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Reason why zvp so easy
zvp zerg strats
-hydra break
-all-in 3 hatch ling
-ling runby
-5 hatch hydra lurk
-muta to hydra
-lurk drop
-lurk & ling contain
-and they can start off with 2 fast expos, deny scouting, and lock protoss in his base without a single scouting unit until the first sair if speedling.
pvz p strats
-fe w/cannons
-2 gate
-1 gate
-has to sit in base blind for forever, then has to try to take a third without losing either it or his army to zerg. if he does this, many games he finds a zerg has outexpoed him and outmacroed him, and now has hive tech.
protoss need an innovative build that either allows for more mobility and power early game, or a strat that allows them to have a fighting chance late game. but since they often have to throw 8 cannons down at their third and three in their nat, which the zerg often doesnt engage until hive tech, they are way behind.
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On September 26 2009 12:51 Newguy wrote:
Reason why zvp so easy
zvp zerg strats
-hydra break
-all-in 3 hatch ling
-ling runby
-5 hatch hydra lurk
-muta to hydra
-lurk drop
-lurk & ling contain
-and they can start off with 2 fast expos, deny scouting, and lock protoss in his base without a single scouting unit until the first sair if speedling.
pvz p strats
-fe w/cannons
-2 gate
-1 gate
-has to sit in base blind for forever, then has to try to take a third without losing either it or his army to zerg. if he does this, many games he finds a zerg has outexpoed him and outmacroed him, and now has hive tech.
protoss need an innovative build that either allows for more mobility and power early game, or a strat that allows them to have a fighting chance late game. but since they often have to throw 8 cannons down at their third and three in their nat, which the zerg often doesnt engage until hive tech, they are way behind.
Yeah.. The way I think of it is that Zerg have an advantage because they get to react to what the protoss do.. Or do some cheese (all in speedlings, 2hatch hydra bust so on) So protoss always have to scout to make sure they're staying honest.
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China26351 Posts
On September 26 2009 12:53 Mobius wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2009 12:51 Newguy wrote:
Reason why zvp so easy
zvp zerg strats
-hydra break
-all-in 3 hatch ling
-ling runby
-5 hatch hydra lurk
-muta to hydra
-lurk drop
-lurk & ling contain
-and they can start off with 2 fast expos, deny scouting, and lock protoss in his base without a single scouting unit until the first sair if speedling.
pvz p strats
-fe w/cannons
-2 gate
-1 gate
-has to sit in base blind for forever, then has to try to take a third without losing either it or his army to zerg. if he does this, many games he finds a zerg has outexpoed him and outmacroed him, and now has hive tech.
protoss need an innovative build that either allows for more mobility and power early game, or a strat that allows them to have a fighting chance late game. but since they often have to throw 8 cannons down at their third and three in their nat, which the zerg often doesnt engage until hive tech, they are way behind. Yeah.. The way I think of it is that Zerg have an advantage because they get to react to what the protoss do.. Or do some cheese (all in speedlings, 2hatch hydra bust so on) So protoss always have to scout to make sure they're staying honest.
lool
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China26351 Posts
lol at both of the quoted posts
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10387 Posts
On September 26 2009 11:42 Xiphos wrote:
I think Protoss need someone like Anytime/Nal_ra/Garimto to innovate their tactics little bit more. They are after all the best race to one-base at. As Anytime said, Protoss these days are too into their mechanics and not timing. I like how Stork faced against July in Race War when he used Dark Archon to stop the Defiler to cast swarm, that was really smexy. Remember the days when Toss use to go +1 speedlot every game? Maybe they should continue doing that to counter 3 Hatch Muta into 5 Hatch Hydra. They have SO SO much spells that they can play around with. They need to use D-Web too, that spell is too overlook in PvZ, this way they can make sure Hydras don't shoot the Corsairs down.
Do you really think that toss will have the resource to build a Fleet Beacon, research D-Web, build up a sair fleet, and keep it alive long enough for them to be cost-effective? Not to mention, a good majority of the Protoss army is melee so D-Web can very easily be used against them. Protoss are running very tight on resources to keep up with Zergs, things need to be very cost-effective, otherwise its not worth pursuing.
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the way i see it
new maps -> different strategies (or more viable ones) -> no more imba (or some other race will get screwed)
6 dragons dominated, now zerg. Is it terran's turn next?
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l10f
United States3241 Posts
On September 26 2009 07:51 Kentor wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2009 07:47 l10f wrote:1. Storm = most powerful spell/attack in the game after nuke. 2. Reaver = most powerful ground attack after infested terrans. 3. HT->Archons = most effective unit in the game because you can STORM (see point 1) and then make imba archons that can kill 200 lings after the storms already killed 100. + Show Spoiler +Neither Zerg or Protoss are imba, it's just the maps + the current game trends. are you kidding. mutas are like flying archons okay? and what's storm if there are 20000 lings + 15000 hydras?
Yes I am kidding 
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Alright you guys caught us. ZvP is super fucking imba. ZvP is literally the easiest thing in the world. It's so easy that we Zergs will purposefully lose a lot of the games (approximately 50%) so as to not arouse the ignorant protoss. Every progame where a Protoss beat a Zerg was thrown away by the Zerg. We actually had to collectively pay savior 5 million dollars to lose to bisu in the MSL because protoss were starting to catch on. we even paid bisu a million dollars to do some stupid fucking build instead of normal dumb shit so that all the protoss players would think THAT was why and not suspect that savior threw it away.
I CANT LIVE THIS LIE ANY MORE
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I actually read all the posts in this thread. I am new here. Now i wanna stick something sharp in my eye.
My Wife For Aiur!
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United States10774 Posts
ZVP IS IMBA
IT'S DONE DEAL!
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On September 26 2009 12:51 Newguy wrote:
Reason why zvp so easy
zvp zerg strats
-hydra break
-all-in 3 hatch ling
-ling runby
-5 hatch hydra lurk
-muta to hydra
-lurk drop
-lurk & ling contain
-and they can start off with 2 fast expos, deny scouting, and lock protoss in his base without a single scouting unit until the first sair if speedling.
pvz p strats
-fe w/cannons
-2 gate
-1 gate
-has to sit in base blind for forever, then has to try to take a third without losing either it or his army to zerg. if he does this, many games he finds a zerg has outexpoed him and outmacroed him, and now has hive tech.
what you are listing is opening BOs, let me write it down the correct way for you:
ZvP Zerg OPENING BO
9pool
overpool
12hatch
PvZ Protoss (again) OPENING BO
FE
2gate
1gate
your basic argument is flawed. sure zerg can allin (which is like 99% of the builds you've listed) but so can the protoss. after a standard opening protoss can go +1 zealot/archon, sair/reaver, sair/dt etc. etc. WHILE having units that's great at harassing! (dt drop didnt work? how about a HT-drop at zergs 3rd or just run your speedlots by some sunks and take out all his drones that way).
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On September 26 2009 15:26 Julmust wrote:
your basic argument is flawed. sure zerg can allin (which is like 99% of the builds you've listed) but so can the protoss. after a standard opening protoss can go +1 zealot/archon, sair/reaver, sair/dt etc. etc. WHILE having units that's great at harassing! (dt drop didnt work? how about a HT-drop at zergs 3rd or just run your speedlots by some sunks and take out all his drones that way).
Surely you're not comparing the number of stuff a zerg can do in ZvP vs what the protoss can do in PvZ.
Assuming FE, the earliest the protoss can attack is either when sair/reaver is done, or when speedlots/archons are done. The number of things zergs can do before this occurs.
1, 2, or 3 hatch speedlings + variations(squeeze them through minerals, back entrances, etc.) May have various timings too.
2 or 3-hatch hydra (this isn't even all-in because the protoss may guess wrong and put up too many cannons, in which case zerg isn't even behind) Can also be easily followed up with drop tech.
2 or 3 hatch muta
2 or 3 hatch lurker
Drops of all kind, mainly lurkers
macro hard up to 4 bases, in which case zerg can just win through sheer numbers.
FE relies so heavily on static defense for much of the early game that zergs easily have by far more options when it comes to attack.
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On September 26 2009 16:07 baubo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2009 15:26 Julmust wrote:
your basic argument is flawed. sure zerg can allin (which is like 99% of the builds you've listed) but so can the protoss. after a standard opening protoss can go +1 zealot/archon, sair/reaver, sair/dt etc. etc. WHILE having units that's great at harassing! (dt drop didnt work? how about a HT-drop at zergs 3rd or just run your speedlots by some sunks and take out all his drones that way).
Surely you're not comparing the number of stuff a zerg can do in ZvP vs what the protoss can do in PvZ. Assuming FE, the earliest the protoss can attack is either when sair/reaver is done, or when speedlots/archons are done. The number of things zergs can do before this occurs. 1, 2, or 3 hatch speedlings + variations(squeeze them through minerals, back entrances, etc.) May have various timings too. 2 or 3-hatch hydra (this isn't even all-in because the protoss may guess wrong and put up too many cannons, in which case zerg isn't even behind) Can also be easily followed up with drop tech. 2 or 3 hatch muta 2 or 3 hatch lurker Drops of all kind, mainly lurkers macro hard up to 4 bases, in which case zerg can just win through sheer numbers. FE relies so heavily on static defense for much of the early game that zergs easily have by far more options when it comes to attack.
That's why people are suggesting 1/2 gate play more, so they don't just play static until the 10 minute mark or whatever. It's not like no protoss ever won with 1/2 gate, PvZ was stll 46% or so before Bisu vs sAviOr.
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On September 26 2009 16:16 Camlito wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2009 16:07 baubo wrote:On September 26 2009 15:26 Julmust wrote:
your basic argument is flawed. sure zerg can allin (which is like 99% of the builds you've listed) but so can the protoss. after a standard opening protoss can go +1 zealot/archon, sair/reaver, sair/dt etc. etc. WHILE having units that's great at harassing! (dt drop didnt work? how about a HT-drop at zergs 3rd or just run your speedlots by some sunks and take out all his drones that way).
Surely you're not comparing the number of stuff a zerg can do in ZvP vs what the protoss can do in PvZ. Assuming FE, the earliest the protoss can attack is either when sair/reaver is done, or when speedlots/archons are done. The number of things zergs can do before this occurs. 1, 2, or 3 hatch speedlings + variations(squeeze them through minerals, back entrances, etc.) May have various timings too. 2 or 3-hatch hydra (this isn't even all-in because the protoss may guess wrong and put up too many cannons, in which case zerg isn't even behind) Can also be easily followed up with drop tech. 2 or 3 hatch muta 2 or 3 hatch lurker Drops of all kind, mainly lurkers macro hard up to 4 bases, in which case zerg can just win through sheer numbers. FE relies so heavily on static defense for much of the early game that zergs easily have by far more options when it comes to attack. That's why people are suggesting 1/2 gate play more, so they don't just play static until the 10 minute mark or whatever. It's not like no protoss ever won with 1/2 gate, PvZ was stll 46% or so before Bisu vs sAviOr.
But pro gamers know how to adapt at a much higher level then they have before, they will run over any toss who 1/2 gates.
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On September 26 2009 16:16 Camlito wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2009 16:07 baubo wrote:On September 26 2009 15:26 Julmust wrote:
your basic argument is flawed. sure zerg can allin (which is like 99% of the builds you've listed) but so can the protoss. after a standard opening protoss can go +1 zealot/archon, sair/reaver, sair/dt etc. etc. WHILE having units that's great at harassing! (dt drop didnt work? how about a HT-drop at zergs 3rd or just run your speedlots by some sunks and take out all his drones that way).
Surely you're not comparing the number of stuff a zerg can do in ZvP vs what the protoss can do in PvZ. Assuming FE, the earliest the protoss can attack is either when sair/reaver is done, or when speedlots/archons are done. The number of things zergs can do before this occurs. 1, 2, or 3 hatch speedlings + variations(squeeze them through minerals, back entrances, etc.) May have various timings too. 2 or 3-hatch hydra (this isn't even all-in because the protoss may guess wrong and put up too many cannons, in which case zerg isn't even behind) Can also be easily followed up with drop tech. 2 or 3 hatch muta 2 or 3 hatch lurker Drops of all kind, mainly lurkers macro hard up to 4 bases, in which case zerg can just win through sheer numbers. FE relies so heavily on static defense for much of the early game that zergs easily have by far more options when it comes to attack. That's why people are suggesting 1/2 gate play more, so they don't just play static until the 10 minute mark or whatever. It's not like no protoss ever won with 1/2 gate, PvZ was stll 46% or so before Bisu vs sAviOr.
46% over how many games? Assuming the sample space is large, having only a 46% win rate is pretty bad.
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On September 26 2009 16:38 Sentenal wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2009 16:16 Camlito wrote:On September 26 2009 16:07 baubo wrote:On September 26 2009 15:26 Julmust wrote:
your basic argument is flawed. sure zerg can allin (which is like 99% of the builds you've listed) but so can the protoss. after a standard opening protoss can go +1 zealot/archon, sair/reaver, sair/dt etc. etc. WHILE having units that's great at harassing! (dt drop didnt work? how about a HT-drop at zergs 3rd or just run your speedlots by some sunks and take out all his drones that way).
Surely you're not comparing the number of stuff a zerg can do in ZvP vs what the protoss can do in PvZ. Assuming FE, the earliest the protoss can attack is either when sair/reaver is done, or when speedlots/archons are done. The number of things zergs can do before this occurs. 1, 2, or 3 hatch speedlings + variations(squeeze them through minerals, back entrances, etc.) May have various timings too. 2 or 3-hatch hydra (this isn't even all-in because the protoss may guess wrong and put up too many cannons, in which case zerg isn't even behind) Can also be easily followed up with drop tech. 2 or 3 hatch muta 2 or 3 hatch lurker Drops of all kind, mainly lurkers macro hard up to 4 bases, in which case zerg can just win through sheer numbers. FE relies so heavily on static defense for much of the early game that zergs easily have by far more options when it comes to attack. That's why people are suggesting 1/2 gate play more, so they don't just play static until the 10 minute mark or whatever. It's not like no protoss ever won with 1/2 gate, PvZ was stll 46% or so before Bisu vs sAviOr. 46% over how many games? Assuming the sample space is large, having only a 46% win rate is pretty bad.
46% is better than 0%?
edit: and that was when protoss only went 1/2 gate. If a protoss went 1/2 gate on a 4 player map or 3 player map where zerg might not scout first, it can strike them as surprised.
It's not like 1/2 gate completely sucks, it is just hard to execute, but it's not like zerg instantly wins over it -_-.
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On September 26 2009 16:32 Successful wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2009 16:16 Camlito wrote:On September 26 2009 16:07 baubo wrote:On September 26 2009 15:26 Julmust wrote:
your basic argument is flawed. sure zerg can allin (which is like 99% of the builds you've listed) but so can the protoss. after a standard opening protoss can go +1 zealot/archon, sair/reaver, sair/dt etc. etc. WHILE having units that's great at harassing! (dt drop didnt work? how about a HT-drop at zergs 3rd or just run your speedlots by some sunks and take out all his drones that way).
Surely you're not comparing the number of stuff a zerg can do in ZvP vs what the protoss can do in PvZ. Assuming FE, the earliest the protoss can attack is either when sair/reaver is done, or when speedlots/archons are done. The number of things zergs can do before this occurs. 1, 2, or 3 hatch speedlings + variations(squeeze them through minerals, back entrances, etc.) May have various timings too. 2 or 3-hatch hydra (this isn't even all-in because the protoss may guess wrong and put up too many cannons, in which case zerg isn't even behind) Can also be easily followed up with drop tech. 2 or 3 hatch muta 2 or 3 hatch lurker Drops of all kind, mainly lurkers macro hard up to 4 bases, in which case zerg can just win through sheer numbers. FE relies so heavily on static defense for much of the early game that zergs easily have by far more options when it comes to attack. That's why people are suggesting 1/2 gate play more, so they don't just play static until the 10 minute mark or whatever. It's not like no protoss ever won with 1/2 gate, PvZ was stll 46% or so before Bisu vs sAviOr. But pro gamers know how to adapt at a much higher level then they have before, they will run over any toss who 1/2 gates.
On the pro level, if the zerg is smart enough to know how to handle 1-gate or 2-gate, they usually will get an advantage. Slowlots and dragoons just aren't a match for early game zerg army, assuming the zerg sees it coming. Plus, zergling backstabs are impossible to handle without cannons.
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Fair enough, i just want to see 1/2 gate openings  .
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On September 26 2009 16:46 Camlito wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2009 16:38 Sentenal wrote:On September 26 2009 16:16 Camlito wrote:On September 26 2009 16:07 baubo wrote:On September 26 2009 15:26 Julmust wrote:
your basic argument is flawed. sure zerg can allin (which is like 99% of the builds you've listed) but so can the protoss. after a standard opening protoss can go +1 zealot/archon, sair/reaver, sair/dt etc. etc. WHILE having units that's great at harassing! (dt drop didnt work? how about a HT-drop at zergs 3rd or just run your speedlots by some sunks and take out all his drones that way).
Surely you're not comparing the number of stuff a zerg can do in ZvP vs what the protoss can do in PvZ. Assuming FE, the earliest the protoss can attack is either when sair/reaver is done, or when speedlots/archons are done. The number of things zergs can do before this occurs. 1, 2, or 3 hatch speedlings + variations(squeeze them through minerals, back entrances, etc.) May have various timings too. 2 or 3-hatch hydra (this isn't even all-in because the protoss may guess wrong and put up too many cannons, in which case zerg isn't even behind) Can also be easily followed up with drop tech. 2 or 3 hatch muta 2 or 3 hatch lurker Drops of all kind, mainly lurkers macro hard up to 4 bases, in which case zerg can just win through sheer numbers. FE relies so heavily on static defense for much of the early game that zergs easily have by far more options when it comes to attack. That's why people are suggesting 1/2 gate play more, so they don't just play static until the 10 minute mark or whatever. It's not like no protoss ever won with 1/2 gate, PvZ was stll 46% or so before Bisu vs sAviOr. 46% over how many games? Assuming the sample space is large, having only a 46% win rate is pretty bad. 46% is better than 0%? edit: and that was when protoss only went 1/2 gate. If a protoss went 1/2 gate on a 4 player map or 3 player map where zerg might not scout first, it can strike them as surprised. It's not like 1/2 gate completely sucks, it is just hard to execute, but it's not like zerg instantly wins over it -_-.
Oh really, I guess as long as Protoss doesn't have a 0% win rate vs Zerg, its acceptable.
1base builds are similar to different zerg builds that can catch a Protoss off guard/screw them. However, the big difference here is that Zerg has overlords, which help them scout what sort of 1base build the Protoss is doing rather easy.
I think the problem with PvZ right now is a combination of Protoss players sucking, and maps. Maps with 2 entrances to your base, or wide chokes, seem like they are designed pretty much just to make FEing Protosses more vulnerable, thus making the matchup alot harder.
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On September 26 2009 16:55 Camlito wrote:Fair enough, i just want to see 1/2 gate openings .
So do I. But it will probably require renovation before it can be a BO one can use on a regular basis. Unfortunately, I don't see anyone do it. Stork is probably the most innovative protoss today, but between anime, WOW, and constant bitching about how PvZ is impossible these days, he's probably not spending a lot of time brainstorming. :p
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EPT
