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ZvP is imbalanced - Page 8

Forum Index > BW General
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nosliw
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States2716 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-09-25 17:23:59
September 25 2009 17:23 GMT
#141
On September 25 2009 19:38 ret wrote:
heh, this idea just seems like total crap to me when I know hard I get rolled when I 5 hat hydra / muta by very very simple zeal archon storm builds with a hardcore focus on macro. (foreigners can't do that luckily.)

any zergs opening, sets them behind right now.
Overpool -> 14 forge 14 nexus , 1 cannon, 2nd cannon if 8 lings instead of 6. -> corsair hits you super fast
9 pool -> low drone, altho p has to make 2 cannons imo your behind.
12 hatch -> risk of getting probe blocked and p going gate gas core before a cannon and his corsair hitting you super early.

speedlings builds, although strong, often have to be allin because protoss wont respect zerg for going speedlings and just play a normal build, in which case you teched after speedling their tech will be far ahead of u.

this is what happens on 2 players like desti and heartbreak all the time, and if the protoss is as good as you are then you are gonna have a rly hard time dealing with their superior build orders..

I can't remember a good pro pvz series which would lead me to believe zerg vs protoss was imbalanced for zerg... I wonder what you guys have been watching. I hope it's not the PMT stuff.

Wait till Proleague or MSL/OSL and the protoss will do fine.


Yes! instructional Replay for us P's please!
emucxg
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
Finland4559 Posts
September 25 2009 17:49 GMT
#142
omg not thread like this again =.=#
Foucault
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Sweden2826 Posts
September 25 2009 17:50 GMT
#143
On September 26 2009 02:49 emucxg wrote:
omg not thread like this again =.=#


Yeah let's just conclude that ZvP is slightly imbalanced.
I know that deep inside of you there's a humongous set of testicles just waiting to pop out. Let 'em pop bro. //////////////////// AKA JensOfSweden // Lee Yoon Yeol forever.
spinesheath
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Germany8679 Posts
September 25 2009 17:51 GMT
#144
On September 26 2009 01:38 Foucault wrote:
No you can't tweak maps to turn racial imbalances in Starcraft. Also there is something ethically wrong with balancing gameplay this way. I do think the maps are ZvP now because alot of them are big, which makes zerg macro hardcore. Skip forward to ultras + dark swarm after 20 minutes. I've seen that in a couple of the latest games now, kinda boring.


Yes you can tweak maps so that they favor one race over the other.
Usually through width and number of paths/areas, as well as expansion placement and type (minonly or min+gas). But there are many other things that can be done, which sometimes make the maps "weird" or "non-standard". Also remember the huge balance shifts an island map causes.

Btw, here is an example of an immensly imbalanced p > t, p > z map:
It's a 2 player island map, with the two main mineral lines close to each other, and a cliff overlooking both minlines. The cliff is only buildable with 2x2 buildings, especially pylons and cannons, the cannons reach the main minerals.
Now toss only needs to get up on the cliff but the enemy must not be able to. This can be done with a setup similar to troy assimilators. Protoss can build an assimilator on a geysir and open up a path for probes, while refineries/extractors are too large. Since the ground is mostly unbuildable you can't even land a rax. And because a can rush is much faster than siege tanks or any kind of air/drop, the toss will always win.
Oh yeah you could try glitching workers through the geysirs, but that is hard to do, can partially be prevented, and toss can send as many probes as needed until the first cans are up.

So while this map would obviously be completely ridiculous, it DOES demonstrate that you can mess with SC's balance through maps as much as you want.
If you have a good reason to disagree with the above, please tell me. Thank you.
emucxg
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
Finland4559 Posts
September 25 2009 17:52 GMT
#145
On September 26 2009 02:50 Foucault wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 26 2009 02:49 emucxg wrote:
omg not thread like this again =.=#


Yeah let's just conclude that ZvP is slightly imbalanced.

I saw same thread 5 years ago =.=
when protoss got pwned by terran and zerg in proleagues lol
magh
Profile Joined August 2008
Sweden95 Posts
September 25 2009 18:00 GMT
#146
Really annoys me that this imbalance doesn't show in C-levels on iccup. I'm getting so brutally steamrolled by protosses at the moment...

Guess I have to go pro o.o
And the front door is open.. AGAIN!!
wiesel
Profile Joined September 2008
Germany727 Posts
September 25 2009 18:05 GMT
#147
Because there is no imbalance only better players.
Foucault
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Sweden2826 Posts
September 25 2009 18:06 GMT
#148
On September 26 2009 02:51 spinesheath wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 26 2009 01:38 Foucault wrote:
No you can't tweak maps to turn racial imbalances in Starcraft. Also there is something ethically wrong with balancing gameplay this way. I do think the maps are ZvP now because alot of them are big, which makes zerg macro hardcore. Skip forward to ultras + dark swarm after 20 minutes. I've seen that in a couple of the latest games now, kinda boring.


Yes you can tweak maps so that they favor one race over the other.
Usually through width and number of paths/areas, as well as expansion placement and type (minonly or min+gas). But there are many other things that can be done, which sometimes make the maps "weird" or "non-standard". Also remember the huge balance shifts an island map causes.

Btw, here is an example of an immensly imbalanced p > t, p > z map:
It's a 2 player island map, with the two main mineral lines close to each other, and a cliff overlooking both minlines. The cliff is only buildable with 2x2 buildings, especially pylons and cannons, the cannons reach the main minerals.
Now toss only needs to get up on the cliff but the enemy must not be able to. This can be done with a setup similar to troy assimilators. Protoss can build an assimilator on a geysir and open up a path for probes, while refineries/extractors are too large. Since the ground is mostly unbuildable you can't even land a rax. And because a can rush is much faster than siege tanks or any kind of air/drop, the toss will always win.
Oh yeah you could try glitching workers through the geysirs, but that is hard to do, can partially be prevented, and toss can send as many probes as needed until the first cans are up.

So while this map would obviously be completely ridiculous, it DOES demonstrate that you can mess with SC's balance through maps as much as you want.


Yeah I know you can tweak maps to balance the game but the underlying racial imbalance is still there. That's why I mentioned that I think it's an unethical way to go about it.
I know that deep inside of you there's a humongous set of testicles just waiting to pop out. Let 'em pop bro. //////////////////// AKA JensOfSweden // Lee Yoon Yeol forever.
Foucault
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Sweden2826 Posts
September 25 2009 18:08 GMT
#149
On September 26 2009 03:05 wiesel wrote:
Because there is no imbalance only better players.


Yeah of course, Starcraft is 100% balanced. God made this game, it's weird but true.

Your argument is emotional but not rational, you believe Starcraft to be 100% balanced because you like the thought of it. Of course Starcraft isn't perfectly balanced, no computer game can be basically.
I know that deep inside of you there's a humongous set of testicles just waiting to pop out. Let 'em pop bro. //////////////////// AKA JensOfSweden // Lee Yoon Yeol forever.
wiesel
Profile Joined September 2008
Germany727 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-09-25 18:14:02
September 25 2009 18:10 GMT
#150
This was more of an answer to magh's post.
And of course it can be 100% balanced just have 1 race... easy lol
God made this game, it's weird but true.

Amen!
KizZBG
Profile Blog Joined November 2006
u gotta skate8152 Posts
September 25 2009 18:10 GMT
#151
Oh wow ZvP imba thread, are we back in 2006? :p
eSTRO for life | #2 Sea.Really fan! | #1 GosI[Flying] fan! | Clide - best SC2 terran!
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-09-25 18:20:33
September 25 2009 18:17 GMT
#152
On September 26 2009 01:38 Foucault wrote:
People insist it's the game because it would be ludacris to assume that the game somehow is perfect in all aspects.

lol

Sorry, had to point it out.

On September 26 2009 01:38 Foucault wrote:
No you can't tweak maps to turn racial imbalances in Starcraft. Also there is something ethically wrong with balancing gameplay this way.

"Ethically" is probably the wrong word to use there, though I can see why someone would be against using maps as a balancing tool. The problem is that there comes a point at which the balance isn't perfect, but so close that most tweaks would be less balanced than what you start with (Starcraft's not perfectly balanced, but it's pretty damn close-a minute change like shifting a couple mineral patches out on the original Blue Storm turned it from heavily zerg-favored to almost even). Tweaking Zealot base damage or something minute could have large effects throughout the rest of the game that we might not see. It's important to remember that not only must such changes preserve inter-racial balance, but they must preserve unit viability across matchups (e.g. improved Zealots could have a huge effect on which units are important in ZvP, possibly to the point of making some units not useful anymore).

Maps are a useful tool for balance for a couple reasons.
1) They have a short development cycle - a patch takes a long time to code, debug, release, and wait for feedback. Maps by comparison can be more quickly released and tested.
2) Its easier to make fine changes - single numerical changes to actual units and buildings are huge. Shifting the positions of things around on a map allows for greater fine-tuning with regards to balance.
3) It's easy to control their effect on the scene - a new patch applies to every game, all the time. A bad patch could have catastrophic effects on the game, and would take a long time to deal with. Maps, by comparison, especially bad ones, enter and leave quickly. Proleague re-evaluates maps after every round (and in-rounds if its actually bad enough). Leagues switch maps every season, and Bo5s are such that an imbalanced map would only be relevant a fraction of the time. And below the pro level, people just wouldn't play the imba maps.
Moderator
Masq
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Canada1792 Posts
September 25 2009 18:27 GMT
#153
I am going to agree with one of the first posts in saying that it's the players. There are a TON of up and coming zerg players with rather insane mechanics when compared to Protoss. Is this due to "ZvP imbalance"? I think not. Specifically, if you look at some of the top tier zergs, their ZvP is normally around their ZvT win percentage. In my mind, there are so few major Potoss forces that stand out when compared to Zerg.


I'm a zerg/terran player, and I feel the fundamental (outside of pro-level gaming)``problem" with the ZvP matchup, is that zerg have many, many options in which to take the game. Sadly, most are defined as "cheese" and "all-ins". Whereas protoss have fewer options, such as proxy gating, and forge/cannon blocking (as seen on heartbreak). Obviously, their options are currently more limited in this metagame.

Protoss (at least on iccup) are NOT innovative, and 8/10 times you can expect some sort of bisu build opening. When you know its coming, its much easier to prepare for it and not be thrown offguard (ala ling/hydra all-in).
OneOther
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States10774 Posts
September 25 2009 18:30 GMT
#154

Protoss (at least on iccup) are NOT innovative, and 8/10 times you can expect some sort of bisu build opening. When you know its coming, its much easier to prepare for it and not be thrown offguard (ala ling/hydra all-in).

that's one of the reasons why pvz has gotten hard. zerg has so many options, whereas protoss is limited. innovative? "innovative" builds don't usually work.
Chill
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
Calgary25980 Posts
September 25 2009 18:32 GMT
#155
Oh god, now we're calling 1 sair into 2 archon / 1 sair into ht the bisu build?????
Moderator
Foucault
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Sweden2826 Posts
September 25 2009 18:35 GMT
#156
On September 26 2009 03:10 wiesel wrote:
This was more of an answer to magh's post.
And of course it can be 100% balanced just have 1 race... easy lol
Show nested quote +
God made this game, it's weird but true.

Amen!


Irony, my good sir.
I know that deep inside of you there's a humongous set of testicles just waiting to pop out. Let 'em pop bro. //////////////////// AKA JensOfSweden // Lee Yoon Yeol forever.
inertinept
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
Bangladesh1195 Posts
September 25 2009 18:36 GMT
#157
On September 26 2009 03:27 GG.Win wrote:
I am going to agree with one of the first posts in saying that it's the players. There are a TON of up and coming zerg players with rather insane mechanics when compared to Protoss. Is this due to "ZvP imbalance"? I think not. Specifically, if you look at some of the top tier zergs, their ZvP is normally around their ZvT win percentage. In my mind, there are so few major Potoss forces that stand out when compared to Zerg.


I'm a zerg/terran player, and I feel the fundamental (outside of pro-level gaming)``problem" with the ZvP matchup, is that zerg have many, many options in which to take the game. Sadly, most are defined as "cheese" and "all-ins". Whereas protoss have fewer options, such as proxy gating, and forge/cannon blocking (as seen on heartbreak). Obviously, their options are currently more limited in this metagame.

Protoss (at least on iccup) are NOT innovative, and 8/10 times you can expect some sort of bisu build opening. When you know its coming, its much easier to prepare for it and not be thrown offguard (ala ling/hydra all-in).


eh with this comment your supporting the zvp is imbalanced side dude

why do you think there is a lot of up and coming zergs and no protoss? because its much harder to make it big with protoss. might want to adjust this part of your argument..
With a gust of wind, perhaps.
AzureEye
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States1360 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-09-25 18:43:33
September 25 2009 18:40 GMT
#158
I really think ZvP is a balanced matchup. Yes, Zergs have more all-in options but the matchup seems equalizing in every way.

Maybe I'm letting my T bias see this in a different light, but any matchup that doesn't involve T seems balanced to me, T > Z, T > P. Where was that thread with all the statistics of wins verses losses for all broadcasted pro games ever played? If anyone can dig out that thread, I think historically TvZ has had a more unequal ratio than ZvP
Terrans who whine: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=107788
FirstBorn
Profile Blog Joined March 2007
Romania3955 Posts
September 25 2009 18:43 GMT
#159
On September 26 2009 03:32 Chill wrote:
Oh god, now we're calling 1 sair into 2 archon / 1 sair into ht the bisu build?????


Ever since youtube, if a protoss makes a pylon at his choke, it's Bisu build.
SonuvBob: Yes, the majority of TL is college-aged, and thus clearly stupid.
zulu_nation8
Profile Blog Joined May 2005
China26351 Posts
September 25 2009 18:43 GMT
#160
stop whining you fucking bitches
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