this again =.=#
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On September 26 2009 02:49 emucxg wrote:
omg not thread like this again =.=#
Yeah let's just conclude that ZvP is slightly imbalanced.
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On September 26 2009 01:38 Foucault wrote:
No you can't tweak maps to turn racial imbalances in Starcraft. Also there is something ethically wrong with balancing gameplay this way. I do think the maps are ZvP now because alot of them are big, which makes zerg macro hardcore. Skip forward to ultras + dark swarm after 20 minutes. I've seen that in a couple of the latest games now, kinda boring.
Yes you can tweak maps so that they favor one race over the other.
Usually through width and number of paths/areas, as well as expansion placement and type (minonly or min+gas). But there are many other things that can be done, which sometimes make the maps "weird" or "non-standard". Also remember the huge balance shifts an island map causes.
Btw, here is an example of an immensly imbalanced p > t, p > z map:
It's a 2 player island map, with the two main mineral lines close to each other, and a cliff overlooking both minlines. The cliff is only buildable with 2x2 buildings, especially pylons and cannons, the cannons reach the main minerals.
Now toss only needs to get up on the cliff but the enemy must not be able to. This can be done with a setup similar to troy assimilators. Protoss can build an assimilator on a geysir and open up a path for probes, while refineries/extractors are too large. Since the ground is mostly unbuildable you can't even land a rax. And because a can rush is much faster than siege tanks or any kind of air/drop, the toss will always win.
Oh yeah you could try glitching workers through the geysirs, but that is hard to do, can partially be prevented, and toss can send as many probes as needed until the first cans are up.
So while this map would obviously be completely ridiculous, it DOES demonstrate that you can mess with SC's balance through maps as much as you want.
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On September 26 2009 02:50 Foucault wrote:Yeah let's just conclude that ZvP is slightly imbalanced.
I saw same thread 5 years ago =.=
when protoss got pwned by terran and zerg in proleagues lol
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Really annoys me that this imbalance doesn't show in C-levels on iccup. I'm getting so brutally steamrolled by protosses at the moment...
Guess I have to go pro o.o
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Because there is no imbalance only better players.
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On September 26 2009 02:51 spinesheath wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2009 01:38 Foucault wrote:
No you can't tweak maps to turn racial imbalances in Starcraft. Also there is something ethically wrong with balancing gameplay this way. I do think the maps are ZvP now because alot of them are big, which makes zerg macro hardcore. Skip forward to ultras + dark swarm after 20 minutes. I've seen that in a couple of the latest games now, kinda boring. Yes you can tweak maps so that they favor one race over the other. Usually through width and number of paths/areas, as well as expansion placement and type (minonly or min+gas). But there are many other things that can be done, which sometimes make the maps "weird" or "non-standard". Also remember the huge balance shifts an island map causes. Btw, here is an example of an immensly imbalanced p > t, p > z map: It's a 2 player island map, with the two main mineral lines close to each other, and a cliff overlooking both minlines. The cliff is only buildable with 2x2 buildings, especially pylons and cannons, the cannons reach the main minerals. Now toss only needs to get up on the cliff but the enemy must not be able to. This can be done with a setup similar to troy assimilators. Protoss can build an assimilator on a geysir and open up a path for probes, while refineries/extractors are too large. Since the ground is mostly unbuildable you can't even land a rax. And because a can rush is much faster than siege tanks or any kind of air/drop, the toss will always win. Oh yeah you could try glitching workers through the geysirs, but that is hard to do, can partially be prevented, and toss can send as many probes as needed until the first cans are up. So while this map would obviously be completely ridiculous, it DOES demonstrate that you can mess with SC's balance through maps as much as you want.
Yeah I know you can tweak maps to balance the game but the underlying racial imbalance is still there. That's why I mentioned that I think it's an unethical way to go about it.
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On September 26 2009 03:05 wiesel wrote:
Because there is no imbalance only better players.
Yeah of course, Starcraft is 100% balanced. God made this game, it's weird but true.
Your argument is emotional but not rational, you believe Starcraft to be 100% balanced because you like the thought of it. Of course Starcraft isn't perfectly balanced, no computer game can be basically.
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This was more of an answer to magh's post.
And of course it can be 100% balanced just have 1 race... easy lol
God made this game, it's weird but true.
Amen!
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u gotta skate8152 Posts
Oh wow ZvP imba thread, are we back in 2006? :p
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United States47024 Posts
On September 26 2009 01:38 Foucault wrote:
People insist it's the game because it would be ludacris to assume that the game somehow is perfect in all aspects.
lol
Sorry, had to point it out.
On September 26 2009 01:38 Foucault wrote:
No you can't tweak maps to turn racial imbalances in Starcraft. Also there is something ethically wrong with balancing gameplay this way.
"Ethically" is probably the wrong word to use there, though I can see why someone would be against using maps as a balancing tool. The problem is that there comes a point at which the balance isn't perfect, but so close that most tweaks would be less balanced than what you start with (Starcraft's not perfectly balanced, but it's pretty damn close-a minute change like shifting a couple mineral patches out on the original Blue Storm turned it from heavily zerg-favored to almost even). Tweaking Zealot base damage or something minute could have large effects throughout the rest of the game that we might not see. It's important to remember that not only must such changes preserve inter-racial balance, but they must preserve unit viability across matchups (e.g. improved Zealots could have a huge effect on which units are important in ZvP, possibly to the point of making some units not useful anymore).
Maps are a useful tool for balance for a couple reasons.
1) They have a short development cycle - a patch takes a long time to code, debug, release, and wait for feedback. Maps by comparison can be more quickly released and tested.
2) Its easier to make fine changes - single numerical changes to actual units and buildings are huge. Shifting the positions of things around on a map allows for greater fine-tuning with regards to balance.
3) It's easy to control their effect on the scene - a new patch applies to every game, all the time. A bad patch could have catastrophic effects on the game, and would take a long time to deal with. Maps, by comparison, especially bad ones, enter and leave quickly. Proleague re-evaluates maps after every round (and in-rounds if its actually bad enough). Leagues switch maps every season, and Bo5s are such that an imbalanced map would only be relevant a fraction of the time. And below the pro level, people just wouldn't play the imba maps.
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I am going to agree with one of the first posts in saying that it's the players. There are a TON of up and coming zerg players with rather insane mechanics when compared to Protoss. Is this due to "ZvP imbalance"? I think not. Specifically, if you look at some of the top tier zergs, their ZvP is normally around their ZvT win percentage. In my mind, there are so few major Potoss forces that stand out when compared to Zerg.
I'm a zerg/terran player, and I feel the fundamental (outside of pro-level gaming)``problem" with the ZvP matchup, is that zerg have many, many options in which to take the game. Sadly, most are defined as "cheese" and "all-ins". Whereas protoss have fewer options, such as proxy gating, and forge/cannon blocking (as seen on heartbreak). Obviously, their options are currently more limited in this metagame.
Protoss (at least on iccup) are NOT innovative, and 8/10 times you can expect some sort of bisu build opening. When you know its coming, its much easier to prepare for it and not be thrown offguard (ala ling/hydra all-in).
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United States10774 Posts
Protoss (at least on iccup) are NOT innovative, and 8/10 times you can expect some sort of bisu build opening. When you know its coming, its much easier to prepare for it and not be thrown offguard (ala ling/hydra all-in).
that's one of the reasons why pvz has gotten hard. zerg has so many options, whereas protoss is limited. innovative? "innovative" builds don't usually work.
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Calgary25981 Posts
Oh god, now we're calling 1 sair into 2 archon / 1 sair into ht the bisu build?????
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On September 26 2009 03:10 wiesel wrote:This was more of an answer to magh's post. And of course it can be 100% balanced just have 1 race... easy lol Amen!
Irony, my good sir.
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On September 26 2009 03:27 GG.Win wrote:
I am going to agree with one of the first posts in saying that it's the players. There are a TON of up and coming zerg players with rather insane mechanics when compared to Protoss. Is this due to "ZvP imbalance"? I think not. Specifically, if you look at some of the top tier zergs, their ZvP is normally around their ZvT win percentage. In my mind, there are so few major Potoss forces that stand out when compared to Zerg.
I'm a zerg/terran player, and I feel the fundamental (outside of pro-level gaming)``problem" with the ZvP matchup, is that zerg have many, many options in which to take the game. Sadly, most are defined as "cheese" and "all-ins". Whereas protoss have fewer options, such as proxy gating, and forge/cannon blocking (as seen on heartbreak). Obviously, their options are currently more limited in this metagame.
Protoss (at least on iccup) are NOT innovative, and 8/10 times you can expect some sort of bisu build opening. When you know its coming, its much easier to prepare for it and not be thrown offguard (ala ling/hydra all-in).
eh with this comment your supporting the zvp is imbalanced side dude
why do you think there is a lot of up and coming zergs and no protoss? because its much harder to make it big with protoss. might want to adjust this part of your argument..
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I really think ZvP is a balanced matchup. Yes, Zergs have more all-in options but the matchup seems equalizing in every way.
Maybe I'm letting my T bias see this in a different light, but any matchup that doesn't involve T seems balanced to me, T > Z, T > P. Where was that thread with all the statistics of wins verses losses for all broadcasted pro games ever played? If anyone can dig out that thread, I think historically TvZ has had a more unequal ratio than ZvP
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On September 26 2009 03:32 Chill wrote:
Oh god, now we're calling 1 sair into 2 archon / 1 sair into ht the bisu build?????
Ever since youtube, if a protoss makes a pylon at his choke, it's Bisu build.
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stop whining you fucking bitches
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EPT
