I wanted to start with something called “starting a relationship” but I can’t really approach this subject without going deep into “giving and taking” territory. I know it’s a rather barbarian way to look at it, but from my experience, there’s a golden rule that applies to ALL my past relationships:
The more you show you like someone, the less they will like you, and vice-versa.
Of course, this only applies in romantic relationships, and if you do not agree, then it’s probably because you achieved a good balance between how much you like/do for your partner and how much they like/do for you, which is great! But most of the times it’s not like that. In 90% of relationships, one person is more involved than the other. And this thing can abruptly change without even the slightest of warning.
What exactly do I mean by this? Well, let’s start with some statistics: Let’s say I had 24 relationships. In 20 of them, the girl was more interested in me than I was in her. Most of them ended up after a short period of time, because I’d break up with them, or they’d break up with me because of lack of interest on my part. The 4 others, I was more interested in them than they were in me. One of those for lasted for 2 years, with a lot of effort in my part to not let all my feelings surface too much. 1 of them, I got rejected early on, and it stayed like that until this day, and the other two, I got rejected at first, but then, as time passed, and my feelings changed, their feelings changed also. The less I showed I cared about them, the more they cared about me, which was just disturbing to watch: The girls that I’ve chased after with so much glee, and have struck me down without hesitating were now asking me out, and asking to spend more time with me. I was horrified.
Not to mention that you can observe these kind of differences even with small changes during a relationship. If you start acting a bit less-caring, you’ll probably get a positive response. Why? Because we all want what we can’t have. We don’t like having things served to us on a platter. That’s why. Or at least I think that’s why, because any other explanation would involve something else than “human nature” so it would mean that there’s something wrong with ME, and we just can’t have that. (kidding) So to sum up this first part… I’m not saying that you shouldn’t show their affection to someone else, by all means, do it, but don’t show a lot more affection than they do, because if that’s the case, you might be pushing them away. I know that this works on me, I always lose interest in girls that care too much for me. I’m a bastard, I know, I wish I was different but I can’t be helped. I want to work for my relationship, to MAKE her like me, want me, love me, not to just let her have me…
There is so much more that can be said regarding this, but my goal is not to just create walls of text, so I’ll be poking at this subject as time goes on, don’t worry.
Hmm, that's certainly a recurring theme in relationships. I think you're onto something with quantities of interest having to be not TOO different from one side to the other. Isn't it like any social interaction though? It can only flourish if both sides reach a sort of (usually unsaid) mutual consensus concerning the tone of the interaction, degrees of closeness, what is to be expected, etc.
I find the comment on wanting to work for what you get to be compelling as well. Obviously if you receive affection without 'deserving' it you will feel patronized or, more likely, that the standards of the other are low, which makes their affection much less meaningful. It's like if someone is always agreeing with what is said around them; their opinion just starts to lose credibility and value.
Hm, I find this funny cause this applies to me in my life right now haha. Like, I've liked this girl for a few weeks (it's a lot more complicated than that but we'll just go with that) and asked her out last night. Well she said yes and dunno, like it just feels weird. I think I need some sort of challenge in my life cause like it doesn't feel right. Although I'm not gonna do anything dumb lol, I'm just hoping this feeling flies over soon
When people's intentions are fixed on us it inspires a prey reflex of eschewing their attention. It's not strictly correct to say that caring less = more attention...but it is indeed quite often the case that being a little more self-controlled does a lot to encourage a girl.
On May 10 2009 01:37 micronesia wrote: Correlation? Possibly? Causation? I really don't think so, or at least mostly no.
Elements of truth perhaps.
Haha stats jargon!
The op was kinda confusing at first but I'm gonna try to not care and then see if more girls like me! But what is the line between caring and not caring? You can still talk to them and not care, right?
On May 10 2009 01:37 micronesia wrote: Correlation? Possibly? Causation? I really don't think so, or at least mostly no.
Elements of truth perhaps.
Haha stats jargon!
I've never taken/studied statistics to be honest... but whenever conducting a study you have to pay close attention to when you are finding correlations, and why they do not necessarily imply the connection you were looking for.
On May 10 2009 01:16 Talkative wrote: If you start acting a bit less-caring, you’ll probably get a positive response. Why? Because we all want what we can’t have. We don’t like having things served to us on a platter. That’s why. Or at least I think that’s why, because any other explanation would involve something else than “human nature” so it would mean that there’s something wrong with ME, and we just can’t have that. (kidding)
I think the reason why showing less care for a girl means they'll like you more is because girls want a partner that is desirable. A desirable man has a pick of the women, and therefore if he doesn't care about a particular girl it's because he can get equal or better than that so there's no need making any effort on his part. This argument is slightly circular in its logic though, like groupthink, but I still think it makes sense.
You've got to look at the reason why people don't like things served to them on a platter. Normally because free things usually aren't good, and it's this line of thinking that I guess was programmed into our brain thousands of years ago.
If you're being needy (taking it to the extreme of caring more for a girl than she cares for you) then it shows that you have little value as you apparently can't get a relationship with anyone else.
I think it works differently for guys and girls as well, when a girl cares for a guy more than he cares for her, it's not as big a deal as the other way round. Again I think this can be explained by how our ancestors lived in their societies tens of thousands of years ago.
This isn't a new idea. This is the exact same thing as The Mystery Method, which basically started to question the age old mindset of being the "nice guy" to women.
On May 10 2009 01:37 micronesia wrote: Correlation? Possibly? Causation? I really don't think so, or at least mostly no.
Elements of truth perhaps.
Haha stats jargon!
I've never taken/studied statistics to be honest... but whenever conducting a study you have to pay close attention to when you are finding correlations, and why they do not necessarily imply the connection you were looking for.
Yep, alot of things are possibilities and you simply can't assume relationships are causations. The only one I know that the teacher told me was smoking and lung cancer but I'm doubtful of even that
On May 10 2009 01:37 micronesia wrote: Correlation? Possibly? Causation? I really don't think so, or at least mostly no.
Elements of truth perhaps.
Haha stats jargon!
I've never taken/studied statistics to be honest... but whenever conducting a study you have to pay close attention to when you are finding correlations, and why they do not necessarily imply the connection you were looking for.
Yep, alot of things are possibilities and you simply can't assume relationships are causations. The only one I know that the teacher told me was smoking and lung cancer but I'm doubtful of even that
This doesn't make sense to me...
You mean, you want an example of proven causation? I think from a technical standpoint it's difficult to damn near impossible to prove that there is 100% causation... but you can get your degree of certainty high enough that any doubt is negligible. I doubt it's that hard to find examples of this type of case.
I think this is true at the beginning of friendships and relationships (not because people want what they don't have though).
But once you become close to someone, it doesn't really matter. When you first get to know someone, you have to play the stupid game and keep a tally of what you've done and what they've done because you don't want to be used and you (well maybe not YOU) don't want to use someone. After you've both done dozens of things for each other though, you know each other really well and you're actually not thinking 'if I do this, she'll like me more' you're just thinking 'oh, she'll probably enjoy this.' ... You basically lose track of the tally and don't care anymore.
Ok I'm going to try and do a mega-post to answer to most of the questions/replies here. If I miss any of them, sorry. Also, for those who haven't, you could try and read the "Introduction" part of my blog. It will shine a new light on why I'm writing all these things.
On May 10 2009 01:26 Pseudo_Utopia wrote: Hmm, that's certainly a recurring theme in relationships. I think you're onto something with quantities of interest having to be not TOO different from one side to the other. Isn't it like any social interaction though? It can only flourish if both sides reach a sort of (usually unsaid) mutual consensus concerning the tone of the interaction, degrees of closeness, what is to be expected, etc.
Yes, it is like most social interactions, true, but with one difference. Usually, in social interactions you don't push the other person away if you over-do it. If you're trying to hard before a real relationship even started, the other person will start feeling awkward and back away, even if you're good friends. During a relationship, his/her interest will slowly fade away. The thing is that, even though you're right, I feel that this affects romantic relationships a lot more than it does other kinds of social interactions. Probably because of the nature of the feelings involved.
On May 10 2009 01:27 SixSongs wrote: This is an interesting point. Care to speculate a little more about it?
and
On May 10 2009 09:31 HeavOnEarth wrote: I would just like be a total faggot and say DUH sorry, had to do it ^^
Sixsongs: I can't really tell if you're being sarcastic or not. If you are, please read the Introduction, I know that this is "common sense" for some but I'm sure that others will also disagree with me (hoping, actually). If you're not being sarcastic, then don't worry, there are a lot of other "chapters" coming. HeavOnEarth: Yes. I agree, but as I just wrote, not everyone thinks this is always true, or even accurate. So bear with me.
On May 10 2009 01:37 micronesia wrote: Correlation? Possibly? Causation? I really don't think so, or at least mostly no.
Elements of truth perhaps.
Well, I'm not going to go too deep into this, but the basic idea here is that I don't really want to prove any of this. I'm just writing things based on my own limited experiences, so I'm being really subjective (can't honestly say that people can be otherwise when it comes to romantic relationships). So it's only natural that I drew my own lines, my own conclusions. I'm still hoping that I'll meet people that prove me wrong and mess up my beliefs, or at least give me a different perspective on things, but until then, it's only natural that my brain tends to go for causation rather than correlation.
On May 10 2009 02:57 TommyG wrote: This isn't a new idea. This is the exact same thing as The Mystery Method, which basically started to question the age old mindset of being the "nice guy" to women.
I never claimed that this is new , and I have read about The Mystery Method, about the pick-up artist himself, and even watched his shows (both seasons!). At first I thought it was crap and laughed my ass off, but I kept watching and realized that most of the things he's saying and the way he approaches women are very valid. I thought it was just a dumb reality show but there is a lot of truth hidden underneath that.
On May 10 2009 10:30 Chef wrote: I think this is true at the beginning of friendships and relationships (not because people want what they don't have though).
But once you become close to someone, it doesn't really matter. When you first get to know someone, you have to play the stupid game and keep a tally of what you've done and what they've done because you don't want to be used and you (well maybe not YOU) don't want to use someone. After you've both done dozens of things for each other though, you know each other really well and you're actually not thinking 'if I do this, she'll like me more' you're just thinking 'oh, she'll probably enjoy this.' ... You basically lose track of the tally and don't care anymore.
Yes, this is true for some relationships. The ones in which you both have about the same experience in relationships, and know (or think you know) what you want from your partner, and the ones that have been going on for quite a while (over 6 months or so). In these situations, the giving/caring level is very high indeed, so it's hard to tell which one cares more. But this is just another form of "balance" after all, and I can give you examples of relationships that lasted 3++ years where one of the partners thought everything was ok, and the other was trying to find ways to get out of it a.s.a.p. I probably will write about those too, later on.
So thanks everyone for reading and posting. I hope I didn't bore you with walls of text. Next time I'll try to post sooner to avoid things like these.
Yes, this is true for some relationships. The ones in which you both have about the same experience in relationships, and know (or think you know) what you want from your partner, and the ones that have been going on for quite a while (over 6 months or so). In these situations, the giving/caring level is very high indeed, so it's hard to tell which one cares more. But this is just another form of "balance" after all, and I can give you examples of relationships that lasted 3++ years where one of the partners thought everything was ok, and the other was trying to find ways to get out of it a.s.a.p. I probably will write about those too, later on.
Maybe someone will outwardly deny a relationship is over, but I think inside you always know when your partner isn't showing affection to you anymore. I don't really think it's an issue of balance.. I think that's a side effect of the actual issue. Which in my opinion, is that people need to feel like they have a mutual control of a friendship. If someone is coming on too fast, it feels awkward. I think it feels awkward because it's like they're taking charge and going into a deeper relationship than makes sense to you... I'm sure it's happened before that you just meet someone who is kind of desperate, and they want to do stuff with you ALL the time and do things that you normally don't do with people you've only known a few days... You don't know the person well enough to make a decision about whether you can be in this level of relationship with them or not, and so you push them away, or shut them down. In that way, you regain control at the cost of basically burning the bridge. To continue that metaphor for no reason... It's like they're trying to get into your castle via some kind of bridge, and you don't know if you can trust them that much or not, or if you'll appreciate their presence in your castle... So you break the bridge. Normal relationships you leave that bridge up, because the person isn't running across your bridge so fast you can't tell if they're friend or foe. You talk to them outside your castle and then invite them in when you trust them. Likewise, sometimes people tell you too much and it's like they're dragging you into their castle which you're not sure you'll like...
Maybe it's not even that. Maybe it's just that people are used to certain formalities and levels of relationships. If someone skips a level it's uncomfortable and awkward because you haven't dealt with it before. Which means you don't like the person who's made you uncomfortable and awkward by doing this. Purely a distaste for the unfamiliar. This makes sense to me more than the main issue being 'balance' and 'wanting what you don't have' because people like to be needed and wanted. People need to feel attractive to be happy in a relationship. It's just when that attraction seems disingenuous or uncalled or excessive for that alarm bells go off and the person seems to be attracted to someone you're not (or characteristics that don't make you unique), so you run away. It's like someone says I LOVE YOU I LOVE YOU I LOVE YOU I LOVE YOU and you've only known them a few days... the reaction is "what... You don't even know me yet..." "what part of me are you loving so much? I haven't shown you anything about myself" "You must be crazy and obsessive rather than loving." It feels a bit like being a celebrity stalked by an unstable fan.
I used to think that nice guys finish last and all that yazz, (most likely a side effect of growing up on teamliquid =p ) The real world proved me wrong though. Also, chef makes a surprising amount of sense, I agree very much with his latest post.
On May 11 2009 03:36 HeavOnEarth wrote: Also, i just realized you've had 24 GF's BALLER
Not really, see, I've started "dating" when I was about 15 or so, that's when I had my first "serious" relationship which lasted for like 2.5 months and ended badly (for me), and now I'm 24. So that's less than 2 relationships per year on average, and if you consider the fact that most of them were <2 months in length, you'll realize that I've been single most of the time.
On May 11 2009 04:03 Chef wrote: 24 failed or meaningless relationships
Ouch, man. So you think people should hang on to the first relationship forever? (I know you don't, it was rhetorical, but still). Ok, I'll give you "failed", though it sounds harsh, but they sure as hell weren't meaningless. At least not to me. I've learned bits and pieces from every one of them, and though I would agree that the most lessons were taught to me in the longest relationship, I will have you know that some of the most important lessons came from shorter relationships too. I've also "fine-tuned" my taste in women, so when I meet new people, I can usually tell who I'll be able to have a significant relationship with, and who I could not. The problem is, there are oh so very few girls that fit my "tastes" now. I'm not saying that the first, or the first few relationships can't be "the one!" but I find it hard to believe that they are. There are many to discuss here, and I will get to everything some time in the future, but let's just say, if you really think that the relationship are meaningless, you're seriously wrong.
As for the rest of your post (I'm not gonna quote, too long), I believe you're mostly right, but you're overlooking one aspect. What you're describing there is the most "noticeable" element of over-involvement, but you'll find that people are being pushed away by more subtle things too. I'm not saying that you're wrong, but you said that you know (at least subconsciously) when your partner is losing interest. That has been true in 95% of the relationship I've come in contact with (in one way or another, I like to stick my nose in my friend's private lives), but it's not true all the time. If you're "good with people" in general, then you should definitely notice, yes. But not everyone does. I should give you examples but really, those will lead to tons of other discussions.
If I sound harsh or annoyed, let me assure you I am not. I more than welcome criticism or other theories, because, after all, that's why I'm writing this blog.
Thank you.
P.S.:
On May 11 2009 06:18 Chef wrote: Nice guys finish last is just self-pitying non-sense
Yes and no. I consider myself to be generally a nice guy. I've stayed friends with a lot of my ex-gfs, and I even have a few really good friends from those. But the "nice guy" image you see in movies, where the dorky shy kid gets the supermodel girlfriend will never happen in real life, because of the way people grow up. I'll probably write about this too, in more detail, because as I read this is just sounds wrong, but there are so many things in my head right now that I can't really express myself properly, sorry.
On May 11 2009 03:36 HeavOnEarth wrote: Also, i just realized you've had 24 GF's BALLER
Not really, see, I've started "dating" when I was about 15 or so, that's when I had my first "serious" relationship which lasted for like 2.5 months and ended badly (for me), and now I'm 24. So that's less than 2 relationships per year on average, and if you consider the fact that most of them were <2 months in length, you'll realize that I've been single most of the time.
On May 11 2009 04:03 Chef wrote: 24 failed or meaningless relationships
Ouch, man. So you think people should hang on to the first relationship forever? (I know you don't, it was rhetorical, but still). Ok, I'll give you "failed", though it sounds harsh, but they sure as hell weren't meaningless. At least not to me. I've learned bits and pieces from every one of them, and though I would agree that the most lessons were taught to me in the longest relationship, I will have you know that some of the most important lessons came from shorter relationships too. I've also "fine-tuned" my taste in women, so when I meet new people, I can usually tell who I'll be able to have a significant relationship with, and who I could not. The problem is, there are oh so very few girls that fit my "tastes" now. I'm not saying that the first, or the first few relationships can't be "the one!" but I find it hard to believe that they are. There are many to discuss here, and I will get to everything some time in the future, but let's just say, if you really think that the relationship are meaningless, you're seriously wrong.
As for the rest of your post (I'm not gonna quote, too long), I believe you're mostly right, but you're overlooking one aspect. What you're describing there is the most "noticeable" element of over-involvement, but you'll find that people are being pushed away by more subtle things too. I'm not saying that you're wrong, but you said that you know (at least subconsciously) when your partner is losing interest. That has been true in 95% of the relationship I've come in contact with (in one way or another, I like to stick my nose in my friend's private lives), but it's not true all the time. If you're "good with people" in general, then you should definitely notice, yes. But not everyone does. I should give you examples but really, those will lead to tons of other discussions.
If I sound harsh or annoyed, let me assure you I am not. I more than welcome criticism or other theories, because, after all, that's why I'm writing this blog.
On May 11 2009 06:18 Chef wrote: Nice guys finish last is just self-pitying non-sense
Yes and no. I consider myself to be generally a nice guy. I've stayed friends with a lot of my ex-gfs, and I even have a few really good friends from those. But the "nice guy" image you see in movies, where the dorky shy kid gets the supermodel girlfriend will never happen in real life, because of the way people grow up. I'll probably write about this too, in more detail, because as I read this is just sounds wrong, but there are so many things in my head right now that I can't really express myself properly, sorry.
Edit: also
Yes, but how often is shy really the same thing as nice? Shy is more often self-loathing and putting oneself down. A shy person could be nice... Or a shy person could be masturbating in the basement all day long.
Being nice usually just means someone is considerate and caring. When someone says 'nice guys finish last' they're picturing some asshole getting the girl and generally treating her badly. They're thinking of one example where a girl they liked dated a guy for a week that was a jerk. Or maybe a particularly drawn out (but not at all typical) abusive relationship.
What I'm getting at, I guess, is that the 'nice guy' image you see in movies doesn't really seem like a nice guy at all to me. It just seems like someone incredibly envious, with no confidence. Nice isn't the same as loser. Shy isn't necessarily the same as loser either, but the movie image of 'nice' is definitely 100% loser. It's like a euphemism for unattractive that some women use so that crazy nerd doesn't do something drastic.
I think my point is... Being nice isn't what's holding someone back. It's other factors.
I think being nice is a great if not deciding factor for what woman see in men
However, I think , too many nice guys are also shy(in the loser sense of the word) or have unresolved issues that arise later on in the relationship Woman definitely fray away from that But it's not really hard to prove you're outgoing and not a loser. However, you can't be crazy outgoing AKA... showing too much interest, because that is one of those loser traits , even if they weren't intended <_<
we so need a girl in this thread. :O
So it's only natural that I drew my own lines, my own conclusions. I'm still hoping that I'll meet people that prove me wrong and mess up my beliefs, or at least give me a different perspective on things, but until then, it's only natural that my brain tends to go for causation rather than correlation.
I know you're referring to a girl to change your mind but, I've had my mind changed a lot on TL actually. Maybe we can help you with that
And yes, I know what you mean about the nice guy thing, but most people who are shy and envious think that they are indeed nice guys and that they'd treat girls better and so on, which is not true. I dare say that because I was once like that too, and I have a lot of friends who still do that. Girls should be treated like equals most of the times, and lots of guys don't understand that. So yes, I agree with what you're saying, I only wanted to add that movies and popular culture seem to miss that point entirely, for some reason.
To HeavOnEarth: Yes, well, that's why I'm writing on Tl.net. Once I get like 2-3 chapters going, I'll show my blog to some girls and see what they think. I agree that we need a girls opinions here too, but it's mainly a "journal" about my believes and views on relationships, so it will probably hit closer to home to guys than it would to girls. But if you find some who are willing to read/reply, be my guest.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/correlation.png)
