EPTZvP is imbalanced - Page 11
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ArvickHero
10387 Posts
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Heyoka
Katowice25012 Posts
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Skyze
Canada2324 Posts
I have a strat that I use that is very good against zerg, throws many zergs off, that Jangbi used afew times.. I dunno why more people don't use it, it still can't compete with earlygame macro zerg but it punishes them harshly fast enough before they can get a large army (not saying what it is though ;o watch jangbi reps lol) | ||
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
On September 25 2009 17:12 motbob wrote: [b]EDIT: Let's talk numbers. In the upcoming OSL prelims, the maps used are Destination, Heartbreak Ridge, and Return of the King. The combined stats for those three maps after early March, including "non-official" games like prelim games, is 60% ZvP. Outsider is 41-27 (60.3%). Neo Medusa is 34-25 (57.6%). Why is this matchup suddenly so drastically imbalanced? This thread should actually be titled "Neo Medusa, ROTK, and Destination are hard maps for P against zerg". Nothing more to it. Interesting how you mention heartbreak ridge, destination, and ROTK. Then completely ignore heartbreak ridge when giving stats because it doesnt fit your "theory" as well. The maps recently have been hard for P against zerg. This is a direct result of the massive success P had previously, not suprisingly, due to the maps. | ||
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PobTheCad
Australia893 Posts
On September 25 2009 17:32 baubo wrote: I kind of wish progamer protosses would play something other than standard FE->Starport/Citadel->dts. It's predictability allows zergs to counter against it way too easily. Personally, it's really frustrating to watch a PvZ as a protoss fan, because basically the zerg is the one that can do all the cute rushes and tricks for basically the first 10 minutes of the game. While the protoss has this one build that only works if everything the zerg tries fails. many players are robots nowdays once p gets a decent ball going that can be very hard for z to stop in my experience | ||
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Black Gun
Germany4482 Posts
imho the future of pvz lies in 1base timing attacks as part of the mix. its a metagame or lets rather say psychological thing: even if u do it only about every 5th game, the zerg fearing ur counterbuild to his 5hatch hydra will immediately make ur FE vs 5hatch hydra stronger because he has to waste more resources, time and focus on defending the possibility of the counterbuild or scouting it in time. that there is no working counter to 5 hatch hydra which zerg players would have to fear - to me this is the crucial point of the current shift of the pvz metagame in zergs favor. | ||
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meegrean
Thailand7699 Posts
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Sentient66
United States651 Posts
On September 25 2009 18:07 QibingZero wrote: Here's what happened: 1. Nal_ra retired 2. Zergs studied Bisu to death 3. Zergs overall control muta/scourge better than in the past 4. 4gate/2archon seems to have lost it's luster Now we have every protoss out there dying to hydra all-ins, or delaying psi storm way too long. They're also giving up air superiority on a whim, and cutting too many cannons. Maybe I'm wrong (as I haven't played protoss as my main race for quite some time), but PvZ isn't a matchup like ZvT where you have to survive on the bare minimum of defense in order to have the slight advantage in army size on the field. It's more like TvP where the terran moves to secure safe expansions with good defensive positions, and tries to win with a vastly superior army. Protoss has a difficult time doing anything to a maxed terran, just as zerg has trouble with a huge protoss ball of death. The problem in both situations for the 'underdog' of the matchup, is getting there. Hell, zergs were complaining right before this that the protoss late-game army is unstoppable, due to other recent results (which I will not spoil here). It's just smart play, though. There's nothing wrong with playing turtle-ish protoss when the zerg is being aggressive. Psi storm is there for a reason. What he said. I don't think that the matchup is TOO imbalanced, although I do think it is in slight favor of the zerg. I think it's mostly the recent trend of ZvP and PvZ build. The 3 hatch spire into 5 hatch hydra is just so versatile, and the Protoss FE build is just too predictable. | ||
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ShaperofDreams
Canada2492 Posts
That's like Effort and Calm (maybe fake Yellow somewhere?) all slumping and Jaedong getting kicked out of the MSL/OSL/ (+ one for GOM?)...and at the same time several protoss players rising up and kicking tail. There are swings...Have you looked at the TvZ chart in the Jaedong/savior comparison? | ||
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etch
Canada176 Posts
Any imbalance can be solved by modifying either the game or the maps. Since the player community can't alter the game itself (and blizzard seems to have their hands full atm), if an imbalance exists the only solution lies in a slight change in map making philosophy. | ||
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Balfazar
Australia483 Posts
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baubo
China3370 Posts
On September 26 2009 08:40 ArvickHero wrote: What is there to innovate with? All I can think of are Dark Archons, and those are limited in success, Storm is oftentimes far more effective than Maelstrom. I do remember a game where Horang2 tries to go Maelstrom instead of Storm, and he just gets rolled over by 3 hatch Hydra due to no storms being available, when it would have if he researched storm instead. Arbiters are not cost-effective, they are slow, cost a lot, and are really easily killed especially in PvZ. I don't think innovation requires new units. Just different BOs and twists. Jangbi destroyed Calm in the PL super-ace with a simple, simple disguised 3-gate +1 speedlot rush. Stork beat zergs several times on ROTK with simple 1-base build that did lots of damage early game. Movie beat Jaedong with a goon/reaver timing push. I think protosses just needs to use more of these so zergs aren't so comfortable macroing in the mid-game. | ||
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FaTe)SoL
Canada110 Posts
XD But ya, PvZ is getting rather predictable. | ||
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
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Probe.
United States877 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On September 26 2009 11:42 Xiphos wrote:Remember the days when Toss use to go +1 speedlot every game? Maybe they should continue doing that to counter 3 Hatch Muta into 5 Hatch Hydra. That won't work. 5-hatch-hydra was designed to be able to account for +1 speedlot (it wouldn't be very universally applicable otherwise). If Zerg doesn't scout a Stargate, he can simply play 3-hatch muta, a la Savior, which counters +1 speedlots. | ||
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ix
United Kingdom184 Posts
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PH
United States6173 Posts
I also love how people come in here talking about their experience at their low levels of play. Sorry guys, your opinion doesn't count in light of the better players out there. I'm a solid D and I know that for a fact. If P seems weaker than my Z, then it's because the P is a worse player than I am. If vice versa, it means the P is a better player than I am. It's NOT because there's any kind of imbalance in the game. Quite frankly, I only think that Ps are behind mechanically to Zs. Zs have stepped up their micro and their timings. Everything Ps normally do are becoming less effective than they once were. They need to change something up. I don't know what that is, and we'll wait and see. | ||
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Mobius
Canada1268 Posts
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