EPT[H] 2 Gate PvZ
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cava
United States1035 Posts
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Divinek
Canada4045 Posts
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hymn
Bulgaria832 Posts
If he goes 9 pool -> ling speed you can't really go out with zeals cause you'll be run by speedlings in your base and then the fun for him starts. As for options after being beaten, I prefer some really really aggressive build like the +1 speedlot you said cause if I try to play it safe and exp I get lurkered and I can't really expand to another gas so I lose. | ||
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Boblion
France8043 Posts
So atm i have a lot of fun with some weird 1 gate bo ( fast reaver drop ), mass zeal goon from one base, or some funny post fe bo like goon/reav. Nevertheless i'm still a really bad player, but with this kind of bo you can beat players better than you because they will expect classic 2 gate / fe +1 timed speedlot rush / bisu build. Creativity > skill sometimes. | ||
KwarK
United States41640 Posts
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MiniRoman
Canada3953 Posts
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micronesia
United States24491 Posts
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w3jjjj
United States760 Posts
generally the lower ur skill level the better 2 gate will work. on most macro maps today with long distance between bases 2 gate really isn't that good, but its not good only if zerg knows exactly how to take advantage of it, and lower to mid level zergs tend to have trouble punishing the protoss for doing 2 gate. anywhere below B level 2 gate is definitely a viable build. if ur pressure failed to kill the zerg u should think about how much damage u've done, if u killed a few drones and possibly a sunken or two then u'll be ahead in econ, forge and expo and keep constant zealot production, being slow in tech won't matter because zerg has to work on econ first and can't punish u for it. if u barely touched the zerg with ur pressure it makes more sense to get gas and tech up to templars and archons, that forces the zerg to go on the defensive and prevents him from taking more expos before he gets mutas or lurkers. | ||
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QuanticHawk
United States32025 Posts
You basically just need semi close positions, and a zerg who likes to do a safe, 12 hatch build a lot. | ||
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LastWish
2013 Posts
You can vary 2 gate depending on your opponent - into more gate, expansion, tech build Personally I think map determines most if it is usable. If the entrance is large, you may pxoxy 9/10 instead. Maps with wide open naturals, or with distant positions aren't good for 2 gate. You can do FE on anymap that does not have more entrances into main, and natural is not wide open, or too far. You 1 gate on maps with small entrances. You can forge cannon +1 first on any map. | ||
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BluzMan
Russian Federation4235 Posts
On May 18 2008 18:47 hymn wrote: 2 gating is viable on close locations and when the z goes 12 hatch 12 pool, IMO. If he goes 9 pool -> ling speed you can't really go out with zeals cause you'll be run by speedlings in your base and then the fun for him starts. As for options after being beaten, I prefer some really really aggressive build like the +1 speedlot you said cause if I try to play it safe and exp I get lurkered and I can't really expand to another gas so I lose. The reverse of what this man said. | ||
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Shauni
4077 Posts
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
And 2 gate should pretty much beat down 9pool . I mean, its not a hard counter, but it gives you an advantage. Don't be overly cautious because the Zerg will have sacrificed a lot to get those 6 lings (because he will do it expecting to force you to build cannons) and won't be able to match your macro until his hatch is finished. This gives you a nice window to exploit and cause some damage. Of course, 9pool is playable as Zerg but there is a disadvantage. 12pool draws even with 2gate. | ||
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MiniRoman
Canada3953 Posts
On May 20 2008 00:14 Plexa wrote: yea i was under the impression that 2gate is considered inferior to 12hatch/pool because the Zerg is able to get a monster econ up while you delay your own for Zealots. This of course assumes that the Zerg is competent and not a total noob. Just don't invest to heavily in zealots and feint as much as humanly possible to force sunks while you catch up in tech. Well assuming we're talking 10/12 gate you can keep constant probes up the entire time while slowing Zerg drone count (assuming they pump lings while your pumping lots, if not then there's a great chance you'll break their face at 5 or 7 lots). 2 gate zeal also transitions into a tech build nicely quite nicely. By the time your core is finally up tech up to sair/citadel, add some cannons incase of an offtime muta build (WHICH WILL KILL YOU IF YOU ASSUME IT WONT COME!!!), By the time your expansion is finally up you will have a shitload of probes and you'll be ready to power off 2 base also, because of your opening you'll know exactly what the Zerg has and they will still only be at 2 base. And now you have the advantage. It's a totally different game style but I think it leaves the P with a bigger advantage in mid game. It's much easier to play against a smaller sized zerg. MUCHHHH easier. Edit: Dont try with bad zeal micro. Even if you have good zeal micro and the zerg has even better ling micro it can all go wrong! Generally I find zeal vs lings easy in early game situations though. Force those sunks and kill if they droned a little to carefree! | ||
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BluzMan
Russian Federation4235 Posts
The first way is 9/9 or 9/10 - this is a "rushy" build, to execute it properly you need to halt probes for a very long time, but this nets you early and many zealots at the same time. The purpose of this build is to attack, so you bring 2-4 probes with your zealots at the moment of your initial attack as well. This kind of build is indeed strongest vs 12 hatch, and probably bolstered by proxied gateways. But this build is more or less do or die, so I don't think it's what the op is looking for. 10/12 or 11/12 is a polar build. It gets later zealots with a much stronger economy. It doesn't do well vs a 12-hatcher who knows what he's doing. You could probably force him to invest something in defense, but at best, you will be having a later tech than 1 gate with a questionably slowed zerg (who won't probably be slowed too much). A normal reaction of a zerg player here would be still a tech, but with less drones. Thus, if you choose to back down, he will have his tech at the same time while yours will be slowed. It might lead to unpleasant situations where you'll have a very late expansion because you will have to go all the way to the required tech (obs or archons) before having the cannons at the expo set up. If you choose to press him, more often than not, you're just going nowhere. Your best bet is probably just make a shitton of zealots, block the passage to your choke and expand, setting up a forge at the same time. It's hard to explain, you have four resource sinks here (expansion, forge/cannons, tech, zealots) and choosing what to spend money on first totally depends on how much damage you've done and what the zerg is doing. However, vs 9 pool you will be in a strong position - watch NonY's FPVODs to clarify, just defend your choke, and very soon you will outgrow him because the number of lings a 9-pooling Z can produce is vastly inferior to a 12-hatcher. 9 pool is really not the best thing to do vs a non-FE toss, 1 gate or 2 gate. The only case where it's not this way are extremely short distances (his lings will come before you will be able to block your choke) and/or wide choke. But with a wide choke you'll be FE'ing anyway. | ||
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cava
United States1035 Posts
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ShaLLoW[baY]
Canada12499 Posts
On May 20 2008 10:14 cava wrote: Thanks for all the insight guys, and the build I have been doing regarding the post above me is 9/10, and I usually inflict a decent amount of ling loss and at least one sunken loss. Since this thread I've been working on trying to take my expo and cannon while forgoing gas for a bit longer while still pumping zels. This has been doing much better than when I would immediately tech after a failed 9/10. Many people have referenced Nony having a video demonstrating, could someone help me out with a link? Thanks again. http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?id=66510 These are all 2gate against 9pool if I remember correctly. | ||
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evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
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KwarK
United States41640 Posts
On May 20 2008 16:24 evanthebouncy! wrote: I think if done right you can safely expo w/o forge. I do this all the time. You can expand after 3-5 zeals depending on situation, distance and micro. From there you have a lot of options. Although your tech is slow the zerg has to act, either by expanding or by attempting some sort of allin, and your ability to punish them with mass zeals gives you initiative. | ||
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evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
On May 20 2008 16:49 Kwark wrote: I do this all the time. You can expand after 3-5 zeals depending on situation, distance and micro. From there you have a lot of options. Although your tech is slow the zerg has to act, either by expanding or by attempting some sort of allin, and your ability to punish them with mass zeals gives you initiative. I dunno my problem is mass early hydras, can't seem to have enough cannons and then storm tech was never in time T_T | ||
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