On September 26 2009 03:27 GG.Win wrote: I am going to agree with one of the first posts in saying that it's the players. There are a TON of up and coming zerg players with rather insane mechanics when compared to Protoss. Is this due to "ZvP imbalance"? I think not. Specifically, if you look at some of the top tier zergs, their ZvP is normally around their ZvT win percentage. In my mind, there are so few major Potoss forces that stand out when compared to Zerg.
I'm a zerg/terran player, and I feel the fundamental (outside of pro-level gaming)``problem" with the ZvP matchup, is that zerg have many, many options in which to take the game. Sadly, most are defined as "cheese" and "all-ins". Whereas protoss have fewer options, such as proxy gating, and forge/cannon blocking (as seen on heartbreak). Obviously, their options are currently more limited in this metagame.
Protoss (at least on iccup) are NOT innovative, and 8/10 times you can expect some sort of bisu build opening. When you know its coming, its much easier to prepare for it and not be thrown offguard (ala ling/hydra all-in).
eh with this comment your supporting the zvp is imbalanced side dude
why do you think there is a lot of up and coming zergs and no protoss? because its much harder to make it big with protoss. might want to adjust this part of your argument..
What are you talking about? Zergs planned to be Zerg two years ago because they realized that Zerg was easy? Or it's just a coincidence and suddenly ZvP became easy and now they're up and coming?
How about it's related to styles and right now Zergs are slightly better? This happens every six months. Remember when Protoss was raping, and the dragons, and Terran couldn't win anything? Remember when Boxer and his crew were raping? Remember before Savior when Zergs couldn't win shit? This always happens and people always freak out.
On September 25 2009 22:58 Hot_Bid wrote: This just sounds like whining, with a lot of over-generalizations and useless theorycrafting. Like the guy that says its imbalanced because of Protoss mineral gas ratio or lack of detection early game (like 1% of games end with the P dying to some sort of lurker attack).
With vastly different level players and dynamic maps, why does everyone insist on going to the source (the game) instead of these external (and just as important) factors? Why must it be THE GAME that needs fixing instead of the maps? Nobody was saying P>Z when Bisu was playing well back in GomTV. But when ratios become 60% on certain maps, suddenly the core structure of the game is not right?
Ultimately any statistical "imbalance" in any matchups can be solved easily by tweaking the maps. If Z>>P right now on the current set of maps, the leagues will adjust. Then you'll see Ps "play better" and everyone will shut up. In fact, had Bisu beaten Iris in that Game 5 and then beaten Calm (which was very close to happening), I don't think this thread even gets made. Is that what these OMFG IMBA discussions are hinging on now? 3-4 Protoss wins in the MSL semis/finals?
The maps are all looking pretty bad for protoss right now
A SINGLE TEAR FOR BRETHREN ON AIUR
edit: to clarify thats MY brethren. the ones in aiur. cuz I'm a corsair.
On September 26 2009 03:44 Chill wrote: What are you talking about? Zergs planned to be Zerg two years ago because they realized that Zerg was easy? Or it's just a coincidence and suddenly ZvP became easy and now they're up and coming?
How about it's related to styles and right now Zergs are slightly better? This happens every six months. Remember when Protoss was raping, and the dragons, and Terran couldn't win anything? Remember when Boxer and his crew were raping? Remember before Savior when Zergs couldn't win shit? This always happens and people always freak out.
Exactly.
If anything, people bitching about balance is a good thing, because it implies that BW is still changing, and has a dynamic and vibrant metagame.
Yeah zergs are also playing better than protoss players right now. I think protoss has to discover some new builds or what not, because the bisu thing obviously isn't working that well anymore. Then again I'm not sure how much room there is for new PvZ builds, but somehow people always make up new builds anyways. Protoss needs to change the current PvZ gameflow.
Randomly, two things comes to mind:
1) More agressive play. Pressure zerg more, perhaps agressive 1 base builds can throw zergs that 3-hatch off guard.
2) Reavers. On ground, in shuttles, with sairs. Reavers are good, use them. I haven't seen many scarabs flying around lately unfortunately.
On September 25 2009 23:29 Hayarok wrote: i agree Zerg has advantage in ZvP. its goes like that T>Z , T=P , Z>P.
I don't think Z is that much > than P, Z is just slightly more versatile in the matchup and less limited, but yeah I agree
On September 25 2009 23:39 Geo.Rion wrote: You easely can pick a period when a certain matchup looked or was imbalanced, Though if you pick a large period (years) or look at the whole history you see the most "imbalanced" mu is TvZ with 53.5% vs 46.5% or so, at least the last time i saw it, it looked like this.
Thank you, this is what I wanted to say. We need a TvZ is imba! thread 3 times for every 1 time we get a ZvP imba thread
as far as innovation goes- i had a protoss player bull dog me last night in a zvp on desti. does that count as innovation?
but in all seriousness- and it has been said before: protoss is getting stagnant. i have seen nothing new in their game play for almost a year now. What can you expect? zerg is adapting and protoss refuses to change, and or think of something strategically new.
On September 25 2009 22:58 Hot_Bid wrote: This just sounds like whining, with a lot of over-generalizations and useless theorycrafting. Like the guy that says its imbalanced because of Protoss mineral gas ratio or lack of detection early game (like 1% of games end with the P dying to some sort of lurker attack).
With vastly different level players and dynamic maps, why does everyone insist on going to the source (the game) instead of these external (and just as important) factors? Why must it be THE GAME that needs fixing instead of the maps? Nobody was saying P>Z when Bisu was playing well back in GomTV. But when ratios become 60% on certain maps, suddenly the core structure of the game is not right?
Ultimately any statistical "imbalance" in any matchups can be solved easily by tweaking the maps. If Z>>P right now on the current set of maps, the leagues will adjust. Then you'll see Ps "play better" and everyone will shut up. In fact, had Bisu beaten Iris in that Game 5 and then beaten Calm (which was very close to happening), I don't think this thread even gets made. Is that what these OMFG IMBA discussions are hinging on now? 3-4 Protoss wins in the MSL semis/finals?
I don't even like Protosses, man. I'm a Jaedong fan. I'm just curious as to why this matchup has suddenly shifted from balanced 8 months ago to imbalanced now.
EDIT: updated the OP to clarify what I mean by "imbalanced"
On September 26 2009 03:27 GG.Win wrote: I am going to agree with one of the first posts in saying that it's the players. There are a TON of up and coming zerg players with rather insane mechanics when compared to Protoss. Is this due to "ZvP imbalance"? I think not. Specifically, if you look at some of the top tier zergs, their ZvP is normally around their ZvT win percentage. In my mind, there are so few major Potoss forces that stand out when compared to Zerg.
I'm a zerg/terran player, and I feel the fundamental (outside of pro-level gaming)``problem" with the ZvP matchup, is that zerg have many, many options in which to take the game. Sadly, most are defined as "cheese" and "all-ins". Whereas protoss have fewer options, such as proxy gating, and forge/cannon blocking (as seen on heartbreak). Obviously, their options are currently more limited in this metagame.
Protoss (at least on iccup) are NOT innovative, and 8/10 times you can expect some sort of bisu build opening. When you know its coming, its much easier to prepare for it and not be thrown offguard (ala ling/hydra all-in).
eh with this comment your supporting the zvp is imbalanced side dude
why do you think there is a lot of up and coming zergs and no protoss? because its much harder to make it big with protoss. might want to adjust this part of your argument..
What are you talking about? Zergs planned to be Zerg two years ago because they realized that Zerg was easy? Or it's just a coincidence and suddenly ZvP became easy and now they're up and coming?
How about it's related to styles and right now Zergs are slightly better? This happens every six months. Remember when Protoss was raping, and the dragons, and Terran couldn't win anything? Remember when Boxer and his crew were raping? Remember before Savior when Zergs couldn't win shit? This always happens and people always freak out.
i dont really see what your trying to say. Race distribution is pretty even its not like they all went zerg. It's just the current professional protosses at the moment aren't good enough. I don't really know why your arguing with me anyway as I said that I do not think ZvP is imbalanced.
On September 26 2009 04:03 Misrah wrote: as far as innovation goes- i had a protoss player bull dog me last night in a zvp on desti. does that count as innovation?
but in all seriousness- and it has been said before: protoss is getting stagnant. i have seen nothing new in their game play for almost a year now. What can you expect? zerg is adapting and protoss refuses to change, and or think of something strategically new.
Old game, everything has been done and it turns out z is better then p
I dont know. I always feel like my PvZ is the most solid of all my MU's. I look at it this way. The zerg can only do 2 things. Hydras or Mutals. And i have an arsenal of units on 2 base 2 gas that i can use to destroy it. But here's the catch. Protoss are so PREDICTABLE these days. Hell i played a ZvP on HBR just for shits and giggles today on the C- level and i absolutly STOMPED the Protoss. Protoss's nowadays need to BE MORE AGRESSIVE imo.
Nevuk wrote a GREAT article showing the weaknesses that zerg have in their first 10 minutes. Exploit it. Use it to your advantage. SCOUT SCOUT SCOUT. There's a reason why Bisu is the best Protoss in the world. He can use the extended scouting information to his advantage and wrap his build orders around what he knows.
I love love LOVE suiciding zlots. Early game 7 minute-ish i take 6-8 lots (+1 and speed) and i dash into the zerg's main and snipe as many tech buildings as i can. Den/Spire take priority followed by Evocham/Pool. You have NO clue how annoying that is for zerg. be unpredictable
Nal_rA was sick with his corsair reaver in zvp. the corsair's ability is pretty damn good when he uses it. We need more reavers and corsairs in this MU!
I'm a protoss player, and I really have trouble with PvZ... But I wouldn't go so far as to call it imbalanced. It's just a phase, it'll pass soon with a new innovative strategy ;P
On September 26 2009 01:38 Foucault wrote: No you can't tweak maps to turn racial imbalances in Starcraft. Also there is something ethically wrong with balancing gameplay this way. I do think the maps are ZvP now because alot of them are big, which makes zerg macro hardcore. Skip forward to ultras + dark swarm after 20 minutes. I've seen that in a couple of the latest games now, kinda boring.
Yes you can tweak maps so that they favor one race over the other. Usually through width and number of paths/areas, as well as expansion placement and type (minonly or min+gas). But there are many other things that can be done, which sometimes make the maps "weird" or "non-standard". Also remember the huge balance shifts an island map causes.
Btw, here is an example of an immensly imbalanced p > t, p > z map: It's a 2 player island map, with the two main mineral lines close to each other, and a cliff overlooking both minlines. The cliff is only buildable with 2x2 buildings, especially pylons and cannons, the cannons reach the main minerals. Now toss only needs to get up on the cliff but the enemy must not be able to. This can be done with a setup similar to troy assimilators. Protoss can build an assimilator on a geysir and open up a path for probes, while refineries/extractors are too large. Since the ground is mostly unbuildable you can't even land a rax. And because a can rush is much faster than siege tanks or any kind of air/drop, the toss will always win. Oh yeah you could try glitching workers through the geysirs, but that is hard to do, can partially be prevented, and toss can send as many probes as needed until the first cans are up.
So while this map would obviously be completely ridiculous, it DOES demonstrate that you can mess with SC's balance through maps as much as you want.
Yeah I know you can tweak maps to balance the game but the underlying racial imbalance is still there. That's why I mentioned that I think it's an unethical way to go about it.
You cannot separate balance including the map effects and balance excluding the map effects. SC cannot be played without a map and thus the map is always a factor in balance. That's why there is no "underlying racial imbalance". You can't define that "underlying racial imbalance" through some standard map either, because there is no map that is balanced by itself.
Protoss (at least on iccup) are NOT innovative, and 8/10 times you can expect some sort of bisu build opening. When you know its coming, its much easier to prepare for it and not be thrown offguard (ala ling/hydra all-in).
that's one of the reasons why pvz has gotten hard. zerg has so many options, whereas protoss is limited. innovative? "innovative" builds don't usually work.
There is some work involved in MAKING innovative builds work. To be able to do 2 hatch effectively, many zergs had to drastically improve their muta micro. 3hat spire 5 hath hydra isn't just such a great build that it works no matter how bad you play. It took quite a while for terrans to figure out how to properly do vult into expansion builds with all the followups.
Then I see protosses just letting their arbiters attack lone turrets until they die, stacking all their arbiters to make sure the next EMP hits all of them, and the rare time I see a dark archon, they let it get sniped so easily (that thing has a TON of shields, how can you lose it like that) and then no more dark archons will follow ever after, even though maelstrom is already researched. And don't tell me that microing those units is too hard - look at tvz / zvz.
On September 25 2009 22:58 Hot_Bid wrote: This just sounds like whining, with a lot of over-generalizations and useless theorycrafting. Like the guy that says its imbalanced because of Protoss mineral gas ratio or lack of detection early game (like 1% of games end with the P dying to some sort of lurker attack).
With vastly different level players and dynamic maps, why does everyone insist on going to the source (the game) instead of these external (and just as important) factors? Why must it be THE GAME that needs fixing instead of the maps? Nobody was saying P>Z when Bisu was playing well back in GomTV. But when ratios become 60% on certain maps, suddenly the core structure of the game is not right?
Ultimately any statistical "imbalance" in any matchups can be solved easily by tweaking the maps. If Z>>P right now on the current set of maps, the leagues will adjust. Then you'll see Ps "play better" and everyone will shut up. In fact, had Bisu beaten Iris in that Game 5 and then beaten Calm (which was very close to happening), I don't think this thread even gets made. Is that what these OMFG IMBA discussions are hinging on now? 3-4 Protoss wins in the MSL semis/finals?
I don't even like Protosses, man. I'm a Jaedong fan. I'm just curious as to why this matchup has suddenly shifted from balanced 8 months ago to imbalanced now.
EDIT: updated the OP to clarify what I mean by "imbalanced"
On September 26 2009 03:27 GG.Win wrote: I am going to agree with one of the first posts in saying that it's the players. There are a TON of up and coming zerg players with rather insane mechanics when compared to Protoss. Is this due to "ZvP imbalance"? I think not. Specifically, if you look at some of the top tier zergs, their ZvP is normally around their ZvT win percentage. In my mind, there are so few major Potoss forces that stand out when compared to Zerg.
I'm a zerg/terran player, and I feel the fundamental (outside of pro-level gaming)``problem" with the ZvP matchup, is that zerg have many, many options in which to take the game. Sadly, most are defined as "cheese" and "all-ins". Whereas protoss have fewer options, such as proxy gating, and forge/cannon blocking (as seen on heartbreak). Obviously, their options are currently more limited in this metagame.
Protoss (at least on iccup) are NOT innovative, and 8/10 times you can expect some sort of bisu build opening. When you know its coming, its much easier to prepare for it and not be thrown offguard (ala ling/hydra all-in).
eh with this comment your supporting the zvp is imbalanced side dude
why do you think there is a lot of up and coming zergs and no protoss? because its much harder to make it big with protoss. might want to adjust this part of your argument..
What are you talking about? Zergs planned to be Zerg two years ago because they realized that Zerg was easy? Or it's just a coincidence and suddenly ZvP became easy and now they're up and coming?
How about it's related to styles and right now Zergs are slightly better? This happens every six months. Remember when Protoss was raping, and the dragons, and Terran couldn't win anything? Remember when Boxer and his crew were raping? Remember before Savior when Zergs couldn't win shit? This always happens and people always freak out.
On September 25 2009 22:58 Hot_Bid wrote: This just sounds like whining, with a lot of over-generalizations and useless theorycrafting. Like the guy that says its imbalanced because of Protoss mineral gas ratio or lack of detection early game (like 1% of games end with the P dying to some sort of lurker attack).
With vastly different level players and dynamic maps, why does everyone insist on going to the source (the game) instead of these external (and just as important) factors? Why must it be THE GAME that needs fixing instead of the maps? Nobody was saying P>Z when Bisu was playing well back in GomTV. But when ratios become 60% on certain maps, suddenly the core structure of the game is not right?
Ultimately any statistical "imbalance" in any matchups can be solved easily by tweaking the maps. If Z>>P right now on the current set of maps, the leagues will adjust. Then you'll see Ps "play better" and everyone will shut up. In fact, had Bisu beaten Iris in that Game 5 and then beaten Calm (which was very close to happening), I don't think this thread even gets made. Is that what these OMFG IMBA discussions are hinging on now? 3-4 Protoss wins in the MSL semis/finals?
I don't even like Protosses, man. I'm a Jaedong fan. I'm just curious as to why this matchup has suddenly shifted from balanced 8 months ago to imbalanced now.
EDIT: updated the OP to clarify what I mean by "imbalanced"
On September 26 2009 03:27 GG.Win wrote: I am going to agree with one of the first posts in saying that it's the players. There are a TON of up and coming zerg players with rather insane mechanics when compared to Protoss. Is this due to "ZvP imbalance"? I think not. Specifically, if you look at some of the top tier zergs, their ZvP is normally around their ZvT win percentage. In my mind, there are so few major Potoss forces that stand out when compared to Zerg.
I'm a zerg/terran player, and I feel the fundamental (outside of pro-level gaming)``problem" with the ZvP matchup, is that zerg have many, many options in which to take the game. Sadly, most are defined as "cheese" and "all-ins". Whereas protoss have fewer options, such as proxy gating, and forge/cannon blocking (as seen on heartbreak). Obviously, their options are currently more limited in this metagame.
Protoss (at least on iccup) are NOT innovative, and 8/10 times you can expect some sort of bisu build opening. When you know its coming, its much easier to prepare for it and not be thrown offguard (ala ling/hydra all-in).
eh with this comment your supporting the zvp is imbalanced side dude
why do you think there is a lot of up and coming zergs and no protoss? because its much harder to make it big with protoss. might want to adjust this part of your argument..
What are you talking about? Zergs planned to be Zerg two years ago because they realized that Zerg was easy? Or it's just a coincidence and suddenly ZvP became easy and now they're up and coming?
How about it's related to styles and right now Zergs are slightly better? This happens every six months. Remember when Protoss was raping, and the dragons, and Terran couldn't win anything? Remember when Boxer and his crew were raping? Remember before Savior when Zergs couldn't win shit? This always happens and people always freak out.
/thread
Really? You're not interested in why "styles" have shifted and what Protosses can maybe do about it?
EPT
