EPTZvP is imbalanced - Page 10
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Chill
Calgary26004 Posts
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lokiM
United States3407 Posts
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Jayson X
Switzerland2431 Posts
On September 26 2009 03:10 KizZBG wrote: Oh wow ZvP imba thread, are we back in 2006? :p so true. Remember all the threads and endless discussions. + Show Spoiler + "pvz is easy" "protoss should be changed" "even boxer said so" "savior is so fucking boring" "holy crap!" "wtf" "bisu build" "lolz bisu build" "that's not the bisu build" "yeah nal_ra did that years ago!" "bisu build" "kespa #1!!" "kespa #1 and #2!" "kespa #2 and #1!!"¨ "6 protoss in top 10!!!" Certain match ups favor certain styles on certain maps at certain times. That's why you don't see players switching races. Because you might be good with one race, but only exceptional with the other. If it is that "seriously imbalanced" why is Bisu still playing protoss, his pvz knowledge is highly praised by other progamers. Sometimes one match up fits like a glove and you can still, after 7 (read SEVEN) fucking years go 8-2 in your last zvp matches like july does (or 15-5). How many protoss do you know that can multitask as smoothly as Bisu? It is not the game. It is the player and the maps. Some have a profound knowledge of the match up, a desire to constantly stay ahead of trends, and others simply follow the line. | ||
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Zeridian
United States198 Posts
On September 25 2009 23:05 wiesel wrote: You guys play starcraft not warcraft3 don't forget it and grow some balls. | ||
motbob
United States12546 Posts
On September 26 2009 05:33 Chill wrote: Did you just ask why people innovate? My post should read "how." Cut me a break, man. I mean, honestly, of course I wasn't asking why people innovate. Either you think I'm a complete moron or you're intentionally jumping on the mistakes I make because you hate the whole concept of this thread. | ||
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ReKuN
United States15 Posts
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Rebuke[SkyNet]
18 Posts
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Licmyobelisk
Philippines3682 Posts
Can some one try using the following in a macro battle remove the zealots concentrate on goons/HT/DAs/Reavers and put a little love for arbiters mix them together and create a big ball of protoss. Now, use the DA's to kill maelstrom the ovies, use the HT's to storm em, no more seeing em goons eh? of course produce archons once energy is depleted from HT. So, there are no more detectors, most likely there will be a ton of defilers to plaguuu~ to see invi units or use swarm so goons will not have any damage. Possible that all scourges that try to kill the arbiters get sniped by thoses goons. I dunno, I wanna try it someday but I just can stop clicking on "z" when clicking gateways  .I think that it's not an innovative build and someone could have thought of it before me, just suggesting! | ||
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QibingZero
2611 Posts
The themes I mentioned in my earlier post were pretty much all based on the zerg being afraid. Zergs were afraid of whatever rA was going to pull out on them. Zergs were afraid of Bisu punishing their expansions. Zergs were afraid of 4gate 2archon ripping them apart. Currently, they don't seem to fear very much at all. | ||
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Muey
Finland149 Posts
On September 25 2009 18:50 sashkata wrote: I say it's just a phase. This kind of things are not new to starcraft. So what you're saying Toss will be on the comeback sometime 2014, since apparently the zerg/toss phase in terms of who's the dominant one goes around roughly on a five-to-two year circulation?  | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On September 26 2009 04:55 DreaM)XeRO wrote: I dont know. I always feel like my PvZ is the most solid of all my MU's. I look at it this way. The zerg can only do 2 things. Hydras or Mutals. And i have an arsenal of units on 2 base 2 gas that i can use to destroy it. But here's the catch. Protoss are so PREDICTABLE these days. Hell i played a ZvP on HBR just for shits and giggles today on the C- level and i absolutly STOMPED the Protoss. Protoss's nowadays need to BE MORE AGRESSIVE imo. Nevuk wrote a GREAT article showing the weaknesses that zerg have in their first 10 minutes. Exploit it. Use it to your advantage. SCOUT SCOUT SCOUT. There's a reason why Bisu is the best Protoss in the world. He can use the extended scouting information to his advantage and wrap his build orders around what he knows. I love love LOVE suiciding zlots. Early game 7 minute-ish i take 6-8 lots (+1 and speed) and i dash into the zerg's main and snipe as many tech buildings as i can. Den/Spire take priority followed by Evocham/Pool. You have NO clue how annoying that is for zerg. be unpredictable I wouldn't say thats unpredictable. A lot of protoss's seem to be doing it or at least the ones I happen to face. I would say you would have to be a lot more unpredictable then that. As far as zvp imbalanced I disagree but w/e. | ||
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Chill
Calgary26004 Posts
On September 26 2009 05:45 motbob wrote: My post should read "how." Cut me a break, man. I mean, honestly, of course I wasn't asking why people innovate. Either you think I'm a complete moron or you're intentionally jumping on the mistakes I make because you hate the whole concept of this thread. It's not hard to imagine you meaning why instead of how. | ||
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BluzMan
Russian Federation4235 Posts
Hell, even I want to watch some televised games right now. The marketing works. | ||
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inertinept
Bangladesh1195 Posts
On September 26 2009 06:14 Licmyobelisk wrote: I don't have the necessary skill to pull this off but.... Can some one try using the following in a macro battle remove the zealots concentrate on goons/HT/DAs/Reavers and put a little love for arbiters mix them together and create a big ball of protoss. Now, use the DA's to kill maelstrom the ovies, use the HT's to storm em, no more seeing em goons eh? of course produce archons once energy is depleted from HT. So, there are no more detectors, most likely there will be a ton of defilers to plaguuu~ to see invi units or use swarm so goons will not have any damage. Possible that all scourges that try to kill the arbiters get sniped by thoses goons. I dunno, I wanna try it someday but I just can stop clicking on "z" when clicking gateways .I think that it's not an innovative build and someone could have thought of it before me, just suggesting! I really hope your joking. Unless you plan on playing fastest possible map ice version SUPER $$ clan REAPER v.21 how do you plan on getting all that gas? | ||
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
On September 26 2009 06:14 Licmyobelisk wrote: I don't have the necessary skill to pull this off but.... Can some one try using the following in a macro battle remove the zealots concentrate on goons/HT/DAs/Reavers and put a little love for arbiters mix them together and create a big ball of protoss. Now, use the DA's to kill maelstrom the ovies, use the HT's to storm em, no more seeing em goons eh? of course produce archons once energy is depleted from HT. So, there are no more detectors, most likely there will be a ton of defilers to plaguuu~ to see invi units or use swarm so goons will not have any damage. Possible that all scourges that try to kill the arbiters get sniped by thoses goons. I dunno, I wanna try it someday but I just can stop clicking on "z" when clicking gateways .I think that it's not an innovative build and someone could have thought of it before me, just suggesting! And where exactly do you plan to get all that gas from? It's not like tosses get so many zealots because they think that they are better than archons. | ||
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Mykill
Canada3402 Posts
ZvP isn't imba its just that Z have been more innovative lately and P have been just sticking to the forgeFE | ||
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mahnini
United States6862 Posts
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l10f
United States3241 Posts
2. Reaver = most powerful ground attack after infested terrans. 3. HT->Archons = most effective unit in the game because you can STORM (see point 1) and then make imba archons that can kill 200 lings after the storms already killed 100. + Show Spoiler + Neither Zerg or Protoss are imba, it's just the maps + the current game trends. | ||
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Kentor
United States5784 Posts
On September 26 2009 07:47 l10f wrote: 1. Storm = most powerful spell/attack in the game after nuke. 2. Reaver = most powerful ground attack after infested terrans. 3. HT->Archons = most effective unit in the game because you can STORM (see point 1) and then make imba archons that can kill 200 lings after the storms already killed 100. + Show Spoiler + Neither Zerg or Protoss are imba, it's just the maps + the current game trends. are you kidding. mutas are like flying archons okay? and what's storm if there are 20000 lings + 15000 hydras? | ||
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craaaaack
479 Posts
What makes people think there is an imbalance is that Z has a lot more one-punch-getting-ahead-things in ZvP, same with T in TvZ and P in PvT. Starting with all cute all-ins/tricky early game stuff (hydrabreaks, lingsrunbys, 2hatchmuta etc), to midgame (muta snipe ht, hydra rapes the toss), and finally in the lategame, zergs biggest strenght imo (small cracklingdrops, nexussnipe, plague, ULTRALING POWAH). Theres less room for mistakes on the P side, and because today there are very very few players (  Bisu, Kal/JangBi/Stork on good days) which can avoid making those, P seems to be losing too easy. Another problem with protosses is that they fail to create those kind of one-punch-getting-ahead-things. Like Anytime said in an interview, todays Protosses rely to much on mechanics and forgot about timings. Watching a lot of Vods with non-bisu Ps you'll notice that they very often lack any kind of gameplan, its like pre-bisu Ps complained about how Z raped their zeal/goon army; now they know how to fast expand, tech to temps and sairs and.. what now?the most common thing is to add 3-5 gateways, mass some kind of units without any intention to hit a timing (moving out with 1-0 doesnt help that much vs hydraheavy builds, its not a timing Ps should look for), and get raped silly. Than we have our PvZ god Bisu, adding new timings and cute things pretty much all the time; dont tell me he only introduced the 2archon push, there were a lot more things, here some examples: moving out with 3zeals and a goon vs  EffOrt on hbr, distracting his attention to sneak in dts; once again moving out with the same force (dont know vs who), this time he delayed his templararchieves but instead got a somewhat earlier 2. gate, those first 3 zealots were followed by 4 more and speed kicked in as they reached the z; ONCE AGAIN Bisu moves out with 3zeals and one goon, this time he hid a robo and is going to drop 2 dts in Zs main while his small force distracts the Z.Things like this are changing timings and are screwing around with the Z thinking he knows whats going on. Ofc there are other players doing this ( GosI[Flying] in some of his recent games) but still the majority of Ps just keeps doing the same thing over and over, its like they need Bisu to rape all Zs with the 2Archon-timing attack to start copying it.Sadly innovative play doesn't spread at all around Ps, a great example would be SangHo whom i saw using DAs to stop templar sniping, it was part of his prepared bo and totally nullified the Zs attempt, he got ahead because of his DAs (and lost some time after because SangHo sucks and cant control his units). tl;dr toss players are dumb and start copying Bisu to late. | ||
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