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On September 13 2024 20:08 Elroi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2024 10:33 Magic Powers wrote:
I'd like to point out we're still at the blowing something completely out of proportion part. The crime that "migrants bring" (they don't) is committed by a small fraction. When compared to the general crime rate of the population (adjusted for socio-economic factors), in most cases the migrant crime rate practically becomes meaningless. If you look at all the countries in Europe where there has been significant immigration from third world countries over the last 30 years, crime rates have in fact skyrocketed. Also, who cares if the difference disappears if you adjust for socio-economic factors? (isn't that a circular argument to being with? Being an immigrant surely is a "social" factor?) "You now run a 5 times higher risk of being shot or assaulted than 10 years ago [roughly the numbers for Sweden], but don't worry that difference disappears if you adjust for socio-economic factors."
I live in one of the most diverse cities in the world and the crime rate here is completely unbothered. In fact I'd say it has gone down over the last few decades.
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On September 13 2024 20:08 Elroi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2024 10:33 Magic Powers wrote:
I'd like to point out we're still at the blowing something completely out of proportion part. The crime that "migrants bring" (they don't) is committed by a small fraction. When compared to the general crime rate of the population (adjusted for socio-economic factors), in most cases the migrant crime rate practically becomes meaningless. If you look at all the countries in Europe where there has been significant immigration from third world countries over the last 30 years, crime rates have in fact skyrocketed. Also, who the fuck cares if the difference disappears if you adjust for socio-economic factors? "You now run a 5 times higher risk of being shot or assaulted than 10 years ago [roughly the numbers for Sweden], but don't worry that difference disappears if you count socio-economic factors."
This is a U.S. thread, and illegal immigrants commit crimes at a significantly lower rate than Americans. Europe is super cool for a bunch of different reasons, but crime skyrocketing there doesn't mean crime is increasing here at all.
"An NIJ-funded study examining data from the Texas Department of Public Safety estimated the rate at which undocumented immigrants are arrested for committing crimes. The study found that undocumented immigrants are arrested at less than half the rate of native-born U.S. citizens for violent and drug crimes and a quarter the rate of native-born citizens for property crimes."
https://nij.ojp.gov/topics/articles/undocumented-immigrant-offending-rate-lower-us-born-citizen-rate
"Some of the most extensive research comes from Stanford University. Economist Ran Abramitzky found that since the 1960s, immigrants are 60% less likely to be incarcerated than U.S.-born people.
There is also state level research, that shows similar results: researchers at the CATO Institute, a libertarian think tank, looked into Texas in 2019. They found that undocumented immigrants were 37.1% less likely to be convicted of a crime.
Beyond incarceration rates, research also shows that there is no correlation between undocumented people and a rise in crime. Recent investigations by The New York Times and The Marshall Project found that between 2007 and 2016, there was no link between undocumented immigrants and a rise in violent or property crime in those communities."
https://www.npr.org/2024/03/08/1237103158/immigrants-are-less-likely-to-commit-crimes-than-us-born-americans-studies-find
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Oh good we have already reached the "I can't be racist I have a black friend" stage.
So those 15.000 Haitians in Springfield. They are all illegal?
Because they were supposedly the problem.
But now legal immigrants are no longer the problem.
The Porous border, that would be the porous border that the Republicans refuse to address because they want to keep talking about it? that border? The one that Democrats were willing to do something about but Donald Trump told Republicans to scuttle?
that border?
So where are we moving the goal posts to next?
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On September 13 2024 17:41 EnDeR_ wrote:
I genuinely do not get the US's problem with immigration. For decades you have been hoovering the brightest, most hardworking people on the planet. These people have contributed hugely to your economy, to your culture (you'd probably still be eating boiled Brussel sprouts and saying 'splendid' if it weren't for immigrants) and to every aspect you can possibly think of. And yet, you continue to demonize them or only look at people in terms of how much economic output you can get from them.
In a way I am glad. The brightest and most hardworking people should stay in their home countries and contribute where they are actually wanted. I am finally coming back to Spain, I just accepted a job there and even though it's significantly less money, I cannot wait to get away. If there's something I've learned as an immigrant is that you cannot buy happiness.
I am not sure what you not getting. Yes US was (and still is I would presume) happy to recruit brightest and most hardworking people in their fields. This however have nothing to do with mass immigration. While it may be good for economy it pretty much wrecks all the blue collar workers. In general when there is limited amount of workers, if somebody is really good at their job, company will appreciate it, doesnt matter how menial your job is. When mass immigration happen this is no longer the case, simply because it is the workers now who compete for any position business have available. In result pretty much all the positions will have minimum possible wage and minimum possible working conditions, and if you dont like it then, well quit and there will be 20 people happy to come and take this job. Now in closed environment (eg EU) over time it will work and even itself out (eg: Poland, at some point millions of people just left and over the several years wages and working conditions improved itself enough that not only people stayed, but many returned). Now if you have unlimited influx of workers then something like that is not going to happen, because workers have basically no value if you can replace them in instant.
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Norway28466 Posts
On September 13 2024 20:08 Elroi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2024 10:33 Magic Powers wrote:
I'd like to point out we're still at the blowing something completely out of proportion part. The crime that "migrants bring" (they don't) is committed by a small fraction. When compared to the general crime rate of the population (adjusted for socio-economic factors), in most cases the migrant crime rate practically becomes meaningless. If you look at all the countries in Europe where there has been significant immigration from third world countries over the last 30 years, crime rates have in fact skyrocketed. Also, who cares if the difference disappears if you adjust for socio-economic factors? (isn't that a circular argument to being with? Being an immigrant surely is a "social" factor?) "You now run a 5 times higher risk of being shot or assaulted than 10 years ago [roughly the numbers for Sweden], but don't worry that difference disappears if you adjust for socio-economic factors."
I question this and would like to see data. Firstly what countries are ones that have had significant immigration from third world countries over the last 30 years? I know you'll include Sweden - and Sweden, to be fair, has also seen an increase in crime. But I'd argue that most of western europe could be included - certainly the UK, Germany, France, Netherlands, Italy, Belgium should be. Otherwise you're basically just saying 'Sweden' when you say 'all the countries in europe where there has been significant immigration from third world countries'.
Here's an illustrative picture: ![[image loading]](https://preview.redd.it/immigrants-by-country-in-europe-2019-v0-a4yyxd32ffma1.jpg?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=3d6131006ea7ea0ebe1b164f30e62943ff5add25)
Anyway, I struggle finding data for all the countries in Europe for the past 30 years, but this seems to have data since 2012.
Looking at that, and comparing 2012 with 2024, we can, indeed, see a sharp increase in Sweden. We can also see an increase in France, and in Germany, and in Belgium. But Italy is down. Netherlands is down. Austria is down by a lot. Spain is about the same. Portugal is down. For Norway, crime has increased some the last couple years - but it's significantly less than it was in 2004.
I'm also not saying there's no relationship, but I think the relationship is more like, flawed integration = crime than immigration from third world countries = crime, while acknowledging that too high numbers arriving from war torn countries in too short time is very hard to integrate successfully.
My anecdotal experience as a Norwegian who has worked extensively with refugees over the past years is that there's also a big difference between countries that people migrate from - not just the destination country, and that 'third world' isn't really a useful umbrella. Eritreans, in my experience, integrate very successfully, despite coming from a very poor and war-torn country. Immigrants from Somalia, a country almost bordering Eritrea, much less so. (Interestingly, I just found some data - turns out that among Eritrean men, 80,6% are employed, and for Eritrean women, it's 63,2%. For Somalians, those figures are 53,5% and 40,8% respectively. For people from the UK, it's 78% and 66%. For Syrians, it's 56% and 29% - which seems like an abysmal figure, but then my experience is also that Syrians are much more likely to pursue higher education, and with them being a more recent group of refugees, many of them are still enrolled in school. (Whereas Eritreans go for jobs in health care, as cleaners, delivery services or taxis, so they find work faster).
I don't know what the reason for this difference is. I've heard that Somalians - notoriously one of the least successfully integrated groups in Norway - have done fairly well for themselves in Minnesota. I've seen that for Eritreans, the entire family tends to come, and first generation immigrant parents tend to work their asses off everywhere. Whereas single men who migrate (more common from Afghanistan or Somalia, in my experience) are more likely to end up involved in crime. And there might be issues of cultural compability making the transition easier for some and harder for others. I think these are important discussions to have in a transparent manner - and I'm not saying you're entirely wrong - but I do think your statement is too generalized to really qualify as 'correct'.
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On September 13 2024 20:40 Razyda wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2024 17:41 EnDeR_ wrote:
I genuinely do not get the US's problem with immigration. For decades you have been hoovering the brightest, most hardworking people on the planet. These people have contributed hugely to your economy, to your culture (you'd probably still be eating boiled Brussel sprouts and saying 'splendid' if it weren't for immigrants) and to every aspect you can possibly think of. And yet, you continue to demonize them or only look at people in terms of how much economic output you can get from them.
In a way I am glad. The brightest and most hardworking people should stay in their home countries and contribute where they are actually wanted. I am finally coming back to Spain, I just accepted a job there and even though it's significantly less money, I cannot wait to get away. If there's something I've learned as an immigrant is that you cannot buy happiness. I am not sure what you not getting. Yes US was (and still is I would presume) happy to recruit brightest and most hardworking people in their fields. This however have nothing to do with mass immigration. While it may be good for economy it pretty much wrecks all the blue collar workers. In general when there is limited amount of workers, if somebody is really good at their job, company will appreciate it, doesnt matter how menial your job is. When mass immigration happen this is no longer the case, simply because it is the workers now who compete for any position business have available. In result pretty much all the positions will have minimum possible wage and minimum possible working conditions, and if you dont like it then, well quit and there will be 20 people happy to come and take this job. Now in closed environment (eg EU) over time it will work and even itself out (eg: Poland, at some point millions of people just left and over the several years wages and working conditions improved itself enough that not only people stayed, but many returned). Now if you have unlimited influx of workers then something like that is not going to happen, because workers have basically no value if you can replace them in instant.
Can you define 'mass migration' for me, please?
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On September 13 2024 20:40 Razyda wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2024 17:41 EnDeR_ wrote:
I genuinely do not get the US's problem with immigration. For decades you have been hoovering the brightest, most hardworking people on the planet. These people have contributed hugely to your economy, to your culture (you'd probably still be eating boiled Brussel sprouts and saying 'splendid' if it weren't for immigrants) and to every aspect you can possibly think of. And yet, you continue to demonize them or only look at people in terms of how much economic output you can get from them.
In a way I am glad. The brightest and most hardworking people should stay in their home countries and contribute where they are actually wanted. I am finally coming back to Spain, I just accepted a job there and even though it's significantly less money, I cannot wait to get away. If there's something I've learned as an immigrant is that you cannot buy happiness. I am not sure what you not getting. Yes US was (and still is I would presume) happy to recruit brightest and most hardworking people in their fields. This however have nothing to do with mass immigration. While it may be good for economy it pretty much wrecks all the blue collar workers. In general when there is limited amount of workers, if somebody is really good at their job, company will appreciate it, doesnt matter how menial your job is. When mass immigration happen this is no longer the case, simply because it is the workers now who compete for any position business have available. In result pretty much all the positions will have minimum possible wage and minimum possible working conditions, and if you dont like it then, well quit and there will be 20 people happy to come and take this job. Now in closed environment (eg EU) over time it will work and even itself out (eg: Poland, at some point millions of people just left and over the several years wages and working conditions improved itself enough that not only people stayed, but many returned). Now if you have unlimited influx of workers then something like that is not going to happen, because workers have basically no value if you can replace them in instant.
First: US unemployed is at record lows.
Second: It wasn't (illegal) migrants that shut down tons of manufacturing plants/jobs and so on in the US.
Third: Your saying that US born citizens get supposedly outcompeted by people that fled/left their country, come with barely a social network, often have troubles with the english language, most likely didn't have a good formal education and as a cherry on top are not legally in the country which brings tons of other disadvantages?
Holy shit, the american worker must suck.
Immigration isn't easy and comes with troubles especially when handled poorly. But at least for the US, the Job argument just doesn't make any sense, it also doesn't in Switzerland, this is is diffrent in Spain or Greece. The migration you get is also plain "easier" than what european countries had and have to deal with after Iraq/Lybia/Afghanistan/Syria/Isis.
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On September 13 2024 17:41 EnDeR_ wrote:
I genuinely do not get the US's problem with immigration. For decades you have been hoovering the brightest, most hardworking people on the planet. These people have contributed hugely to your economy, to your culture (you'd probably still be eating boiled Brussel sprouts and saying 'splendid' if it weren't for immigrants) and to every aspect you can possibly think of. And yet, you continue to demonize them or only look at people in terms of how much economic output you can get from them.
In a way I am glad. The brightest and most hardworking people should stay in their home countries and contribute where they are actually wanted. I am finally coming back to Spain, I just accepted a job there and even though it's significantly less money, I cannot wait to get away. If there's something I've learned as an immigrant is that you cannot buy happiness.
I am an immigrant not at the US, not all immigrants contribute to the country nor the economy nor the culture.
Hong Kong for example, the amount of immigrants from China are quite literally changing how auditing firms are operating outside the handbook, not even necessarily due to CCP influence.
Australia is having a housing crisis even when they are more on getting only the smartest into the nation.
The heavy strain it is putting the social infrastructure just cannot be understated.
And even outside immigrations, huge influx of tourists can cause major issues, Tokyo is now having highest cases of Syphilis ever, a sharp increase after covid.
I think more than anyone else, immigrants need to be mindful just how much impact we do have.
As for the US, I think republicans are not wrong. Just look at New York doing so much just to keep the issues down.
And I won't be surprised if legally documented immigrants actually support republicans. It seems that's such a large group they don't really target.
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On September 13 2024 20:28 Gorsameth wrote:
Oh good we have already reached the "I can't be racist I have a black friend" stage.
So those 15.000 Haitians in Springfield. They are all illegal?
Because they were supposedly the problem.
But now legal immigrants are no longer the problem.
The Porous border, that would be the porous border that the Republicans refuse to address because they want to keep talking about it? that border? The one that Democrats were willing to do something about but Donald Trump told Republicans to scuttle?
that border?
So where are we moving the goal posts to next?
Probably to the nearest porous border.
I'm gonna refer back to my quote that BJ took exception to last night that we talk like "immigration is inherently bad", and how that was such a basic strawman. Well look how the conversation has gone since then. People tried to even obliquely suggest that immigrants can be a boon to their communities, and here we are, dragged right back down into the same fucking quagmire of a conversation again. We can't say a single goddamn thing about immigration without it turning into a shitfest about migrant crime waves and open borders. If I wanted to role play as one of the shitheads on Fox News I would've gone to acting school.
If you're gonna argue with the notion that the general conversation surrounding American immigrants is in the shitter BlackJack, why don't you do something about it? Holy shit. You made my point for me, dude.
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On September 13 2024 15:13 Fleetfeet wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2024 14:37 BlackJack wrote:
Funny, because this is far from the first time I’ve brought up immigration in this thread. Most of the previous times it’s in reference to NYC and the pill of regret they are having to swallow from inviting migrants into their city and creating a crisis. Their mayor, Eric Adams, has gone on record saying the migrant crisis is destroying the city.
Yet all the times I’ve talked about that in this thread nobody claimed NYC was not actually receiving a significant amount of immigrants because of data they’ve sourced from the 2020 census. Nobody questioned whether their resources for policing, housing, schooling were being strained due to the migrant crisis. Nobody questioned the mayors motivations in using extreme language like “this is destroying our city.”
But suddenly it happens in bumfuck Ohio and it’s all either “they haven’t had that many migrants come in but even if they did it’s not a big deal. They are only disgruntled cause they don’t like black people.”
Amazing how that works. Not really, because the "They're eating cats" came from random facebook, which was then picked up and repeated by republican talking heads. The mayor and sheriff of bumfuck Ohio both indicated that it wasn't an actual issue that was actually happening, and was fabricated. That's what makes the republicans look like they're disgruntled racists. They were so excited that black people were finally doing something abhorrent that they forgot to fact-check that it was actually happening, first. They just assumed it was actually happening because OF COURSE IT WOULD. Hopefully that explains the difference between those for you.
The Attorney General of Ohio has said Springfield has issues, and the Governor just deployed state troopers there while providing emergency funding. 9 of 10 people in line for social services there are migrants. Have they been outworking the Americans so busily that they forgot to get paid?
You can say people assume things are happening. People are gullible, sure. As are we all. You may equally assume things don't happen as part of a combination of
1) you hope, wish it isn't happening, or can't believe it would happen
2) you can't find a peer reviewed double blind study published yesterday in American Economic Review proving someone ate a cat in Ohio
...and alternately relying on one or the other as the alternative becomes less plausible or believable by other nonskeptics. (I have omitted the possibility of you knowing that inconvenient things are true and just gaslighting, as a matter of etiquette, but we can safely agree there are at least people in the world that option applies to also.)
This is a total lack of criticality towards media curators and their own lack of competence and good intentions.
Remember the Venezuelan gang took over an apartment complex in Colorado? I was told that "wasn't happening" either. You know why? Even a worthless, corrupt, shitbag leader knows enough to try not to look bad. Of course there's no problem, move along. Then the mayor himself tried to shut down the buildings in question.
Here's a primary source of Ohioans having a platform to speak and share their issues:
https://x.com/bennyjohnson/status/1833865787385225318
Immigrants enjoy net gains in employment as a group whereas Americans basically don't.
+ Show Spoiler +
The reason is not that the American worker is shit, but that corporatists want labor they can exploit which is also partly subsidized by the government - which is funded by taxpayers, meaning the actual native workers. So you have American workers paying to take care of cheaper laborers that take their jobs. And why do naive communists support this? The fact that someone in Russia, Nepal, Nigeria, Chile, Spain, all punch a timecard, and so do you, does not mean you have more in common with them than with your own country. People are so toxically altruistic they would fuck up their own jobs, compatriots, economy, and entire country, just to feel good while helping a mere 0.1% of the world's workers along the way, because Marx said so.
On September 13 2024 20:12 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2024 20:08 Elroi wrote:On September 13 2024 10:33 Magic Powers wrote:
I'd like to point out we're still at the blowing something completely out of proportion part. The crime that "migrants bring" (they don't) is committed by a small fraction. When compared to the general crime rate of the population (adjusted for socio-economic factors), in most cases the migrant crime rate practically becomes meaningless. If you look at all the countries in Europe where there has been significant immigration from third world countries over the last 30 years, crime rates have in fact skyrocketed. Also, who cares if the difference disappears if you adjust for socio-economic factors? (isn't that a circular argument to being with? Being an immigrant surely is a "social" factor?) "You now run a 5 times higher risk of being shot or assaulted than 10 years ago [roughly the numbers for Sweden], but don't worry that difference disappears if you adjust for socio-economic factors." I live in one of the most diverse cities in the world and the crime rate here is completely unbothered. In fact I'd say it has gone down over the last few decades.
Congratulations on being on the part of the Titanic that just shot upwards into the air.
The crime rate of legal immigrants should be 0%. However, taking a random person in the world and giving them a sheet of paper, doesn't change anything. The crime rate of illegal immigrants starts at 100%. This situation we're talking about now already had... two murders?
Remember the Venezuelan gang took over an apartment complex in Colorado? I was told that "wasn't happening" either. Then the mayor went to close down buildings to solve the problem that didn't exist.
In the case of illegal immigrants, especially in sanctuary jurisdictions but basically anywhere now that ICE and DHS are essentially a sanctuary agency being run by a contemptuous traitor - they often do not arrest to begin with, and if arrested, do not charge. This is the same statistical magic Muir tried to pull at the debate - FBI crime stats from 2024 and 2014 are not remotely comparable since a huge number of jurisdictions stopped reporting in 2021 meaning any trend fitting is useless because it's apples and oranges.
Your toothpaste is not locked up, your stores leaving, and your car window smashed in because crime is "down."
Furthermore, even if for the sake of argument immigrants committed less crime, you can't distribute that fact to subsets. An average is not a rule. All immigrants could have a crime rate of "a little crime," so what? Haitians in Ohio could have a crime rate of 0, or a medium amount, or a huge amount, or they could be average. Just because your team is the lowest scoring soccer team doesn't mean you don't have the single highest scoring player. Cite us your stats on immigrants 2020-2024, then immigrants in Ohio 2020-2024, then Haitian immigrants in Ohio 2020-2024. I will escrow and bet you $10,000 that male immigrants commit crime above the immigrant average and female immigrants commit crime below the immigrant average. Let me guess - Not going to take the bet, it's too obvious, everyone knows that could easily be true? Good, take the same open mindedness and realize it can be true about Ohio despite the fact that we might wish the world were just roses and sunflowers.
On September 13 2024 20:28 Gorsameth wrote:
Oh good we have already reached the "I can't be racist I have a black friend" stage.
So those 15.000 Haitians in Springfield. They are all illegal?
Because they were supposedly the problem.
But now legal immigrants are no longer the problem.
The Porous border, that would be the porous border that the Republicans refuse to address because they want to keep talking about it? that border? The one that Democrats were willing to do something about but Donald Trump told Republicans to scuttle?
that border?
Have the Democrats in the Senate passed HR2, or the Democratic resident of the White House reinstituted Drumpf's executive orders while I wasn't watching?
I know Kamala has said she wants to build a wall, it's a great idea, I wish the Republicans had thought of it first but whatever, and also it sucks that we have to wait until she finally gets elected until she comes through. Wish she were in office already now so she could get it done now.
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United States41470 Posts
The immigration issue is more cultural than economic. The economic benefits of immigration are long established. Children are a significant burden during infancy and old people even more of one. Almost all economic output is from people in the 18-60 range and a large amount of that is spent caring for the people outside of that range.
Bringing in economic migrants is like a cheat code for national prosperity. They pay for your aging parents rather than their own (or in addition to their own) and someone else paid for all those expensive childcare and education years.
I’m an example of this, though my migration wasn’t economically motivated. The UK paid for my education through university but the US gets my economic output. UK taxpayers pay for my parent’s pension. I pay more in taxes than the median household in my state earns and very little of that comes back to me. My social security contributions are helping prop up a program that would be unworkable with nonimmigrant demographics.
People just don’t like outsiders, even if they make things better.
That said, Americans love the English. I’ve experienced no real racism. There’s a weird pressure on me to meet and make friends with other English transplants but that’s basically it.
In terms of feeling like an outsider I’m not sure I relate because I’ve always felt like an outsider everywhere because my individual identity isn’t strongly linked to my national identity. I don’t know the pledge of allegiance or national anthem or the rules to football or baseball or basketball and I don’t go to church etc. and I’m good with all of that.
Nobody is trying to melt me into the melting pot and I’m not trying to get melted. I’m not sure I’ve even seen the melting pot, American society just isn’t that social anymore. I don’t have to join a Baptist church to exist in my community nor do I have to attend football games. The social dynamics and structures that the melting pot seems predicated on have been eroded, you can exist within American society perfectly happily without doing anything American.
They’ll get my kids though. They’ll likely grow up American. And that’s okay because I can’t see it as materially different to growing up English and place far more weight on individual identity than national identity. My kids will be themselves first.
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There is a melting pot, you just have to jump in. It is more voluntary than it used to be (judgement reserved on the benefits/downsides of that).
It's just silly that people assume eveyone who crosses the border, and in whatever manner, is the same. The immigrant from India, or even the Mexican worker of 20 years ago is not a stand-ii for eveyone who crosses, especially given how things have gone the last few years. Given the sheer volume of illegal crossings or fake asylum seekers recently you got a lot of all sorts of people! Which is why thr border need to be controlled.
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@oBlade
"The crime rate of legal immigrants should be 0%"
No, it shouldn't. Immigrants should have roughly the same crime rate as locals. That is the normal expectation and you should adjust your expectation towards that.
In your view immigrants can only be angels or demons, nothing in between. That is the racist playbook all around the globe, it never changes.
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On September 14 2024 00:11 Magic Powers wrote:
@oBlade
"The crime rate of legal immigrants should be 0%"
No, it shouldn't. Immigrants should have roughly the same crime rate as locals. That is the normal expectation and you should adjust your expectation towards that.
In your view immigrants can only be angels or demons, nothing in between. That is the racist playbook all around the globe, it never changes.
My guess is that oBlade meant that morally/ideally speaking, the crime rate of everyone ought to be 0%, but I was unclear about that too, so I hope that oBlade clarifies that part.
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On September 13 2024 23:42 Introvert wrote:
There is a melting pot, you just have to jump in. It is more voluntary than it used to be (judgement reserved on the benefits/downsides of that).
It's just silly that people assume eveyone who crosses the border, and in whatever manner, is the same. The immigrant from India, or even the Mexican worker of 20 years ago is not a stand-ii for eveyone who crosses, especially given how things have gone the last few years. Given the sheer volume of illegal crossings or fake asylum seekers recently you got a lot of all sorts of people! Which is why thr border need to be controlled.
You get all sorts of people when they're legal, too. That's kind of part-and-parcel with immigration in general. Controlling the border won't change that.
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I moved for economic reasons. Don't get me wrong, it has worked out, the alternative was minimum wage with no prospects for advancement. Emigrating has given me opportunities that my friends back home simply did not have. I am now senior enough that I will never have to worry about money, so in the balance of things I do think it was the smart decision and I would do it again if I had the chance.
It may be different for you, Kwark, as a British person. I avoid using my full name if at all possible to avoid issues. For example I occasionally get stopped at immigration at airports, sent to the little room and get asked pointed questions while my documentation is checked against a criminal database. I noticed that when I dropped my second last name (Sanchez) my stuff was less likely to bounce. It made me sad that having a latin-sounding last name turned me into a second class kind of citizen and it never sat well with me.
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Oblade please provide a source on the Venezuelan gang thing being true. I dont find it anywhere. All i see are mentions of it being a hoax and the apartments being in disrepair.
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On September 13 2024 23:42 Introvert wrote:
There is a melting pot, you just have to jump in. It is more voluntary than it used to be (judgement reserved on the benefits/downsides of that).
It's just silly that people assume eveyone who crosses the border, and in whatever manner, is the same. The immigrant from India, or even the Mexican worker of 20 years ago is not a stand-ii for eveyone who crosses, especially given how things have gone the last few years. Given the sheer volume of illegal crossings or fake asylum seekers recently you got a lot of all sorts of people! Which is why thr border need to be controlled.
Eh, there isn't a melting pot nor do I suspect there ever was one. An Italian immigrant and a Russian immigrant and an Irish immigrant didn't all come to NYC and suddenly they melted into some American identity. They just lived their lives. The "American identity" came when their children were born and were taught English with a New York accent, and went to fight for the US military in the first world war. The same as my aunt and uncle don't feel particularly American, but my cousins are Americans. And I won't ever consider myself Catalan or Spanish, but if I had kids they'd no doubt grow up Catalan, because that's just the kind of town I live in. It isn't any different really: we have an identity that will just never completely fit in. There's Catalan and Spanish cultural aspects that I genuinely love, but that doesn't make me "melted" :p
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United States9913 Posts
On September 13 2024 16:23 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2024 14:37 BlackJack wrote:
Funny, because this is far from the first time I’ve brought up immigration in this thread. Most of the previous times it’s in reference to NYC and the pill of regret they are having to swallow from inviting migrants into their city and creating a crisis. Their mayor, Eric Adams, has gone on record saying the migrant crisis is destroying the city.
Yet all the times I’ve talked about that in this thread nobody claimed NYC was not actually receiving a significant amount of immigrants because of data they’ve sourced from the 2020 census. Nobody questioned whether their resources for policing, housing, schooling were being strained due to the migrant crisis. Nobody questioned the mayors motivations in using extreme language like “this is destroying our city.”
But suddenly it happens in bumfuck Ohio and it’s all either “they haven’t had that many migrants come in but even if they did it’s not a big deal. They are only disgruntled cause they don’t like black people.”
Amazing how that works. Cutting through all the bullshit, it looks like Springfield, Ohio is having the same problem any gold/oilrush town faced: rapid population growth due to unexpected economic opportunities, and the infrastructure hasn't caught up. Here is what seem like two fair takes on it: NewsNation, focusing on the problems large scale legal migration is causing by taxing the infrastructure: https://www.newsnationnow.com/us-news/immigration/residents-springfield-speak-immigrant/ Whereas AP highlights the economic benefits of legal migrants in the area: https://apnews.com/article/springfield-haitian-immigrants-trump-eating-pets-84aa8ae10963cbeadd48b3945b322620Both of these things can be true at once. The number of migrants seems a bit all over the place, with some officials saying 15,000, but others saying 10% (which would be 6,000, or less than half of the other number), but regardless of whether it's 10% or 25%, a sudden influx of people like that will tax the local infrastructure; regardless of provenance or even economic situation. They'll need local doctors, their children will go to local schools, they'll drive and park cars on the local roads. Nome of that will be scaled to cope with the influx. Meanwhile the influx is clearly happening for a reason: the local businesses are desperate for employees, and word spreads through the Haitian community that there are jobs and opportunity in Springfield. These people aren't coming to beg for handouts from the famously generous Ohio state welfare system, they are coming to do the jobs that are clearly available. Now, whether you should be happy that these jobs are done at all, or the businesses should go under because they didn't pay enough to keep the local population interested in doing those jobs in the first place in the 00s depends a lot on how much you align with GreenHorizons... but I thought a conservative capitalist would applaud this migration of labor as supply and demand in the labor market working exactly as it's supposed to...
This is really how I see it. Nothing in this thread is actually talking about the town itself or how the town has responded to it. Blackjack is doing whataboutisms and spewing weird theories rather than just looking at how the town feels about the immigrants. The town is fine, the town is doing better because of the immigrations, not worse. So I ask again, how is this a problem?
Also, not fucking oblade using a god damn Benny Johnson tweet. Man be serious.
On September 14 2024 00:41 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2024 23:42 Introvert wrote:
There is a melting pot, you just have to jump in. It is more voluntary than it used to be (judgement reserved on the benefits/downsides of that).
It's just silly that people assume eveyone who crosses the border, and in whatever manner, is the same. The immigrant from India, or even the Mexican worker of 20 years ago is not a stand-ii for eveyone who crosses, especially given how things have gone the last few years. Given the sheer volume of illegal crossings or fake asylum seekers recently you got a lot of all sorts of people! Which is why thr border need to be controlled. Eh, there isn't a melting pot nor do I suspect there ever was one. An Italian immigrant and a Russian immigrant and an Irish immigrant didn't all come to NYC and suddenly they melted into some American identity. They just lived their lives. The "American identity" came when their children were born and were taught English with a New York accent, and went to fight for the US military in the first world war. The same as my aunt and uncle don't feel particularly American, but my cousins are Americans. And I won't ever consider myself Catalan or Spanish, but if I had kids they'd no doubt grow up Catalan, because that's just the kind of town I live in. It isn't any different really: we have an identity that will just never completely fit in. There's Catalan and Spanish cultural aspects that I genuinely love, but that doesn't make me "melted" :p
My parents have now lived in America for over half their lives, they do feel somewhat American at this point, though a lot of it is also the fact that they feel like they owe this country for providing them with the opportunity to prosper and succeed. Obviously, they will always be Chinese, but at the end of the day, they consider themselves American now. (Little running gag in the family is my mom is learning Japanese and asks my dad if he's Chinese, to which he'll reply, no, I'm American.)
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Bisutopia19137 Posts
The comment that killed me was when Trump said world crime was going down because all the illegal immigrant criminals were coming into the US lolol.
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EPT![[image loading]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GWy5xMbXIAAP9Uj?format=jpg&name=medium)
