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On September 25 2009 22:25 okum wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2009 19:26 Foucault wrote:
And yeah people, it's not about the maps
My own theory is that big maps is good for zerg Maps don't matter, or some maps favor zerg... which way shall it be?
I mean the actual terrain and stuff of the map don't matter that much, but size does matter. For example Andromeda is a hard ass map TvP because of it's size and how easy it is for toss to grab far away expansions and cannon up while terran can't do much about it because it's too long to get there.
Same with ZvP where zerg can more easily outmacro protoss on bigger maps because protoss can't keep up with the distance to all the bases
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On September 26 2009 01:15 inertinept wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2009 01:13 ProoM wrote:On September 26 2009 01:00 selboN wrote:On September 26 2009 00:57 ProoM wrote:On September 25 2009 22:38 LuisMl8 wrote:On September 25 2009 19:38 ret wrote:
heh, this idea just seems like total crap to me when I know hard I get rolled when I 5 hat hydra / muta by very very simple zeal archon storm builds with a hardcore focus on macro. (foreigners can't do that luckily.)
any zergs opening, sets them behind right now.
Overpool -> 14 forge 14 nexus , 1 cannon, 2nd cannon if 8 lings instead of 6. -> corsair hits you super fast
9 pool -> low drone, altho p has to make 2 cannons imo your behind.
12 hatch -> risk of getting probe blocked and p going gate gas core before a cannon and his corsair hitting you super early.
speedlings builds, although strong, often have to be allin because protoss wont respect zerg for going speedlings and just play a normal build, in which case you teched after speedling their tech will be far ahead of u.
this is what happens on 2 players like desti and heartbreak all the time, and if the protoss is as good as you are then you are gonna have a rly hard time dealing with their superior build orders..
I can't remember a good pro pvz series which would lead me to believe zerg vs protoss was imbalanced for zerg... I wonder what you guys have been watching. I hope it's not the PMT stuff.
Wait till Proleague or MSL/OSL and the protoss will do fine. ZvP is seriously imbalanced at the pro and semi-pro level and not to talk about foreigners level. RET talks about something that is true, but im 100% sure that you feel much more confident playing ZvP than White-ra, Mana, Fenix Playing PvZ, RET can you make a Reppack where you lose from a Toss? Maybe we can talk about harassing Z but its way to difficult to macro and micro if you don’t have an insane EAPM P has to do double the amount of work in this matchup compared to zerg, Zerg can build up and reinforce their army so fast when under attack while protoss hasn't. I think in same level of play Zerg will always win against toss, Let make en axample there a match PvZ, P being B+ and Zerg Being B- or B zerg can win ez and always will be the most flexible race, Zerg macro at that lvl is insane that good toss have troubles beating Z, theres a Replay of AHZZ where he almost beat a A- toss, do you know what that mean? That a well execute 5hatch Hydra can adapt to everything P does, there`s no BO from toss that allow them to be a thread to them maybe Corsair/reaver but EAPM is needed very high here. With that being said Zerg players are able to dominate this matchup historically and still do LOL. harrasing takes 5 clicks, and it may kill over 20 drones. hard eh? (pick temple, move shuttle, drop ht, use storm). Lets talk about ht sniping, storm dodging, flanking and etc that zerg has to do every game? and he also has to defend from 1 high templar drop which can kill like 50 drones, or reaver, or dt. Also Z's gets no alarm when their drones gets attack, so they have to check every base every few secods... P's role is much much much more easier in PvZ. If all you can do is 4z5z6z4z5z6z4z5z6z4z5z6z 1a2a3a and then tell it doesnt work, then try learning something new. what about pro-scene, as somewho already told, its not the race, its the players. Z players improved alot in ZvP, while P's are in the same place like they were a year ago, doing the exactly same builds... Stop defending your easy match-up, scum. I've recently tried PvZ instead of ZvZ (my main race is Z), and the guy I played against was D+ main race Z, while it was like 3rd time I play PvZ in my life. The game was soooo soooo easy even I was surprised, I thought it's even a little hard to play with a toss (Always defended toss that they have to think about strategy etc.). All I did, was pushed out with 3 first zealots, doing some eco damage (4 drones I think), but that made Z to be more concerned about the possible threat, so he started making units ealier. I expoed with goon/ht army outside of my base and turtled until I got 3/3 upgrades and pushed out. just 1a2a3a4a5a gg. Its that easy. Always thought people are over reacting how easy is it to play with protoss at low levels, but I guess they arent... (it wasnt just no agression from Z game, he opened with 9 pool, and then contained me with lurks/scourges hydras for some time, until I walked out with goons and ht). I guess protoss sat on their puffy chair for too long, its time for them to start actually doing something to win, not just 1a2a3a4a5a. hey guess what einstein? this thread is about pro level. not your shitty D rank. just thought i'd let you know.
If you really think so - read the topic. If you still think so, read the topic again. If you still think so, you are stupid enough to be a great protoss.
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Have you seen Best try to play against a zerg? This is why ZvP is in favor of Z right now XD.
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On September 25 2009 22:58 Hot_Bid wrote:
This just sounds like whining, with a lot of over-generalizations and useless theorycrafting. Like the guy that says its imbalanced because of Protoss mineral gas ratio or lack of detection early game (like 1% of games end with the P dying to some sort of lurker attack).
With vastly different level players and dynamic maps, why does everyone insist on going to the source (the game) instead of these external (and just as important) factors? Why must it be THE GAME that needs fixing instead of the maps? Nobody was saying P>Z when Bisu was playing well back in GomTV. But when ratios become 60% on certain maps, suddenly the core structure of the game is not right?
Ultimately any statistical "imbalance" in any matchups can be solved easily by tweaking the maps. If Z>>P right now on the current set of maps, the leagues will adjust. Then you'll see Ps "play better" and everyone will shut up. In fact, had Bisu beaten Iris in that Game 5 and then beaten Calm (which was very close to happening), I don't think this thread even gets made. Is that what these OMFG IMBA discussions are hinging on now? 3-4 Protoss wins in the MSL semis/finals?
People insist it's the game because it would be ludacris to assume that the game somehow is perfect in all aspects. There are slight imbalances in many matchups, I don't think anyone argues with that fact. Then again strategies, builds etc of course influences gameplay ALOT too, but you notice a trend after following Starcraft for a long time. Regardless of maps and builds, there are certain imbalanced matchups. I know people hate it when someone says that Starcraft is not 100% super balanced, but it's obviously not.
No you can't tweak maps to turn racial imbalances in Starcraft. Also there is something ethically wrong with balancing gameplay this way. I do think the maps are ZvP now because alot of them are big, which makes zerg macro hardcore. Skip forward to ultras + dark swarm after 20 minutes. I've seen that in a couple of the latest games now, kinda boring.
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This just sounds like whining, with a lot of over-generalizations and useless theorycrafting. Like the guy that says its imbalanced because of Protoss mineral gas ratio or lack of detection early game (like 1% of games end with the P dying to some sort of lurker attack).
With vastly different level players and dynamic maps, why does everyone insist on going to the source (the game) instead of these external (and just as important) factors? Why must it be THE GAME that needs fixing instead of the maps? Nobody was saying P>Z when Bisu was playing well back in GomTV. But when ratios become 60% on certain maps, suddenly the core structure of the game is not right?
Ultimately any statistical "imbalance" in any matchups can be solved easily by tweaking the maps. If Z>>P right now on the current set of maps, the leagues will adjust. Then you'll see Ps "play better" and everyone will shut up. In fact, had Bisu beaten Iris in that Game 5 and then beaten Calm (which was very close to happening), I don't think this thread even gets made. Is that what these OMFG IMBA discussions are hinging on now? 3-4 Protoss wins in the MSL semis/finals?
that was me, talking about my personal mineral gas ratio, which i doubt are only true for me. if you read my original post completely you would have seen that i wasnt whining at all, i was looking for ways to adjust the match up. i also didnt blame the game, i said clearly that there is no inherit imbalance in ZvP but it is rather the fault of protoss players of having become predictable with the Bisu build. lurkers may only be the winning factor in 1% of the games but you would be crazy to tell me that zerg players are not going lurkers earlier than when the Bisu build was first introduced, crazy. i never said that lurkers won zerg players games, but they stop any early aggression from the protoss, who's army is mainly zealots.
that said, i feel like that theorycrafting is the only way to problem-solving, and the 8 things i listed were not random thoughts...i personally do have a problem with the current trend of ZvP, so i contributed something to this post, i didnt whine, that was other people and you to a degree. if you didnt think they were helpful im sorry, i didnt mean to make a long non-sensical post. but i definetly think those are big aspects in the match up that need some change.
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On September 26 2009 01:34 ProoM wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2009 01:15 inertinept wrote:On September 26 2009 01:13 ProoM wrote:On September 26 2009 01:00 selboN wrote:On September 26 2009 00:57 ProoM wrote:On September 25 2009 22:38 LuisMl8 wrote:On September 25 2009 19:38 ret wrote:
heh, this idea just seems like total crap to me when I know hard I get rolled when I 5 hat hydra / muta by very very simple zeal archon storm builds with a hardcore focus on macro. (foreigners can't do that luckily.)
any zergs opening, sets them behind right now.
Overpool -> 14 forge 14 nexus , 1 cannon, 2nd cannon if 8 lings instead of 6. -> corsair hits you super fast
9 pool -> low drone, altho p has to make 2 cannons imo your behind.
12 hatch -> risk of getting probe blocked and p going gate gas core before a cannon and his corsair hitting you super early.
speedlings builds, although strong, often have to be allin because protoss wont respect zerg for going speedlings and just play a normal build, in which case you teched after speedling their tech will be far ahead of u.
this is what happens on 2 players like desti and heartbreak all the time, and if the protoss is as good as you are then you are gonna have a rly hard time dealing with their superior build orders..
I can't remember a good pro pvz series which would lead me to believe zerg vs protoss was imbalanced for zerg... I wonder what you guys have been watching. I hope it's not the PMT stuff.
Wait till Proleague or MSL/OSL and the protoss will do fine. ZvP is seriously imbalanced at the pro and semi-pro level and not to talk about foreigners level. RET talks about something that is true, but im 100% sure that you feel much more confident playing ZvP than White-ra, Mana, Fenix Playing PvZ, RET can you make a Reppack where you lose from a Toss? Maybe we can talk about harassing Z but its way to difficult to macro and micro if you don’t have an insane EAPM P has to do double the amount of work in this matchup compared to zerg, Zerg can build up and reinforce their army so fast when under attack while protoss hasn't. I think in same level of play Zerg will always win against toss, Let make en axample there a match PvZ, P being B+ and Zerg Being B- or B zerg can win ez and always will be the most flexible race, Zerg macro at that lvl is insane that good toss have troubles beating Z, theres a Replay of AHZZ where he almost beat a A- toss, do you know what that mean? That a well execute 5hatch Hydra can adapt to everything P does, there`s no BO from toss that allow them to be a thread to them maybe Corsair/reaver but EAPM is needed very high here. With that being said Zerg players are able to dominate this matchup historically and still do LOL. harrasing takes 5 clicks, and it may kill over 20 drones. hard eh? (pick temple, move shuttle, drop ht, use storm). Lets talk about ht sniping, storm dodging, flanking and etc that zerg has to do every game? and he also has to defend from 1 high templar drop which can kill like 50 drones, or reaver, or dt. Also Z's gets no alarm when their drones gets attack, so they have to check every base every few secods... P's role is much much much more easier in PvZ. If all you can do is 4z5z6z4z5z6z4z5z6z4z5z6z 1a2a3a and then tell it doesnt work, then try learning something new. what about pro-scene, as somewho already told, its not the race, its the players. Z players improved alot in ZvP, while P's are in the same place like they were a year ago, doing the exactly same builds... Stop defending your easy match-up, scum. I've recently tried PvZ instead of ZvZ (my main race is Z), and the guy I played against was D+ main race Z, while it was like 3rd time I play PvZ in my life. The game was soooo soooo easy even I was surprised, I thought it's even a little hard to play with a toss (Always defended toss that they have to think about strategy etc.). All I did, was pushed out with 3 first zealots, doing some eco damage (4 drones I think), but that made Z to be more concerned about the possible threat, so he started making units ealier. I expoed with goon/ht army outside of my base and turtled until I got 3/3 upgrades and pushed out. just 1a2a3a4a5a gg. Its that easy. Always thought people are over reacting how easy is it to play with protoss at low levels, but I guess they arent... (it wasnt just no agression from Z game, he opened with 9 pool, and then contained me with lurks/scourges hydras for some time, until I walked out with goons and ht). I guess protoss sat on their puffy chair for too long, its time for them to start actually doing something to win, not just 1a2a3a4a5a. hey guess what einstein? this thread is about pro level. not your shitty D rank. just thought i'd let you know. If you really think so - read the topic. If you still think so, read the topic again. If you still think so, you are stupid enough to be a great protoss.
On September 25 2009 17:12 motbob wrote:
ZvP is seriously imbalanced at the pro and semi-pro level. It's remarkable how that fact has sort of snuck up on us over the past few months, but it's absolutely true. Since about March, it seems like zergs have reached a point in the metagame where they always have the build order advantage.
Whether it's because of Jaedong leading the way for zergs everywhere, or the inability for protosses to come up with any innovation in their play since the zealot/archon push that was popular 8 months ago, Protosses are in a bad place right now when they play zerg. And it's not the maps. Destination used to be balanced ZvP (56-54 before Mar 1 2009). Now it is not (61-44 after).
Let's talk numbers. In the upcoming OSL prelims, the maps used are Destination, Heartbreak Ridge, and Return of the King. The combined stats for those three maps after early March, including "non-official" games like prelim games, is 60% ZvP. Outsider is 41-27 (60.3%). Neo Medusa is 34-25 (57.6%).
Why is this matchup suddenly so drastically imbalanced?
looks like you should switch to protoss D ranked noob 
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I've actually wanted to talk about the slump that the protoss race has been on for a while now.
I think it's very similar to how Zerg were doing back in summer/fall 08 where they were just getting crushed everywhere and only JD was doing consistently well (this might partly be because PL back then didn't have race requirements so Zergs rarey got sent out). Like, ClubDay MSL only had 3 Zergs in the Ro16 (only 5 in the Ro32).
I don't really know how much can be blamed on the maps (although admittedly a lot of the maps in ClubDay were really bad for ZvP IMO), but I think it was mostly the fact taht the 6 dragons were doing so well because they had all finally perfected emulating Bisu in FE PvZ. Kal, Jangbi, free, and stork were all really really good vs Z during that time. Now I think that the problem with top Protoss players is that they just don't have any strategic players really leading the way in innovations. Sure Bisu does some stuff, but he hasn't really innovated at all since the 4gate 2 archon build. Ever since that build was figured out Zerg, Protoss has been behind in the matchup.
It's pretty sad right now that Bisu is hands-down the best PvZ on earth, but there are at least 4-5 Zergs that would at least have 50/50 shot of beating him in a Bo5 right now (Jaedong, Effort, hero, zero, july).
(Disclaimer: I may be wrong with this next paragraph because I wasn't watching the scene much until early 08 so I'm not sure about everything. Maybe im giving too much credit to nal_ra nad not enought o bisu, please let me know if I am)Bisu has never really been too much of a drastic innovator though, especially since 2008. Nal_Ra was the first to use FE and the first to use sair/reaver and many other PvZ stats. Bisu was just able to combine them with his much superior multitasking and mechanics. It seems that ever since Ra hasn't been on the forefront of Protoss strategy that it has severely stagnated.
I'm not sure if it's just that there really "isnt anything they can do" or if the protoss race just attracts less creative players than T or Z (which in the most arrogant way I like to think so  ), but Protoss players just aren't as good as creating new builds and strategies as the other races. TvZ has seen many huge innovations in the last year (with the standardization of 2-hatch play, mech, valks, hydra-lurk defiler late game, etc), but ZvP has changed much less except for very small map-specific BOs, where the Zerg always seem to be come out ahead very quickly.
Protoss needs at least 1 new player to come along and truly innovate the race, a true successor to nal_ra. I like to think Kal would be that because of how fun he is to watch and how creative he seems, but he's not very creative in BOs or strategies, but just tactics and micro. Maybe Bisu/stork/jangbi will surprise me this season and show a lot of great new strategies, but I think they've all been around too long to just suddenly start coming up with great new builds and strategies. Maybe horang2 will show us that he can come up with just more than cheese or 1-time strats, and that he will also have incredible mechanics (a lot like how flash was known for just cheese but then suddenly had amazing mechanics and late-game), but I have a lot of doubts (although he is surely probably the most interesting protoss to watch after kal now). Hopefully someone will take up the mantle that Ra left behind, I just don't know who can.
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On September 26 2009 00:28 FoBuLouS wrote:
What happened to corsair reaver? I haven't seen any of that in a long while.
Yeah, protoss needs to use this more or at least reavers.
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United States10774 Posts
On September 26 2009 01:43 Foucault wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2009 00:28 FoBuLouS wrote:
What happened to corsair reaver? I haven't seen any of that in a long while. Yeah, protoss needs to use this more or at least reavers.
most of maps aren't that good for sair/reaver these days. plus, most protoss players can't execute sair/reaver because it requires more multitasking and has less room for error.
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On September 26 2009 01:45 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2009 01:43 Foucault wrote:On September 26 2009 00:28 FoBuLouS wrote:
What happened to corsair reaver? I haven't seen any of that in a long while. Yeah, protoss needs to use this more or at least reavers. most of maps aren't that good for sair/reaver these days. plus, most protoss players can't execute sair/reaver because it requires more multitasking and has less room for error.
uh, doesn't bisu go sair/reaver almost every game vs Zerg?
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United States10774 Posts
On September 26 2009 01:48 Ideas wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2009 01:45 OneOther wrote:On September 26 2009 01:43 Foucault wrote:On September 26 2009 00:28 FoBuLouS wrote:
What happened to corsair reaver? I haven't seen any of that in a long while. Yeah, protoss needs to use this more or at least reavers. most of maps aren't that good for sair/reaver these days. plus, most protoss players can't execute sair/reaver because it requires more multitasking and has less room for error. uh, doesn't bisu go sair/reaver almost every game vs Zerg?
no
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On September 26 2009 01:40 inertinept wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2009 01:34 ProoM wrote:On September 26 2009 01:15 inertinept wrote:On September 26 2009 01:13 ProoM wrote:On September 26 2009 01:00 selboN wrote:On September 26 2009 00:57 ProoM wrote:On September 25 2009 22:38 LuisMl8 wrote:On September 25 2009 19:38 ret wrote:
heh, this idea just seems like total crap to me when I know hard I get rolled when I 5 hat hydra / muta by very very simple zeal archon storm builds with a hardcore focus on macro. (foreigners can't do that luckily.)
any zergs opening, sets them behind right now.
Overpool -> 14 forge 14 nexus , 1 cannon, 2nd cannon if 8 lings instead of 6. -> corsair hits you super fast
9 pool -> low drone, altho p has to make 2 cannons imo your behind.
12 hatch -> risk of getting probe blocked and p going gate gas core before a cannon and his corsair hitting you super early.
speedlings builds, although strong, often have to be allin because protoss wont respect zerg for going speedlings and just play a normal build, in which case you teched after speedling their tech will be far ahead of u.
this is what happens on 2 players like desti and heartbreak all the time, and if the protoss is as good as you are then you are gonna have a rly hard time dealing with their superior build orders..
I can't remember a good pro pvz series which would lead me to believe zerg vs protoss was imbalanced for zerg... I wonder what you guys have been watching. I hope it's not the PMT stuff.
Wait till Proleague or MSL/OSL and the protoss will do fine. ZvP is seriously imbalanced at the pro and semi-pro level and not to talk about foreigners level. RET talks about something that is true, but im 100% sure that you feel much more confident playing ZvP than White-ra, Mana, Fenix Playing PvZ, RET can you make a Reppack where you lose from a Toss? Maybe we can talk about harassing Z but its way to difficult to macro and micro if you don’t have an insane EAPM P has to do double the amount of work in this matchup compared to zerg, Zerg can build up and reinforce their army so fast when under attack while protoss hasn't. I think in same level of play Zerg will always win against toss, Let make en axample there a match PvZ, P being B+ and Zerg Being B- or B zerg can win ez and always will be the most flexible race, Zerg macro at that lvl is insane that good toss have troubles beating Z, theres a Replay of AHZZ where he almost beat a A- toss, do you know what that mean? That a well execute 5hatch Hydra can adapt to everything P does, there`s no BO from toss that allow them to be a thread to them maybe Corsair/reaver but EAPM is needed very high here. With that being said Zerg players are able to dominate this matchup historically and still do LOL. harrasing takes 5 clicks, and it may kill over 20 drones. hard eh? (pick temple, move shuttle, drop ht, use storm). Lets talk about ht sniping, storm dodging, flanking and etc that zerg has to do every game? and he also has to defend from 1 high templar drop which can kill like 50 drones, or reaver, or dt. Also Z's gets no alarm when their drones gets attack, so they have to check every base every few secods... P's role is much much much more easier in PvZ. If all you can do is 4z5z6z4z5z6z4z5z6z4z5z6z 1a2a3a and then tell it doesnt work, then try learning something new. what about pro-scene, as somewho already told, its not the race, its the players. Z players improved alot in ZvP, while P's are in the same place like they were a year ago, doing the exactly same builds... Stop defending your easy match-up, scum. I've recently tried PvZ instead of ZvZ (my main race is Z), and the guy I played against was D+ main race Z, while it was like 3rd time I play PvZ in my life. The game was soooo soooo easy even I was surprised, I thought it's even a little hard to play with a toss (Always defended toss that they have to think about strategy etc.). All I did, was pushed out with 3 first zealots, doing some eco damage (4 drones I think), but that made Z to be more concerned about the possible threat, so he started making units ealier. I expoed with goon/ht army outside of my base and turtled until I got 3/3 upgrades and pushed out. just 1a2a3a4a5a gg. Its that easy. Always thought people are over reacting how easy is it to play with protoss at low levels, but I guess they arent... (it wasnt just no agression from Z game, he opened with 9 pool, and then contained me with lurks/scourges hydras for some time, until I walked out with goons and ht). I guess protoss sat on their puffy chair for too long, its time for them to start actually doing something to win, not just 1a2a3a4a5a. hey guess what einstein? this thread is about pro level. not your shitty D rank. just thought i'd let you know. If you really think so - read the topic. If you still think so, read the topic again. If you still think so, you are stupid enough to be a great protoss. Show nested quote +On September 25 2009 17:12 motbob wrote:
ZvP is seriously imbalanced at the pro and semi-pro level. It's remarkable how that fact has sort of snuck up on us over the past few months, but it's absolutely true. Since about March, it seems like zergs have reached a point in the metagame where they always have the build order advantage.
Whether it's because of Jaedong leading the way for zergs everywhere, or the inability for protosses to come up with any innovation in their play since the zealot/archon push that was popular 8 months ago, Protosses are in a bad place right now when they play zerg. And it's not the maps. Destination used to be balanced ZvP (56-54 before Mar 1 2009). Now it is not (61-44 after).
Let's talk numbers. In the upcoming OSL prelims, the maps used are Destination, Heartbreak Ridge, and Return of the King. The combined stats for those three maps after early March, including "non-official" games like prelim games, is 60% ZvP. Outsider is 41-27 (60.3%). Neo Medusa is 34-25 (57.6%).
Why is this matchup suddenly so drastically imbalanced? looks like you should switch to protoss D ranked noob
another protoss... now look at the thread topic again... "ZvP is imbalanced"
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On September 26 2009 01:45 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2009 01:43 Foucault wrote:On September 26 2009 00:28 FoBuLouS wrote:
What happened to corsair reaver? I haven't seen any of that in a long while. Yeah, protoss needs to use this more or at least reavers. most of maps aren't that good for sair/reaver these days. plus, most protoss players can't execute sair/reaver because it requires more multitasking and has less room for error.
Yeah it requires quite alot of micro and control which makes it a risky build. That's one thing I consider imbalanced with PvZ, the fact that protoss is so much more fragile.
One thing that's really annoying is when protoss makes all these fun strats with reaver/sair and what not and after playing around for a while zerg kills him with mass hydra. The simplicity in ZvP makes it a pretty clear-cut matchup as opposed to PvZ where protoss must be aware of tech switches and brutal flanks all the time. That's another reason why many of these big new maps sucks PvZ, because protoss is so easily flankable
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On September 26 2009 01:48 Ideas wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2009 01:45 OneOther wrote:On September 26 2009 01:43 Foucault wrote:On September 26 2009 00:28 FoBuLouS wrote:
What happened to corsair reaver? I haven't seen any of that in a long while. Yeah, protoss needs to use this more or at least reavers. most of maps aren't that good for sair/reaver these days. plus, most protoss players can't execute sair/reaver because it requires more multitasking and has less room for error. uh, doesn't bisu go sair/reaver almost every game vs Zerg?
For the past looooong while, the only time Bisu has gone sair-reaver is in a game on Outsider which he lost, and on HBR against by.hero, which he also lost. Before those two games, the last game I remember Bisu using sair-reaver is on Destination vs Jaedong which he also lost. Bisu is arguably the best sair-reaver user, but even he's been having difficulty using the build successfully lately.
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On September 26 2009 01:54 ProoM wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2009 01:40 inertinept wrote:On September 26 2009 01:34 ProoM wrote:On September 26 2009 01:15 inertinept wrote:On September 26 2009 01:13 ProoM wrote:On September 26 2009 01:00 selboN wrote:On September 26 2009 00:57 ProoM wrote:On September 25 2009 22:38 LuisMl8 wrote:On September 25 2009 19:38 ret wrote:
heh, this idea just seems like total crap to me when I know hard I get rolled when I 5 hat hydra / muta by very very simple zeal archon storm builds with a hardcore focus on macro. (foreigners can't do that luckily.)
any zergs opening, sets them behind right now.
Overpool -> 14 forge 14 nexus , 1 cannon, 2nd cannon if 8 lings instead of 6. -> corsair hits you super fast
9 pool -> low drone, altho p has to make 2 cannons imo your behind.
12 hatch -> risk of getting probe blocked and p going gate gas core before a cannon and his corsair hitting you super early.
speedlings builds, although strong, often have to be allin because protoss wont respect zerg for going speedlings and just play a normal build, in which case you teched after speedling their tech will be far ahead of u.
this is what happens on 2 players like desti and heartbreak all the time, and if the protoss is as good as you are then you are gonna have a rly hard time dealing with their superior build orders..
I can't remember a good pro pvz series which would lead me to believe zerg vs protoss was imbalanced for zerg... I wonder what you guys have been watching. I hope it's not the PMT stuff.
Wait till Proleague or MSL/OSL and the protoss will do fine. ZvP is seriously imbalanced at the pro and semi-pro level and not to talk about foreigners level. RET talks about something that is true, but im 100% sure that you feel much more confident playing ZvP than White-ra, Mana, Fenix Playing PvZ, RET can you make a Reppack where you lose from a Toss? Maybe we can talk about harassing Z but its way to difficult to macro and micro if you don’t have an insane EAPM P has to do double the amount of work in this matchup compared to zerg, Zerg can build up and reinforce their army so fast when under attack while protoss hasn't. I think in same level of play Zerg will always win against toss, Let make en axample there a match PvZ, P being B+ and Zerg Being B- or B zerg can win ez and always will be the most flexible race, Zerg macro at that lvl is insane that good toss have troubles beating Z, theres a Replay of AHZZ where he almost beat a A- toss, do you know what that mean? That a well execute 5hatch Hydra can adapt to everything P does, there`s no BO from toss that allow them to be a thread to them maybe Corsair/reaver but EAPM is needed very high here. With that being said Zerg players are able to dominate this matchup historically and still do LOL. harrasing takes 5 clicks, and it may kill over 20 drones. hard eh? (pick temple, move shuttle, drop ht, use storm). Lets talk about ht sniping, storm dodging, flanking and etc that zerg has to do every game? and he also has to defend from 1 high templar drop which can kill like 50 drones, or reaver, or dt. Also Z's gets no alarm when their drones gets attack, so they have to check every base every few secods... P's role is much much much more easier in PvZ. If all you can do is 4z5z6z4z5z6z4z5z6z4z5z6z 1a2a3a and then tell it doesnt work, then try learning something new. what about pro-scene, as somewho already told, its not the race, its the players. Z players improved alot in ZvP, while P's are in the same place like they were a year ago, doing the exactly same builds... Stop defending your easy match-up, scum. I've recently tried PvZ instead of ZvZ (my main race is Z), and the guy I played against was D+ main race Z, while it was like 3rd time I play PvZ in my life. The game was soooo soooo easy even I was surprised, I thought it's even a little hard to play with a toss (Always defended toss that they have to think about strategy etc.). All I did, was pushed out with 3 first zealots, doing some eco damage (4 drones I think), but that made Z to be more concerned about the possible threat, so he started making units ealier. I expoed with goon/ht army outside of my base and turtled until I got 3/3 upgrades and pushed out. just 1a2a3a4a5a gg. Its that easy. Always thought people are over reacting how easy is it to play with protoss at low levels, but I guess they arent... (it wasnt just no agression from Z game, he opened with 9 pool, and then contained me with lurks/scourges hydras for some time, until I walked out with goons and ht). I guess protoss sat on their puffy chair for too long, its time for them to start actually doing something to win, not just 1a2a3a4a5a. hey guess what einstein? this thread is about pro level. not your shitty D rank. just thought i'd let you know. If you really think so - read the topic. If you still think so, read the topic again. If you still think so, you are stupid enough to be a great protoss. On September 25 2009 17:12 motbob wrote:
ZvP is seriously imbalanced at the pro and semi-pro level. It's remarkable how that fact has sort of snuck up on us over the past few months, but it's absolutely true. Since about March, it seems like zergs have reached a point in the metagame where they always have the build order advantage.
Whether it's because of Jaedong leading the way for zergs everywhere, or the inability for protosses to come up with any innovation in their play since the zealot/archon push that was popular 8 months ago, Protosses are in a bad place right now when they play zerg. And it's not the maps. Destination used to be balanced ZvP (56-54 before Mar 1 2009). Now it is not (61-44 after).
Let's talk numbers. In the upcoming OSL prelims, the maps used are Destination, Heartbreak Ridge, and Return of the King. The combined stats for those three maps after early March, including "non-official" games like prelim games, is 60% ZvP. Outsider is 41-27 (60.3%). Neo Medusa is 34-25 (57.6%).
Why is this matchup suddenly so drastically imbalanced? looks like you should switch to protoss D ranked noob another protoss... now look at the thread topic again... "ZvP is imbalanced"
Shut up and learn to read the OP.
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I just want to say that people talking about a personal game they played at D level is not in any way even remotely comparable to StarCraft as a whole and especially not at esports level.
I think we'll have to wait and see how the new season, doubled with new maps, plays out. Hopefully Aiur can make a comeback.
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On September 26 2009 01:15 inertinept wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2009 01:13 ProoM wrote:On September 26 2009 01:00 selboN wrote:On September 26 2009 00:57 ProoM wrote:On September 25 2009 22:38 LuisMl8 wrote:On September 25 2009 19:38 ret wrote:
heh, this idea just seems like total crap to me when I know hard I get rolled when I 5 hat hydra / muta by very very simple zeal archon storm builds with a hardcore focus on macro. (foreigners can't do that luckily.)
any zergs opening, sets them behind right now.
Overpool -> 14 forge 14 nexus , 1 cannon, 2nd cannon if 8 lings instead of 6. -> corsair hits you super fast
9 pool -> low drone, altho p has to make 2 cannons imo your behind.
12 hatch -> risk of getting probe blocked and p going gate gas core before a cannon and his corsair hitting you super early.
speedlings builds, although strong, often have to be allin because protoss wont respect zerg for going speedlings and just play a normal build, in which case you teched after speedling their tech will be far ahead of u.
this is what happens on 2 players like desti and heartbreak all the time, and if the protoss is as good as you are then you are gonna have a rly hard time dealing with their superior build orders..
I can't remember a good pro pvz series which would lead me to believe zerg vs protoss was imbalanced for zerg... I wonder what you guys have been watching. I hope it's not the PMT stuff.
Wait till Proleague or MSL/OSL and the protoss will do fine. ZvP is seriously imbalanced at the pro and semi-pro level and not to talk about foreigners level. RET talks about something that is true, but im 100% sure that you feel much more confident playing ZvP than White-ra, Mana, Fenix Playing PvZ, RET can you make a Reppack where you lose from a Toss? Maybe we can talk about harassing Z but its way to difficult to macro and micro if you don’t have an insane EAPM P has to do double the amount of work in this matchup compared to zerg, Zerg can build up and reinforce their army so fast when under attack while protoss hasn't. I think in same level of play Zerg will always win against toss, Let make en axample there a match PvZ, P being B+ and Zerg Being B- or B zerg can win ez and always will be the most flexible race, Zerg macro at that lvl is insane that good toss have troubles beating Z, theres a Replay of AHZZ where he almost beat a A- toss, do you know what that mean? That a well execute 5hatch Hydra can adapt to everything P does, there`s no BO from toss that allow them to be a thread to them maybe Corsair/reaver but EAPM is needed very high here. With that being said Zerg players are able to dominate this matchup historically and still do LOL. harrasing takes 5 clicks, and it may kill over 20 drones. hard eh? (pick temple, move shuttle, drop ht, use storm). Lets talk about ht sniping, storm dodging, flanking and etc that zerg has to do every game? and he also has to defend from 1 high templar drop which can kill like 50 drones, or reaver, or dt. Also Z's gets no alarm when their drones gets attack, so they have to check every base every few secods... P's role is much much much more easier in PvZ. If all you can do is 4z5z6z4z5z6z4z5z6z4z5z6z 1a2a3a and then tell it doesnt work, then try learning something new. what about pro-scene, as somewho already told, its not the race, its the players. Z players improved alot in ZvP, while P's are in the same place like they were a year ago, doing the exactly same builds... Stop defending your easy match-up, scum. I've recently tried PvZ instead of ZvZ (my main race is Z), and the guy I played against was D+ main race Z, while it was like 3rd time I play PvZ in my life. The game was soooo soooo easy even I was surprised, I thought it's even a little hard to play with a toss (Always defended toss that they have to think about strategy etc.). All I did, was pushed out with 3 first zealots, doing some eco damage (4 drones I think), but that made Z to be more concerned about the possible threat, so he started making units ealier. I expoed with goon/ht army outside of my base and turtled until I got 3/3 upgrades and pushed out. just 1a2a3a4a5a gg. Its that easy. Always thought people are over reacting how easy is it to play with protoss at low levels, but I guess they arent... (it wasnt just no agression from Z game, he opened with 9 pool, and then contained me with lurks/scourges hydras for some time, until I walked out with goons and ht). I guess protoss sat on their puffy chair for too long, its time for them to start actually doing something to win, not just 1a2a3a4a5a. hey guess what einstein? this thread is about pro level. not your shitty D rank. just thought i'd let you know.
Whats even worse is it sounds like he was vsing a D- noobie.
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On September 26 2009 01:59 Successful wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2009 01:15 inertinept wrote:On September 26 2009 01:13 ProoM wrote:On September 26 2009 01:00 selboN wrote:On September 26 2009 00:57 ProoM wrote:On September 25 2009 22:38 LuisMl8 wrote:On September 25 2009 19:38 ret wrote:
heh, this idea just seems like total crap to me when I know hard I get rolled when I 5 hat hydra / muta by very very simple zeal archon storm builds with a hardcore focus on macro. (foreigners can't do that luckily.)
any zergs opening, sets them behind right now.
Overpool -> 14 forge 14 nexus , 1 cannon, 2nd cannon if 8 lings instead of 6. -> corsair hits you super fast
9 pool -> low drone, altho p has to make 2 cannons imo your behind.
12 hatch -> risk of getting probe blocked and p going gate gas core before a cannon and his corsair hitting you super early.
speedlings builds, although strong, often have to be allin because protoss wont respect zerg for going speedlings and just play a normal build, in which case you teched after speedling their tech will be far ahead of u.
this is what happens on 2 players like desti and heartbreak all the time, and if the protoss is as good as you are then you are gonna have a rly hard time dealing with their superior build orders..
I can't remember a good pro pvz series which would lead me to believe zerg vs protoss was imbalanced for zerg... I wonder what you guys have been watching. I hope it's not the PMT stuff.
Wait till Proleague or MSL/OSL and the protoss will do fine. ZvP is seriously imbalanced at the pro and semi-pro level and not to talk about foreigners level. RET talks about something that is true, but im 100% sure that you feel much more confident playing ZvP than White-ra, Mana, Fenix Playing PvZ, RET can you make a Reppack where you lose from a Toss? Maybe we can talk about harassing Z but its way to difficult to macro and micro if you don’t have an insane EAPM P has to do double the amount of work in this matchup compared to zerg, Zerg can build up and reinforce their army so fast when under attack while protoss hasn't. I think in same level of play Zerg will always win against toss, Let make en axample there a match PvZ, P being B+ and Zerg Being B- or B zerg can win ez and always will be the most flexible race, Zerg macro at that lvl is insane that good toss have troubles beating Z, theres a Replay of AHZZ where he almost beat a A- toss, do you know what that mean? That a well execute 5hatch Hydra can adapt to everything P does, there`s no BO from toss that allow them to be a thread to them maybe Corsair/reaver but EAPM is needed very high here. With that being said Zerg players are able to dominate this matchup historically and still do LOL. harrasing takes 5 clicks, and it may kill over 20 drones. hard eh? (pick temple, move shuttle, drop ht, use storm). Lets talk about ht sniping, storm dodging, flanking and etc that zerg has to do every game? and he also has to defend from 1 high templar drop which can kill like 50 drones, or reaver, or dt. Also Z's gets no alarm when their drones gets attack, so they have to check every base every few secods... P's role is much much much more easier in PvZ. If all you can do is 4z5z6z4z5z6z4z5z6z4z5z6z 1a2a3a and then tell it doesnt work, then try learning something new. what about pro-scene, as somewho already told, its not the race, its the players. Z players improved alot in ZvP, while P's are in the same place like they were a year ago, doing the exactly same builds... Stop defending your easy match-up, scum. I've recently tried PvZ instead of ZvZ (my main race is Z), and the guy I played against was D+ main race Z, while it was like 3rd time I play PvZ in my life. The game was soooo soooo easy even I was surprised, I thought it's even a little hard to play with a toss (Always defended toss that they have to think about strategy etc.). All I did, was pushed out with 3 first zealots, doing some eco damage (4 drones I think), but that made Z to be more concerned about the possible threat, so he started making units ealier. I expoed with goon/ht army outside of my base and turtled until I got 3/3 upgrades and pushed out. just 1a2a3a4a5a gg. Its that easy. Always thought people are over reacting how easy is it to play with protoss at low levels, but I guess they arent... (it wasnt just no agression from Z game, he opened with 9 pool, and then contained me with lurks/scourges hydras for some time, until I walked out with goons and ht). I guess protoss sat on their puffy chair for too long, its time for them to start actually doing something to win, not just 1a2a3a4a5a. hey guess what einstein? this thread is about pro level. not your shitty D rank. just thought i'd let you know. Whats even worse is it sounds like he was vsing a D- noobie.
It sounds like that because it was a PvZ...
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On September 26 2009 02:13 koreasilver wrote:
Can I kill you.
Yes
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EPT
