On May 20 2008 16:24 evanthebouncy! wrote: I think if done right you can safely expo w/o forge.
I do this all the time. You can expand after 3-5 zeals depending on situation, distance and micro. From there you have a lot of options. Although your tech is slow the zerg has to act, either by expanding or by attempting some sort of allin, and your ability to punish them with mass zeals gives you initiative.
I dunno my problem is mass early hydras, can't seem to have enough cannons and then storm tech was never in time T_T
I assume you are talking about 10/12 (or 10/13, there is no 11/12 as someone mentioned above). Key is constant probe production + constant zealot production, while adding tech buildings when possible. If you do not use your zealots properly you may die to 2 hatch mutas, or 3 hatch speedlings. You don't go stargate unless, you switch after 9 pool speedlings, or nony style expansion.
You must cannon but your main and expansion, unless you explicitely see his tech, like lurkers/mass hydra.
So it leaves you with a decent midgame army - stormers + zeal vs hydras or zeal + archon vs lurk + ling / muta + ling.
You forces may easily patrol around the map (while you keep some stormers at home of course) and deny 3rd expansion, or take your 3rd (which is better vs mass hydras imo).
You are in a point where your skills/rank wont go up with just casual fun play anymore. Every player comes to this eventually unless they have a lot of natural talent. You can either choose to work on your macro, practicing FE builds over and over again and suck up the losses or you can go play Company of Heroes.
On May 20 2008 16:24 evanthebouncy! wrote: I think if done right you can safely expo w/o forge.
I do this all the time. You can expand after 3-5 zeals depending on situation, distance and micro. From there you have a lot of options. Although your tech is slow the zerg has to act, either by expanding or by attempting some sort of allin, and your ability to punish them with mass zeals gives you initiative.
I dunno my problem is mass early hydras, can't seem to have enough cannons and then storm tech was never in time T_T
Yeah. This is a problem. I used this against lastgosu last night and he beat it was mass hydra. It's a timing issue. If you keep massing zees there will be a point where you can smash into his nat before he has the hydra out. I kind of missed the window for this and attacked too late but I still fucked him up, killed most his hydra, a lot of drones, all his sunks and killed an expansion, all while cannoning at home and getting darksair out. But mass hydra + micro + slow storm > cannons. The alternative is to tech very fast (leaving yourself open to ling allin) but allowing you to block his expansion with darks and have cannonstorm out for the hydra.
Basically you need to know exactly what he is doing and get the timing perfect. You want to make either very few zealots or a lot of zealots. If you make a lot you need to know exactly when to attack. My problem was that he was posturing with some speedlings so I felt i needed to block a speedling run through. By the time I worked out his build and attacked with the zealots he'd gotten too many hydra out (although I still did a lot of damage).
I won the series 2-1 though and lastgosu has been practicing for WCG so I'm still pretty hyped :D
On May 20 2008 16:24 evanthebouncy! wrote: I think if done right you can safely expo w/o forge.
v 2 gate expo the correct response for zerg is to take an expo himself with speedling pressure, get +1 carapace when toss gets +1 attack, and play slow tech mass units. the initial lack of drones is not a problem as zerg can go 4 hatch pure drones once his ling count is enough to contain the protoss
taking an expo without forge has several drawbacks, 1. most likely u'll die to pure speedlings, 2. if somehow the map allows u to defend without a cannon zerg will get +1 before u, making ur mid-game very miserable, 3. if u want to expo fast and keep zealot pressure, just do a simple FE +1 speedlot build, its better in econ, tech, upgrades, and unit count, just about everything.
2 gate followed by forge expo is only good if u managed to block zerg's ramp with early zealots, (12 hatch build having to cancel the hatch) and limit him in 1 base, in other cases good toss tend to prefer teching up after pressure, it puts toss on the offensive, keeps the +1 advantage, and the expo timing really isn't that much later.
the point of 2 gate is early pressure and damage, while it is good to have a back up plan, u should always focus on doing damage cuz that's the point of the build, no damage = zerg pulling ahead
I recently started becoming more active again (read: playing like 5 games a day), and, while being only at very low ranks atm, 2-gating IS viable.
Then again, I was playing back in 2003 already when not every1 was gaying with FE 24/7, so I guess I'm just a bit more used to the timing of 2gate. Despite that FE suits my style a lot better.
I'll update you when (if) I can climb back to my former ranks
On May 21 2008 23:30 Chill wrote: Yes you can expo without Forge in several situations safely.
What would you (or anyone else) say these situations are? After a 2 gate -> nexus, when would you decide to finally build the forge and why? Assuming you can't determine the Zerg's Lair tech through a probe scout, and you're lacking in information, what would you tech first (citadel -> archives -> storm or stargate)?
Obviously you can't go straight into nexus against a hard 3 hat ling pump--2 gate defense that emphasizes sunkens will give you more room to expand. If you see a hard 3 hat ling in response to 2 gate, would you try to -> forge -> cannon -> nexus or tech from 1 base for a bit (on the way to archons) before getting the nexus? I think that if you're guessing tech after 2 gate pressure -> nexus, probably cannons in front (stop lurkers and hydra, cover part of the mineral line) + tech to sair would be the best bet. Remaining zealots can block massling access to the cannons anyway. Any other opinions?
No forge expand is extremely vulnerable in my opinion because you don't have +1 going, so the zerg can safely invest in mass ling, needing no gas after their first 104 while they mass hatches, drones, and lings, or saving all gas for muta or lurker. Worse still, they can do so while beating you to upgrades if they chamber before you forge. However, your expansion will probably still be safe. You just won't have map control until you get an archon or speed, at which point you probably will have invested in a forge anyway.
Most zergs don't think like this, though. Just be careful, because it is a threat.
Many people might think that after Zealot rush they are behind but Zerg uses all of his larvaes to lings and is forced to do Sunkens and so on. he is really behind. If he will try to overmass u, his economy will be WRECKED, if he goes into ressurection his eco, u will be able to have good army at short time.
2 gate is viable forms of it allow to create chokes for easier defence agnist early lings and of course zelot>2lings so i mean 2 gate is perfetly valid to maco with zerg also to harass the zerg to make him throw down more then he wants to
2 gate is valid just have to rember to expo, tech and harass not just sit on your zelot superiority 12 pool it would force the zerg to make sukens to help defence 9 pool its becomes harder if the zerg goes fast speed and has decent micro but as long as your on par with him overall it shouldn't be too suffering
EPT
