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On November 30 2020 08:48 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2020 08:41 Calliope wrote:On November 30 2020 08:24 deacon.frost wrote:On November 30 2020 08:17 Calliope wrote:On November 30 2020 08:06 Xain0n wrote:On November 30 2020 07:54 Calliope wrote:On November 30 2020 07:48 Morbidius wrote:On November 30 2020 07:44 Penev wrote:Do we actually have genuine Serral haters though, on this site? I really only see people objecting to the GOAT status thing, not that he isn't a great player. And baiting of course, LOTS of baiting  Is Serral the best foreigner ever? Yes. Would his career have taken an even bigger nosedive if if wasn't for the good old reliable Protoss punching bags he draws every other tournament? Absolutely. I agree with this. Serral is undeniably the best foreigner, but it comes at a time of an extreme zerg dominance that has lasted years. Reynor is a top contender as well, but this dominance just does not seem possible to achieve by foreigners of any other race. This meme needs to die, it's simply false. Serral DID NOT benefit of Zerg being op in order to dominate Sc2 in 2018! Also, in one ideal world in which Protoss are cold blooded killers Maru gets to win a single Code S and the only tournament Rogue wins in his career is BlizzCon 2017, something tells me Serral is in very good company. It's neither meme nor opinion, it is just results. It's rather the interpretation of them that everyone disagrees on. Zerg had an over 70% win rate in tournaments these past years (and something almost equally lopsided like 40% 2nd place finishers). I think foreigner bias explains that by saying that he is just much better than everyone else. I think he is a better zerg than everyone else (but now there are two of them, curiously sharing the same race). However, the best player in my mind, is the one who succeeds despite his race. A fruitdealer, bisu, etc kind of story. Depends on what you look at, Zerg won 60 % of the premiere tournaments from the Rogue's Blizzcon onwards. All WC titles since the Rogue's Blizzcon onwards and has 35 % of all the 2nd places. It's nice to mention that while this is all happening Rogue managed to win 3 WC titles while Serral managed to get 1  The last nonzerg WC is TY from the 2017 IEM. The last Protoss WC is sOs from 2015 Blizzcon. Zerg has a domination we haven't seen before. Zerg GOATs everywhere Edit> Premiere tournaments numbers (not sure if the last DH is in but I think it should be) Titles: 32/13/8 (Z/T/P) runner ups: 19/11/23 (Z/T/P) Top title achievers: Serral(13), Maru(7), Reynor(6), Rogue(6), Dark(3) WC titles: Rogue(3), soO, Dark, Serral(1) The biggest outlier is Maru with 7/13(54 %), the next is Serral with 13/32 (41 %). But hey, for the first time if we remove Serral then Terran and Protoss titles combined in the 3-year history are more than what's left of Zerg's titles That's a lot of clown faces but it concords with the results I mentioned. I don't find it funny, but sad. Sad for all the talented players who picked the wrong race. We'll never agree, but I would advocate that we talk less about goats, it's a shitty topic anyway, and more about the best players of each respective race. That is the only fair measurement, given blizzard's unwillingness to adjust the balance (that sadly is not reflected in earnings). helps me to not stop watching everything Also I believe Blizzard haven't touched the Zergs because they don't know what to change to not break them too much as I believe now the Zerg problem lies in their design alone.
Did you notice that Blizzard actually nerfed Zerg more than once?
The problem is that they haven't understood how to properly balance PvZ.
Terran seems to be in a fine state at the moment.
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France12738 Posts
On November 30 2020 08:13 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2020 08:09 Morbidius wrote:On November 30 2020 08:06 Xain0n wrote:On November 30 2020 07:54 Calliope wrote:On November 30 2020 07:48 Morbidius wrote:On November 30 2020 07:44 Penev wrote:Do we actually have genuine Serral haters though, on this site? I really only see people objecting to the GOAT status thing, not that he isn't a great player. And baiting of course, LOTS of baiting Is Serral the best foreigner ever? Yes. Would his career have taken an even bigger nosedive if if wasn't for the good old reliable Protoss punching bags he draws every other tournament? Absolutely. I agree with this. Serral is undeniably the best foreigner, but it comes at a time of an extreme zerg dominance that has lasted years. Reynor is a top contender as well, but this dominance just does not seem possible to achieve by foreigners of any other race. Serral DID NOT benefit of Zerg being op in order to dominate Sc2 in 2018! Yeah sorry, i forgot he played Protoss in 2018. How many times will I have to say that Serral reigned alone while Zerg weren't even reaching ro4 in Code S and that if you removed him you would have had one Zerg title in WCS, one Stats vs Dark and one Stats vs Rogue final? Will you ever stop blindly hating? You'd better choose a more fit title for your next thread.
Even without Serral zergs gained a lot more money than terrans in 2018, Maru included. Lambo almost beat TY and put up a good fight against Maru. While Maru could beat Serral with the ravens strat that got nerfed after, he had to resort a lot to 2rax vs Rogue and Dark to beat them in the bo7.
ZvP wise, finals vs Stats was a foregone conclusion or almost no matter who won between Rogue and Serral, both would have been favorites (although Serral was the best zerg that year I would favor him over Rogue against Stats).
You only say that zerg wasn’t super strong in 2018 and it doesn’t appear utterly wrong, because they somehow got even more OP / dominant in 2019... but they were already slightly favored in 2017 after the hydra buff that propulsed Elazer to a very good results at BlizzCon, and made Rogue looks invincible.
So I agree that Serral is a superb player, the GOAT of foreigners (it took a lot of time for someone to dethrone Stephano), and he can beat any player in the world any given day offline (he seems to have troubles vs mines online with the ping?) ; but you can’t really deny he got helped in his legacy runs by the state of the game. Especially imo having to avoid the top terrans / ZvT being slightly Z favored to frankly Z favored, helped him. We see that retrospectively because he got beaten by a lot of terrans now that the matchup is quite even (except maybe lurkers): Clem multiple times, Cure, now ByuN, and I probably forgot one.
If you don’t believe me about the money argument, take a look at 2018 earnings, it also shows that while Protoss didn’t have a tournament dominant winner like Serral in EU and Maru in KR, they won more money than terrans overall (Maru included), which confirms that they were not that weak (even had some good runs / got nerfed after a tournament like small IEM?), just didn’t manage to win finals, but made money at all levels of play.
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On November 30 2020 08:26 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2020 07:20 anachy wrote:
So this open the question again. Is Byun the Goat? It took byun winning an online non-premier tournament to open the question again?
To be fair, all tournaments are online at the moment - except for GSL. Maybe not have been a premier tournament but it had premier players!
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On November 30 2020 08:58 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2020 08:13 Xain0n wrote:On November 30 2020 08:09 Morbidius wrote:On November 30 2020 08:06 Xain0n wrote:On November 30 2020 07:54 Calliope wrote:On November 30 2020 07:48 Morbidius wrote:On November 30 2020 07:44 Penev wrote:Do we actually have genuine Serral haters though, on this site? I really only see people objecting to the GOAT status thing, not that he isn't a great player. And baiting of course, LOTS of baiting Is Serral the best foreigner ever? Yes. Would his career have taken an even bigger nosedive if if wasn't for the good old reliable Protoss punching bags he draws every other tournament? Absolutely. I agree with this. Serral is undeniably the best foreigner, but it comes at a time of an extreme zerg dominance that has lasted years. Reynor is a top contender as well, but this dominance just does not seem possible to achieve by foreigners of any other race. Serral DID NOT benefit of Zerg being op in order to dominate Sc2 in 2018! Yeah sorry, i forgot he played Protoss in 2018. How many times will I have to say that Serral reigned alone while Zerg weren't even reaching ro4 in Code S and that if you removed him you would have had one Zerg title in WCS, one Stats vs Dark and one Stats vs Rogue final? Will you ever stop blindly hating? You'd better choose a more fit title for your next thread. Even without Serral zergs gained a lot more money than terrans in 2018, Maru included. Lambo almost beat TY and put up a good fight against Maru. While Maru could beat Serral with the ravens strat that got nerfed after, he had to resort a lot to 2rax vs Rogue and Dark to beat them in the bo7. ZvP wise, finals vs Stats was a foregone conclusion or almost no matter who won between Rogue and Serral, both would have been favorites (although Serral was the best zerg that year I would favor him over Rogue against Stats). You only say that zerg wasn’t super strong in 2018 and it doesn’t appear utterly wrong, because they somehow got even more OP / dominant in 2019... but they were already slightly favored in 2017 after the hydra buff that propulsed Elazer to a very good results at BlizzCon, and made Rogue looks invincible. So I agree that Serral is a superb player, the GOAT of foreigners (it took a lot of time for someone to dethrone Stephano), and he can beat any player in the world any given day offline (he seems to have troubles vs mines online with the ping?) ; but you can’t really deny he got helped in his legacy runs by the state of the game. Especially imo having to avoid the top terrans / ZvT being slightly Z favored to frankly Z favored, helped him. We see that retrospectively because he got beaten by a lot of terrans now that the matchup is quite even (except maybe lurkers): Clem multiple times, Cure, now ByuN, and I probably forgot one. If you don’t believe me about the money argument, take a look at 2018 earnings, it also shows that while Protoss didn’t have a tournament dominant winner like Serral in EU and Maru in KR, they won more money than terrans overall (Maru included), which confirms that they were not that weak (even had some good runs / got nerfed after a tournament like small IEM?), just didn’t manage to win finals, but made money at all levels of play.
During 2018, Terran was probably the weakest race(except that at HSC XVIII when nobody was used to BCs, Zerg dropped en masse and Serral still won the tournament over Inno) and Protoss could have been the strongest one overall. There is no doubt that Maru carried the race throughout the whole year(still, he faced TY in the finals of Code S S3) but Serral did the same after he stepped up his level of play; both peaked at the expense of Protoss players(Stats, especially) who would have won much more that year if they wouldn't have been present.
No, Rogue beating a great Stats in that ZvP meta wasn't a foregone conclusion and no, TvZ wasn't Zerg favored as you say.
Noting that in late 2020 Serral is losing some ZvT tells you nothing about how his results would have been had he met more Terran in 2018; his victories over Inno and Maru at GSL vs the World and Inno, Bunny, TaeJa at HSC tells you instead he was pretty good at the matchup.
You can't judge players retrospectively through such a big temporal gap, Serral's strongest matchup in 2018 became his worst in 2020 for example: patches, maps, shape of the players have changed.
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bru really sad for Maru, he was clearly fatigued at the end. I guess if the playoffs where in a 2 day spam he woudl have had better chances....
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Northern Ireland23004 Posts
On November 30 2020 07:52 anachy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2020 07:25 Xain0n wrote:On November 30 2020 07:22 JJH777 wrote:On November 30 2020 07:20 anachy wrote:
So this open the question again. Is Byun the Goat? A better candidate than Serral at least. Both are nice jokes. Maybe if we speak of numbers Byun is not in the top. But being goat not about numbers it’s more about play style and feelings.
Byun probably has the most compelling and mystery filled story in SC2, and succeeded doing things his own way.
Plus to that list he’s added the ability to play entire intense series without even blinking, what a man!
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On November 30 2020 11:16 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2020 07:52 anachy wrote:On November 30 2020 07:25 Xain0n wrote:On November 30 2020 07:22 JJH777 wrote:On November 30 2020 07:20 anachy wrote:
So this open the question again. Is Byun the Goat? A better candidate than Serral at least. Both are nice jokes. Maybe if we speak of numbers Byun is not in the top. But being goat not about numbers it’s more about play style and feelings. Byun probably has the most compelling and mystery filled story in SC2, and succeeded doing things his own way. Plus to that list he’s added the ability to play entire intense series without even blinking, what a man!
But didn't he blink once?
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On November 30 2020 07:47 StasisField wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2020 07:44 Penev wrote:Do we actually have genuine Serral haters though, on this site? I really only see people objecting to the GOAT status thing, not that he isn't a great player. And baiting of course, LOTS of baiting I'm honestly not sure. People have definitely been aggressive and hostile towards people praising Serral (and foreigners in general) in the past but it's unclear who or what that hostility stems from.
Funny enough, I've become more of a Serral fan lately partly because he hasn't been flawlessly dominating. I used to find him kind of boring - generally pretty expressionless after each victory, to a point where it almost came off as robotic or indifferent. (I guess it's not surprising that I'm not too much of a Taeja or Innovation fan either lol)
But seeing him show so much emotion during each of his matches now - I can definitely appreciate that and sympathize more with the guy.
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At least Serral lost to the eventual champion  great tournament - fantastic casting by Lambo <3
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On November 30 2020 07:48 Morbidius wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2020 07:44 Penev wrote:Do we actually have genuine Serral haters though, on this site? I really only see people objecting to the GOAT status thing, not that he isn't a great player. And baiting of course, LOTS of baiting Is Serral the best foreigner ever? Yes. Would his career have taken an even bigger nosedive if if wasn't for the good old reliable Protoss punching bags he draws every other tournament? Absolutely. Just look at how he's unable to bring a single WCS EU title home because he doesn't have a Protoss to ride on.
Protoss and Zergs that are not called Reynor. His ZvT seems just too wasteful in terms of ressource lost.
But Byun really was putting on a clinic yesterday. Hope he can continue this performance until Katowice!
+ Show Spoiler +He did just top his group in NeXT Winter as well
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EPT
