EPTBut once you become close to someone, it doesn't really matter. When you first get to know someone, you have to play the stupid game and keep a tally of what you've done and what they've done because you don't want to be used and you (well maybe not YOU) don't want to use someone. After you've both done dozens of things for each other though, you know each other really well and you're actually not thinking 'if I do this, she'll like me more' you're just thinking 'oh, she'll probably enjoy this.' ... You basically lose track of the tally and don't care anymore.
Chapter 1: Tipping the scales - Page 2
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Chef
10810 Posts
But once you become close to someone, it doesn't really matter. When you first get to know someone, you have to play the stupid game and keep a tally of what you've done and what they've done because you don't want to be used and you (well maybe not YOU) don't want to use someone. After you've both done dozens of things for each other though, you know each other really well and you're actually not thinking 'if I do this, she'll like me more' you're just thinking 'oh, she'll probably enjoy this.' ... You basically lose track of the tally and don't care anymore. | ||
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Talkative
18 Posts
Also, for those who haven't, you could try and read the "Introduction" part of my blog. It will shine a new light on why I'm writing all these things. On May 10 2009 01:26 Pseudo_Utopia wrote: Hmm, that's certainly a recurring theme in relationships. I think you're onto something with quantities of interest having to be not TOO different from one side to the other. Isn't it like any social interaction though? It can only flourish if both sides reach a sort of (usually unsaid) mutual consensus concerning the tone of the interaction, degrees of closeness, what is to be expected, etc. Yes, it is like most social interactions, true, but with one difference. Usually, in social interactions you don't push the other person away if you over-do it. If you're trying to hard before a real relationship even started, the other person will start feeling awkward and back away, even if you're good friends. During a relationship, his/her interest will slowly fade away. The thing is that, even though you're right, I feel that this affects romantic relationships a lot more than it does other kinds of social interactions. Probably because of the nature of the feelings involved. On May 10 2009 01:27 SixSongs wrote: This is an interesting point. Care to speculate a little more about it? and On May 10 2009 09:31 HeavOnEarth wrote: I would just like be a total faggot and say DUH sorry, had to do it ^^ Sixsongs: I can't really tell if you're being sarcastic or not. If you are, please read the Introduction, I know that this is "common sense" for some but I'm sure that others will also disagree with me (hoping, actually). If you're not being sarcastic, then don't worry, there are a lot of other "chapters" coming. HeavOnEarth: Yes. I agree, but as I just wrote, not everyone thinks this is always true, or even accurate. So bear with me.  On May 10 2009 01:37 micronesia wrote: Correlation? Possibly? Causation? I really don't think so, or at least mostly no. Elements of truth perhaps. Well, I'm not going to go too deep into this, but the basic idea here is that I don't really want to prove any of this. I'm just writing things based on my own limited experiences, so I'm being really subjective (can't honestly say that people can be otherwise when it comes to romantic relationships). So it's only natural that I drew my own lines, my own conclusions. I'm still hoping that I'll meet people that prove me wrong and mess up my beliefs, or at least give me a different perspective on things, but until then, it's only natural that my brain tends to go for causation rather than correlation. On May 10 2009 02:57 TommyG wrote: This isn't a new idea. This is the exact same thing as The Mystery Method, which basically started to question the age old mindset of being the "nice guy" to women. I never claimed that this is new  , and I have read about The Mystery Method, about the pick-up artist himself, and even watched his shows (both seasons!). At first I thought it was crap and laughed my ass off, but I kept watching and realized that most of the things he's saying and the way he approaches women are very valid. I thought it was just a dumb reality show but there is a lot of truth hidden underneath that.On May 10 2009 10:30 Chef wrote: I think this is true at the beginning of friendships and relationships (not because people want what they don't have though). But once you become close to someone, it doesn't really matter. When you first get to know someone, you have to play the stupid game and keep a tally of what you've done and what they've done because you don't want to be used and you (well maybe not YOU) don't want to use someone. After you've both done dozens of things for each other though, you know each other really well and you're actually not thinking 'if I do this, she'll like me more' you're just thinking 'oh, she'll probably enjoy this.' ... You basically lose track of the tally and don't care anymore. Yes, this is true for some relationships. The ones in which you both have about the same experience in relationships, and know (or think you know) what you want from your partner, and the ones that have been going on for quite a while (over 6 months or so). In these situations, the giving/caring level is very high indeed, so it's hard to tell which one cares more. But this is just another form of "balance" after all, and I can give you examples of relationships that lasted 3++ years where one of the partners thought everything was ok, and the other was trying to find ways to get out of it a.s.a.p. I probably will write about those too, later on. So thanks everyone for reading and posting. I hope I didn't bore you with walls of text. Next time I'll try to post sooner to avoid things like these. | ||
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HeavOnEarth
United States7087 Posts
Total turn-offs for pretty much every person. (I would imagine) | ||
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HeavOnEarth
United States7087 Posts
BALLER | ||
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Chef
10810 Posts
 Yes, this is true for some relationships. The ones in which you both have about the same experience in relationships, and know (or think you know) what you want from your partner, and the ones that have been going on for quite a while (over 6 months or so). In these situations, the giving/caring level is very high indeed, so it's hard to tell which one cares more. But this is just another form of "balance" after all, and I can give you examples of relationships that lasted 3++ years where one of the partners thought everything was ok, and the other was trying to find ways to get out of it a.s.a.p. I probably will write about those too, later on. Maybe someone will outwardly deny a relationship is over, but I think inside you always know when your partner isn't showing affection to you anymore. I don't really think it's an issue of balance.. I think that's a side effect of the actual issue. Which in my opinion, is that people need to feel like they have a mutual control of a friendship. If someone is coming on too fast, it feels awkward. I think it feels awkward because it's like they're taking charge and going into a deeper relationship than makes sense to you... I'm sure it's happened before that you just meet someone who is kind of desperate, and they want to do stuff with you ALL the time and do things that you normally don't do with people you've only known a few days... You don't know the person well enough to make a decision about whether you can be in this level of relationship with them or not, and so you push them away, or shut them down. In that way, you regain control at the cost of basically burning the bridge. To continue that metaphor for no reason... It's like they're trying to get into your castle via some kind of bridge, and you don't know if you can trust them that much or not, or if you'll appreciate their presence in your castle... So you break the bridge. Normal relationships you leave that bridge up, because the person isn't running across your bridge so fast you can't tell if they're friend or foe. You talk to them outside your castle and then invite them in when you trust them. Likewise, sometimes people tell you too much and it's like they're dragging you into their castle which you're not sure you'll like... Maybe it's not even that. Maybe it's just that people are used to certain formalities and levels of relationships. If someone skips a level it's uncomfortable and awkward because you haven't dealt with it before. Which means you don't like the person who's made you uncomfortable and awkward by doing this. Purely a distaste for the unfamiliar. This makes sense to me more than the main issue being 'balance' and 'wanting what you don't have' because people like to be needed and wanted. People need to feel attractive to be happy in a relationship. It's just when that attraction seems disingenuous or uncalled or excessive for that alarm bells go off and the person seems to be attracted to someone you're not (or characteristics that don't make you unique), so you run away. It's like someone says I LOVE YOU I LOVE YOU I LOVE YOU I LOVE YOU and you've only known them a few days... the reaction is "what... You don't even know me yet..." "what part of me are you loving so much? I haven't shown you anything about myself" "You must be crazy and obsessive rather than loving." It feels a bit like being a celebrity stalked by an unstable fan. | ||
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KlaCkoN
Sweden1654 Posts
The real world proved me wrong though. Also, chef makes a surprising amount of sense, I agree very much with his latest post. | ||
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Chef
10810 Posts
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Talkative
18 Posts
On May 11 2009 03:36 HeavOnEarth wrote: Also, i just realized you've had 24 GF's BALLER Not really, see, I've started "dating" when I was about 15 or so, that's when I had my first "serious" relationship which lasted for like 2.5 months and ended badly (for me), and now I'm 24. So that's less than 2 relationships per year on average, and if you consider the fact that most of them were <2 months in length, you'll realize that I've been single most of the time. On May 11 2009 04:03 Chef wrote: 24 failed or meaningless relationships Ouch, man. So you think people should hang on to the first relationship forever? (I know you don't, it was rhetorical, but still). Ok, I'll give you "failed", though it sounds harsh, but they sure as hell weren't meaningless. At least not to me. I've learned bits and pieces from every one of them, and though I would agree that the most lessons were taught to me in the longest relationship, I will have you know that some of the most important lessons came from shorter relationships too. I've also "fine-tuned" my taste in women, so when I meet new people, I can usually tell who I'll be able to have a significant relationship with, and who I could not. The problem is, there are oh so very few girls that fit my "tastes" now. I'm not saying that the first, or the first few relationships can't be "the one!" but I find it hard to believe that they are. There are many to discuss here, and I will get to everything some time in the future, but let's just say, if you really think that the relationship are meaningless, you're seriously wrong. As for the rest of your post (I'm not gonna quote, too long), I believe you're mostly right, but you're overlooking one aspect. What you're describing there is the most "noticeable" element of over-involvement, but you'll find that people are being pushed away by more subtle things too. I'm not saying that you're wrong, but you said that you know (at least subconsciously) when your partner is losing interest. That has been true in 95% of the relationship I've come in contact with (in one way or another, I like to stick my nose in my friend's private lives), but it's not true all the time. If you're "good with people" in general, then you should definitely notice, yes. But not everyone does. I should give you examples but really, those will lead to tons of other discussions. If I sound harsh or annoyed, let me assure you I am not. I more than welcome criticism or other theories, because, after all, that's why I'm writing this blog. Thank you. P.S.: On May 11 2009 06:18 Chef wrote: Nice guys finish last is just self-pitying non-sense Yes and no. I consider myself to be generally a nice guy. I've stayed friends with a lot of my ex-gfs, and I even have a few really good friends from those. But the "nice guy" image you see in movies, where the dorky shy kid gets the supermodel girlfriend will never happen in real life, because of the way people grow up. I'll probably write about this too, in more detail, because as I read this is just sounds wrong, but there are so many things in my head right now that I can't really express myself properly, sorry. Edit: also ![[image loading]](http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/correlation.png) | ||
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HeavOnEarth
United States7087 Posts
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Chef
10810 Posts
On May 11 2009 20:43 Talkative wrote: Not really, see, I've started "dating" when I was about 15 or so, that's when I had my first "serious" relationship which lasted for like 2.5 months and ended badly (for me), and now I'm 24. So that's less than 2 relationships per year on average, and if you consider the fact that most of them were <2 months in length, you'll realize that I've been single most of the time. Ouch, man. So you think people should hang on to the first relationship forever? (I know you don't, it was rhetorical, but still). Ok, I'll give you "failed", though it sounds harsh, but they sure as hell weren't meaningless. At least not to me. I've learned bits and pieces from every one of them, and though I would agree that the most lessons were taught to me in the longest relationship, I will have you know that some of the most important lessons came from shorter relationships too. I've also "fine-tuned" my taste in women, so when I meet new people, I can usually tell who I'll be able to have a significant relationship with, and who I could not. The problem is, there are oh so very few girls that fit my "tastes" now. I'm not saying that the first, or the first few relationships can't be "the one!" but I find it hard to believe that they are. There are many to discuss here, and I will get to everything some time in the future, but let's just say, if you really think that the relationship are meaningless, you're seriously wrong. As for the rest of your post (I'm not gonna quote, too long), I believe you're mostly right, but you're overlooking one aspect. What you're describing there is the most "noticeable" element of over-involvement, but you'll find that people are being pushed away by more subtle things too. I'm not saying that you're wrong, but you said that you know (at least subconsciously) when your partner is losing interest. That has been true in 95% of the relationship I've come in contact with (in one way or another, I like to stick my nose in my friend's private lives), but it's not true all the time. If you're "good with people" in general, then you should definitely notice, yes. But not everyone does. I should give you examples but really, those will lead to tons of other discussions. If I sound harsh or annoyed, let me assure you I am not. I more than welcome criticism or other theories, because, after all, that's why I'm writing this blog. Thank you. P.S.: Yes and no. I consider myself to be generally a nice guy. I've stayed friends with a lot of my ex-gfs, and I even have a few really good friends from those. But the "nice guy" image you see in movies, where the dorky shy kid gets the supermodel girlfriend will never happen in real life, because of the way people grow up. I'll probably write about this too, in more detail, because as I read this is just sounds wrong, but there are so many things in my head right now that I can't really express myself properly, sorry. Edit: also Yes, but how often is shy really the same thing as nice? Shy is more often self-loathing and putting oneself down. A shy person could be nice... Or a shy person could be masturbating in the basement all day long. Being nice usually just means someone is considerate and caring. When someone says 'nice guys finish last' they're picturing some asshole getting the girl and generally treating her badly. They're thinking of one example where a girl they liked dated a guy for a week that was a jerk. Or maybe a particularly drawn out (but not at all typical) abusive relationship. What I'm getting at, I guess, is that the 'nice guy' image you see in movies doesn't really seem like a nice guy at all to me. It just seems like someone incredibly envious, with no confidence. Nice isn't the same as loser. Shy isn't necessarily the same as loser either, but the movie image of 'nice' is definitely 100% loser. It's like a euphemism for unattractive that some women use so that crazy nerd doesn't do something drastic. I think my point is... Being nice isn't what's holding someone back. It's other factors. | ||
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HeavOnEarth
United States7087 Posts
However, I think , too many nice guys are also shy(in the loser sense of the word) or have unresolved issues that arise later on in the relationship Woman definitely fray away from that But it's not really hard to prove you're outgoing and not a loser. However, you can't be crazy outgoing AKA... showing too much interest, because that is one of those loser traits , even if they weren't intended <_< we so need a girl in this thread. :O So it's only natural that I drew my own lines, my own conclusions. I'm still hoping that I'll meet people that prove me wrong and mess up my beliefs, or at least give me a different perspective on things, but until then, it's only natural that my brain tends to go for causation rather than correlation. I know you're referring to a girl to change your mind but, I've had my mind changed a lot on TL actually. Maybe we can help you with that | ||
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Chef
10810 Posts
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Talkative
18 Posts
And yes, I know what you mean about the nice guy thing, but most people who are shy and envious think that they are indeed nice guys and that they'd treat girls better and so on, which is not true. I dare say that because I was once like that too, and I have a lot of friends who still do that. Girls should be treated like equals most of the times, and lots of guys don't understand that. So yes, I agree with what you're saying, I only wanted to add that movies and popular culture seem to miss that point entirely, for some reason. To HeavOnEarth: Yes, well, that's why I'm writing on Tl.net. Once I get like 2-3 chapters going, I'll show my blog to some girls and see what they think. I agree that we need a girls opinions here too, but it's mainly a "journal" about my believes and views on relationships, so it will probably hit closer to home to guys than it would to girls. But if you find some who are willing to read/reply, be my guest. I'm gonna start on Chapter 2 now... | ||
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