EPTOn June 27 2024 09:08 Waxangel wrote:
hero reveal at Gamescom
hero reveal at Gamescom
Getting some real WC3 flashback feelings from this!
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread - Page 134
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Harris1st
Germany6664 Posts
Getting some real WC3 flashback feelings from this! | ||
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MegaBuster
167 Posts
On June 27 2024 18:08 Harris1st wrote: There are ample of game which focus on story, storytelling and lore even in the RTS scene. C&C for example had some decent story telling with the live actions videos in between and stuff. But even there, when you played multiplayer, BOTH sides could play GDI. What??? GDI playing vs GDI? How does that work? They are on the same side after all?! That doesn't make any sense! What a shitty game! TL,DR: There is a story/ campaign mode and there are other game modes/ games where story doesn't matter. Get over it Blizzard RTS are pretty renowned for their more elegant solutions to the effect you are describing. From inter-Orcish clan warfare in WC2 to the development of the Dominion and Kerrigan's rebellion against the Overmind in SC1 its all very connected to answering the question — how do we justify mirror matchups in the story? The resolution of this problem is the jumping off point for so much creativity and scenario design. I'm glad they weren't as ambivalent as you are since then there would only be shitty Command and Conquer games. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland23339 Posts
On June 27 2024 18:10 Harris1st wrote: Getting some real WC3 flashback feelings from this! I wonder how they’re gonna implement heroes, will they be more SC2 style and just unique units, or will there be any kind of levelling/item progression a la WC3 | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland23339 Posts
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SoleSteeler
Canada5397 Posts
On June 27 2024 18:51 WombaT wrote: I wonder how they’re gonna implement heroes, will they be more SC2 style and just unique units, or will there be any kind of levelling/item progression a la WC3 Currently they're just like SC2 co-op heroes: as you complete missions you level them up and unlock new units, upgrades, and abilities. There's no in-game leveling and choosing abilities/items etc. In the 3v3 mode, I would think/hope it should be similar to War3 with leveling in game. As for the narrative discussion, MegaBuster does bring up a decent point (Archimonde playing with Tyrande long before we see them in the campaign). Hopefully they realize this (they must, right?) and leave spoiler-y lines out of the co-op experience. (Blockade to Warz: "thanks for betraying the infernals to help us take down those rogue celestials yesterday!") Overall, I don't care that two heroes can team up that aren't friends in the overall narrative, however. When I was playing the alpha/beta, I noticed the lancers say "my soul is ready" as one of their lines when you click on them. After I heard that a few times I thought spoiler alert: the vanguard will probably enter "hell" or wherever the infernals are from at one point! Otherwise, his soul is ready for what?? | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8984 Posts
On June 27 2024 18:51 WombaT wrote: I wonder how they’re gonna implement heroes, will they be more SC2 style and just unique units, or will there be any kind of levelling/item progression a la WC3 They show some neutral shops in this video so I can see an item/leveling system for sure. Also some of the sc2 heroes in co-op do upgrade as the game goes along, but there's no item shops | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16289 Posts
On June 27 2024 15:24 WombaT wrote: Both things can be true. Bnet 2.0 was fucking balls at launch, little features we’re so used to we’ve forgotten they weren’t always part of SC2. On the flipside well, it’s a fucking great game so those didn’t really matter at the end of the day. Whereas Stormgate to me looks like it’ll be decent, but not quite having that special sauce, still some ot the QoL things carried over, things like co-op and being F2P in certain modes are nice to have Compared to what other RTS games offered BNet 2.0 was great. EA did not even have their own social platform. Gamespy was garbage and when it shut down C&C3 and Red Alert 3 multiplayer and coop ended. A pirated version was the only way to play. I will give an extreme example to illustrate my point. In 2024, Pacman sucks. You can memorize 3 maze patterns and play for 180 minutes as you barrel thru 255 stages. In 1980 there was nothing like it ... For the first time ever enemies has personalities. The game made 5X as much as Star Wars. It does not matter that Pacman sucks in 2024. | ||
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MegaBuster
167 Posts
On June 27 2024 18:53 WombaT wrote: Its pretty shocking how many people will argue in favor of the positive bouquet of fart smells. You are polling people on TL about narrative which is something like polling a pack of grizzly bears for their favorite cruciferous vegetable. Then note the total participants at the time of this comment as 20. So you are standing in the wreckage of RTS popularity here, echoing the same antipathy for effects that have filtered the total audience size to about that of an average yoga class. Does it matter to anyone to mention that the Stormgate co-op is not popular? Its failing. Its not popular like the SC2 mode. Instead of being multiple times bigger than competitive and buoying the more challenging mode, its just an afterthought. Why do you think that is? A big part of it is that the Stormgate co-op heroes stink. They are way pared down from what you get with an SC2 hero. In Stormgate you get 2 palette swapped units and a bunch of passive abilities and upgrades. In SC2 they make use of the bounty of campaign assets to give you 5-6 new units, new skins, new mechanics, new abilities, entire new macro models, and on. But another big part of it is the meaning layer. SC2 hooks onto a 20 year history of characters and the events of the whole SC2 campaign to give a feel for what you are doing. And the feel still kind of sucks in SC2 co-op. It oftentimes feels like a bad version of StarCraft World at Disneyland. People play it because its something to do that's accessible that keeps them around the very compelling fandom of StarCraft. Stormgate on the other hand has none of that earned power of the story and will not enjoy that same privilege. Instead it ends up with all the same 'theme park' kind of problems but with none of the magic. So you are at Walley World basically, a cheap roadside theme park your parents took you to because Disney was too expensive and far away. What I'm saying is — without the power of StarCraft, imitating the same problems will matter and it may have a disastrous effect. There's evidence already. Anyways Zerospace just announced a 'narratively consistent' approach to co-op modelled after Hell Divers 2/Planetside/Shattered Galaxies. Like you can't judge these things in a vacuum, because you might end up with bad data similar to our poll here. But look how again how the company with 1/20th the money of Frost Giant has been more serious about identifying problems with SC2 and trying to do something about them. User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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Turbovolver
Australia2347 Posts
On June 28 2024 04:49 MegaBuster wrote: Anyways Zerospace just announced a 'narratively consistent' approach to co-op modelled after Hell Divers 2/Planetside/Shattered Galaxies. Like you can't judge these things in a vacuum, because you might end up with bad data similar to our poll here. But look how again how the company with 1/20th the money of Frost Giant has been more serious about identifying problems with SC2 and trying to do something about them. How can you possibly know that from that tweet? Is there more to see? I don't get how going down to a planet to team up with your friend who plays the other faction from the game to fight against other "alliances" also piloting some mixture of the game's factions is any more narratively consistent than any other co-op scenario. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland23339 Posts
On June 28 2024 03:28 JimmyJRaynor wrote: Compared to what other RTS games offered BNet 2.0 was great. EA did not even have their own social platform. Gamespy was garbage and when it shut down C&C3 and Red Alert 3 multiplayer and coop ended. A pirated version was the only way to play. I will give an extreme example to illustrate my point. In 2024, Pacman sucks. You can memorize 3 maze patterns and play for 180 minutes as you barrel thru 255 stages. In 1980 there was nothing like it ... For the first time ever enemies has personalities. The game made 5X as much as Star Wars. It does not matter that Pacman sucks in 2024. Bnet 2.0 was worse than Bnet 1.0 so I’m not really sure what your point is here | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland23339 Posts
On June 28 2024 04:49 MegaBuster wrote: Its pretty shocking how many people will argue in favor of the positive bouquet of fart smells. You are polling people on TL about narrative which is something like polling a pack of grizzly bears for their favorite cruciferous vegetable. Then note the total participants at the time of this comment as 20. So you are standing in the wreckage of RTS popularity here, echoing the same antipathy for effects that have filtered the total audience size to about that of an average yoga class. Does it matter to anyone to mention that the Stormgate co-op is not popular? Its failing. Its not popular like the SC2 mode. Instead of being multiple times bigger than competitive and buoying the more challenging mode, its just an afterthought. Why do you think that is? A big part of it is that the Stormgate co-op heroes stink. They are way pared down from what you get with an SC2 hero. In Stormgate you get 2 palette swapped units and a bunch of passive abilities and upgrades. In SC2 they make use of the bounty of campaign assets to give you 5-6 new units, new skins, new mechanics, new abilities, entire new macro models, and on. But another big part of it is the meaning layer. SC2 hooks onto a 20 year history of characters and the events of the whole SC2 campaign to give a feel for what you are doing. And the feel still kind of sucks in SC2 co-op. It oftentimes feels like a bad version of StarCraft World at Disneyland. People play it because its something to do that's accessible that keeps them around the very compelling fandom of StarCraft. Stormgate on the other hand has none of that earned power of the story and will not enjoy that same privilege. Instead it ends up with all the same 'theme park' kind of problems but with none of the magic. So you are at Walley World basically, a cheap roadside theme park your parents took you to because Disney was too expensive and far away. What I'm saying is — without the power of StarCraft, imitating the same problems will matter and it may have a disastrous effect. There's evidence already. Anyways Zerospace just announced a 'narratively consistent' approach to co-op modelled after Hell Divers 2/Planetside/Shattered Galaxies. Like you can't judge these things in a vacuum, because you might end up with bad data similar to our poll here. But look how again how the company with 1/20th the money of Frost Giant has been more serious about identifying problems with SC2 and trying to do something about them. How is ‘do you care?’ bad data? I haven’t tried Helldivers because exclusivity, I do enjoy a bit of Warhammer Darktide because I’m a giant 40K freak. My kiddo enjoyed playing it with me because he could be a big Ogryn guy and shoot people. He knew literally nothing about the universe prior. Similarity I had a blast playing co-op with my partner who isn’t even really a gamer, much less a hardcore RTS fan. She knew of Kerrigan alone as SC characters go, but we had a blast nonetheless The whole fun is throw me into a fun RTS scenario, find a difficulty where you can equalise anywhere between a StarCraft veteran and a newbie and take that on If you’re doing a co-op campaign mode, something I don’t think many games have nailed but I think would be fantastic, then yeah narrative consistency is obviously important. I don’t even think you’re being serious in your critiques at this point. You’re praising Battle Aces in one thread which as far as I can see has little to no narrative whatsoever, and you’re complaining that street signs are runic in this one and it somehow ruins immersion | ||
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MegaBuster
167 Posts
'the entire representation, from music to artstyle to design of units and buildings doesn't interest me at all' 'They really really should've focused more on art, lore, and unique races/characters. Take more of a chance, it's a scifi/fantasy mashup and this is your most creative ideas??' What do you think people are really saying with these re-occurring type of comments? Why do they jump around a bunch of words like design, art, lore, aesthetics, story? You can't look at games like an IGN score, there aren't 5-6 separate dimensions that Stormgate is individually failing at that you can just step in and upgrade the visual design, sound, story like they are little meters that can be filled up. Games have an effect on their players that happens some way based on their internal structure, its a huge off-roading journey to work out how this happens but they need to be judged in of themselves. Battle Aces is a coherent game. Its not doing many many things the other RTS do, but the whole thing is clean and makes sense as a work of fantasy, there's no friction where its rubbing on itself. The comments from reddit capture a lot of things but mostly that the game doesn't make any fucking sense to a bunch of people, it doesn't mean something, they don't feel anything. Its true that the SC2 co-op campaign supports a ludicrous, non-sensical co-op. I don't think why that happens will work for Stormgate. Its a difficult space to explore where these RTS co-op modes happen in kind of a partial narrative space, but I do think the story and coherence matters. It especially matters because people keep saying its failing, and if you wave off every effect (especially with daring strawman type arguments) you aren't going to have many avenues left to explore as to why that is happening. | ||
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Turbovolver
Australia2347 Posts
On June 28 2024 10:46 MegaBuster wrote: Here are some top comments from reddit on their early access trailer which just dropped. 'the entire representation, from music to artstyle to design of units and buildings doesn't interest me at all' 'They really really should've focused more on art, lore, and unique races/characters. Take more of a chance, it's a scifi/fantasy mashup and this is your most creative ideas??' What do you think people are really saying with these re-occurring type of comments? Why do they jump around a bunch of words like design, art, lore, aesthetics, story? You can't look at games like an IGN score, there aren't 5-6 separate dimensions that Stormgate is individually failing at that you can just step in and upgrade the visual design, sound, story like they are little meters that can be filled up. Games have an effect on their players that happens some way based on their internal structure, its a huge off-roading journey to work out how this happens but they need to be judged in of themselves. Battle Aces is a coherent game. Its not doing many many things the other RTS do, but the whole thing is clean and makes sense as a work of fantasy, there's no friction where its rubbing on itself. The comments from reddit capture a lot of things but mostly that the game doesn't make any fucking sense to a bunch of people, it doesn't mean something, they don't feel anything. Its true that the SC2 co-op campaign supports a ludicrous, non-sensical co-op. I don't think why that happens will work for Stormgate. Its a difficult space to explore where these RTS co-op modes happen in kind of a partial narrative space, but I do think the story and coherence matters. It especially matters because people keep saying its failing, and if you wave off every effect (especially with daring strawman type arguments) you aren't going to have many avenues left to explore as to why that is happening. Okay but how does any of this explain how you figured out the level of narrative consistency there'll be in Zeroscape's Co-op mode from that tweet you linked??? You're not interested in a conversation, you just find every little thing you can to try to bash on Stormgate for some weird reason you apparently don't want to disclose. And I don't think you get it. I'm not here to defend Stormgate. You have consumed hours more content regarding the game than I have, let alone all the reddit threads you seem to like to read about it. I haven't tried to get into any previews, and I've only watched like two casted pro games of it. I think the art is kinda generic, and am waiting to see if the gameplay looks good when it's ready for me to make that evaluation. I am just here as a TL poster who likes RTS and is hoping a new fun one will come out in the near future. For example I watched Artosis' video talking about Battle Aces with great interest too. The thing is, your posting is just so damn ridiculous and stupidly biased that it trolls people like me into posting to point out how bad faith you are being. Regardless of my feelings, or lack thereof, towards Stormgate. | ||
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MegaBuster
167 Posts
Zerospace is going to have all its own challenges with storytelling, especially since they have like a dating sim in their campaign or some shit but you can feel out some of the effects of doing a co-op RTS campaign on a battle map like they are shooting for. For one it moves things from a specific scenario based thing like 'endlessly replay that moment from the story where Alarak engages in the Taldarim duel of Rak'Shir', to a generic scenario like 'this Arch Mage and Human band is battling a bunch of Orcs led by a Blademaster on Turtle Rock', with the latter becoming something more evocative and capable of drawing out the fantasy element in someone's conception of what they are doing. I didn't say Zerospace's Hell Divers/Battle Map idea resolved every other issues in how that game feels or how its story works, but I did say that it was cool they were choosing a direction which deals with some of the problems you'll see in Stormgate. Its hard to talk about this important fantasy motivation in a player's head since with videogames every effect of the game exists on a continuum of believability. So prudent argumentative types can just point to the lack of believability in some feature of the game in order to discredit the importance of believability for every feature of the game. So there's always going to be basic videogame buy-ins of 'ignore that units are as tall as buildings' and Wombat's 'you can save your game and what does that mean about time'. But past that there is a midground where the decisions you make as a designer on what to make coherent is going to have an effect on the player. So choosing to build something that properly creates the fantasy of 'participation in a sci fi war between two parties' versus 'why is the villain of the game high fiving the hero of the game' will matter. I believe the former allows for people to properly engage with the fantasy of the game and causes them to say less things like those reddit posts. While I believe the latter will cause a general lack of attachment to the material. This kind of thing is especially important in new and young players who are going to have more feelings as they navigate a type of work that is novel to them and need those feelings to be good. Compared to SC2 vets whose brains are likely going to perceive Stormgate using their existing model of SC2, and accordingly will have less pronounced feelings. These vets will play the game it if it meets some kind of utilitarian product-like swap over point, like having enough esports while giving enough build and destroy type experience as the old game. My generous interpretation of the comments that led me here are this — some people have forgotten that you can feel emotive and intellectual things when you play RTS, they also don't understand that these are actually some of the most important things for a new game to focus on. | ||
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ETisME
12253 Posts
On June 27 2024 09:08 Waxangel wrote: hero reveal at Gamescom https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gA0CggtDHu4 I am just confused why this trailer is so much better than the third race reveal. Probably their best trailer yet. But I feel like they should done a trailer for coop mode before this one. This could have been some reveal for a new MOBA hero. | ||
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Turbovolver
Australia2347 Posts
On June 28 2024 12:00 MegaBuster wrote: I didn't say Zerospace's Hell Divers/Battle Map idea resolved every other issues in how that game feels or how its story works, but I did say that it was cool they were choosing a direction which deals with some of the problems you'll see in Stormgate. And then I asked how they are doing that, as in, where did you get any details of what their direction is beyond just "going down to a planet" and you gave me 5 paragraphs about how "actually details and gamefeel matter and this is why Stormgate is doomed". Do you see the issue there? Call that bad faith or call it whatever you want *shrug* | ||
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Harris1st
Germany6664 Posts
On June 28 2024 03:28 JimmyJRaynor wrote: Compared to what other RTS games offered BNet 2.0 was great. EA did not even have their own social platform. Gamespy was garbage and when it shut down C&C3 and Red Alert 3 multiplayer and coop ended. A pirated version was the only way to play. I will give an extreme example to illustrate my point. In 2024, Pacman sucks. You can memorize 3 maze patterns and play for 180 minutes as you barrel thru 255 stages. In 1980 there was nothing like it ... For the first time ever enemies has personalities. The game made 5X as much as Star Wars. It does not matter that Pacman sucks in 2024. Dude, Bnet 2.0 took everything that made Bnet 1.0 great and threw it in the dumpster, then released. If you don't know what you are talking about maybe just don't... | ||
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Harris1st
Germany6664 Posts
I really don't get why you are so hung up on lore in random gameplay modes. If there is a campaign aka storymode then yes, lore and story are important. If they let you enjoy these modes with friends aka coop campaign then yes equally so. But for all matters that are PvP or PvPvE or in this case random short PvE Coop games then no, story and lore don't matter in the slighest. Now don't get me wrong, It's great what Arrowhead does with Helldivers 2. That's something that has never been successfully done before on this scale and hell yeah I enjoy that. If Zeroespace can recreate that in an RTS space then hell yeah I'm down for that. But to take the success from Arrowhead as a baseline is ridiculous and makes me think that you argue in fact mostly in bad faith | ||
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_Spartak_
Turkey376 Posts
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MegaBuster
167 Posts
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