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Canada11178 Posts
This:
I don't really think US foreign policy should be governed by what makes us look good in the eyes of "the world", but rather by what keeps our interests forefront. Destablizing the largest US-friendly country in the region hardly does this.
Doesn't seem all that very different from this:
Iran just seeks to expand its own influence in the region, and has little regard for anyone else's welfare. Except that, of course, it is another country's other than America's interests.
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United States41514 Posts
On March 01 2015 01:58 hannahbelle wrote: But because of that, we know have a situation where Russia is invading a sovereign nation (that Obama promised to defend if they demilitarized several years earlier let's not forget)
Just to be clear, hannah thinks that Obama wrote the Budapest Memorandum following the fall of the Soviet Union and is now failing to live up to his obligations under it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances
Thanks Obama!
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On March 01 2015 07:02 Falling wrote:This: Show nested quote + I don't really think US foreign policy should be governed by what makes us look good in the eyes of "the world", but rather by what keeps our interests forefront. Destablizing the largest US-friendly country in the region hardly does this. Doesn't seem all that very different from this: Show nested quote + Iran just seeks to expand its own influence in the region, and has little regard for anyone else's welfare. Except that, of course, it is another country's other than America's interests.
Exactly. I vote for people that will represent my best interests. Yours are a distant second.
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On March 01 2015 06:41 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2015 06:02 hannahbelle wrote:Today’s vote by a bitterly divided Federal Communications Commission that the Internet should be regulated as a public utility is the culmination of a decade-long battle by the Left. Using money from George Soros and liberal foundations that totaled at least $196 million, radical activists finally succeeded in ramming through “net neutrality,” or the idea that all data should be transmitted equally over the Internet.
The final push involved unprecedented political pressure exerted by the Obama White House on FCC chairman Tom Wheeler, head of an ostensibly independent regulatory body. “Net neutrality’s goal is to empower the federal government to ration and apportion Internet bandwidth as it sees fit, and to thereby control the Internet’s content,” says Phil Kerpen, an anti-net-neutrality activist from the group American Commitment. The courts have previously ruled the FCC’s efforts to impose “net neutrality” out of bounds, so the battle isn’t over. But for now, the FCC has granted itself enormous power to micromanage the largely unrestrained Internet. Back in the 1990s, the Clinton administration teamed up with Internet pioneers to promote a hands-off approach to the new industry and keep it free from discriminatory taxation. Many still prefer that policy. Nicholas Negroponte, founder of the MIT Media Lab and the charity One Laptop Per Child, says that net neutrality “doesn’t make sense” because “the truth is, not all bits [of data] are created equal.” Will Marshall, head of the Progressive Policy Institute (which was once a favorite think tank of Clinton Democrats), issued a statement that net neutrality “endorses a backward-looking policy that would apply the brakes to the most dynamic sector of America’s economy.”
But such voices have been drowned out by left-wing activists who want to manage the Internet to achieve their political objectives. The most influential of these congregate around the deceptively named Free Press, a liberal lobby co-founded in 2002 by Robert McChesney, a University of Illinois communications professor. His goals have always been clear. “At the moment, the battle over network neutrality is not to completely eliminate the telephone and cable companies,” he told the website SocialistProject in 2009. “But the ultimate goal is to get rid of the media capitalists in the phone and cable companies and to divest them from control.” Earlier in 2000, he told the Marxist magazine Monthly Review: “Our job is to make media reform part of our broader struggle for democracy, social justice, and, dare we say it, socialism.” When I interviewed him in 2010, he admitted he is a socialist and said he was “hesitant to say I’m not a Marxist.”
In essence, what McChesney and his followers want is an Unfree Press — a media world that promotes their values. “To cast things in neo-Marxist terms that they could appreciate, they want to take control of the information means of production,” says Adam Therier of the blog TechLiberation. Certainly McChesney seems blind to the dangers of media control on the left. In 2007, he co-authored a remarkable survey of the media under Hugo Chávez’s already clearly thuggish regime in Venezuela: “Aggressive, unqualified political dissent is alive and well in the Venezuelan mainstream media, in a manner few other democratic nations have ever known, including our own.”
Despite his astonishingly radical goals, McChesney’s Free Press group was able to leverage foundation cash and academic “research” into an influential force behind net neutrality. Julius Genachowski, President Obama’s first FCC chairman, hired Free Press’s Jen Howard as his press secretary. The FCC’s chief diversity officer, Mark Lloyd, has co-authored a Free Press report demanding regulation of political talk radio. The FCC’s National Broadband Plan cited research from Free Press and other left-wing groups backing net neutrality more than 50 times.
The battle for control of the Internet isn’t over. Over two-thirds of the House and Senate are on record as opposing FCC regulation of the Internet, and a new president could change the policy overnight in 2017 even if the courts don’t block it. But for now, the “media reform” movement led by McChesney and his allies can claim bragging rights for their Saul Alinsky–style outflanking maneuver on Internet regulation. They financed the research behind the idea, installed their political allies in power, got the government to consider them experts on the issues they cared deeply about, and finally ran roughshod over both Congress and an initially reluctant FCC chairman. Conservatives should study how the Left won on this issue even as they acknowledge and fight the illegitimacy of many of the results. SourceAnother side of "net neutrality". That is one of the most laughably inaccurate descriptions of net neutrality I have ever read. PS. I am not interested in who lobbied for what and how many fringe group crackpots are on either side of the argument. Buy the bit I bolded basically states that net neutrality is basically the exact opposite of what net neutrality actually is. Hence why they named it "net neutrality". Slick marketing job to get uninformed people to buy into it. Same thing with the Patriot Act, the Affordable Care Act, etc.
You ignore the larger picture. This guy founded a group that has had prominent members move on to occupy key influential positions within the FCC power structure. And yet you still believe that his comments have zero relevance to the actual intent of the "net neutrality" regs advocated by his group and pushed by his former members now within the FCC? Even you shouldn't be blind enough to ignore that reality.
This isn't crazy haired alien guy type stuff. This is the essence of how policy is formed in the US.
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On March 01 2015 07:59 hannahbelle wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2015 07:02 Falling wrote:This: I don't really think US foreign policy should be governed by what makes us look good in the eyes of "the world", but rather by what keeps our interests forefront. Destablizing the largest US-friendly country in the region hardly does this. Doesn't seem all that very different from this: Iran just seeks to expand its own influence in the region, and has little regard for anyone else's welfare. Except that, of course, it is another country's other than America's interests. Exactly. I vote for people that will represent my best interests. Yours are a distant second.
I think the distance you see between them is at the root of the problem.
Anyways, I can't speak as to why he said it, but he said it, so I'll give him credit.
On the Senate side of the Capitol, the House disarray brought scorn from Democrats and Republicans alike. “Hopefully we’re gonna end the attaching of bullshit to essential items of the government,” Illinois GOP Sen. Mark Kirk, who’s up for reelection in 2016, told TPM. “In the long-run, if you are blessed with the majority, you’re blessed with the power to govern. If you’re gonna govern, you have to act responsibly.”
Also:
Other Republicans believe that the party should have just passed what the Democrats wanted, a so-called “clean” bill that would not have added immigration riders. “We’ve got him into an arena that is honestly better than the Capitol,” says Oklahoma GOP Rep. Tom Cole. “We can’t achieve a complete victory in Congress. We don’t have the Senate. The President does have a veto. But in the courts we actually could achieve it. … I actually would argue this is actually a little bit of a sideshow,” he added. “I think the decisive arena is the court.”
Source
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On March 01 2015 07:26 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2015 01:58 hannahbelle wrote: But because of that, we know have a situation where Russia is invading a sovereign nation (that Obama promised to defend if they demilitarized several years earlier let's not forget)
Just to be clear, hannah thinks that Obama wrote the Budapest Memorandum following the fall of the Soviet Union and is now failing to live up to his obligations under it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_AssurancesThanks Obama! No, he did not write it, but it is patently obvious why presidents should honor treaties signed by predecessor governments/administrations.
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United States41514 Posts
On March 01 2015 09:23 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2015 07:26 KwarK wrote:On March 01 2015 01:58 hannahbelle wrote: But because of that, we know have a situation where Russia is invading a sovereign nation (that Obama promised to defend if they demilitarized several years earlier let's not forget)
Just to be clear, hannah thinks that Obama wrote the Budapest Memorandum following the fall of the Soviet Union and is now failing to live up to his obligations under it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_AssurancesThanks Obama! No, he did not write it, but it is patently obvious why presidents should honor treaties signed by predecessor governments/administrations. Which means that Obama promised to defend the Ukraine when they demilitarized in 1994? Because that's a very specific claim. I don't disagree that commitments carry between presidents but the claim he made was "Obama promised them that they would get American defence if they demilitarized". It sounds to me a lot more like hannahbelle heard that defence was offered in exchange for joining the non proliferation treaty and assumed that Obama made that offer in classic "thanks Obama" style. He made a very specific claim which was factually untrue in a way that should have been obvious to any idiot.
Furthermore
The Budapest Memorandum was negotiated as a political agreement. It refers to assurances, not defined, but less than a military guarantee of intervention.[1][19] According to Stephen MacFarlane, a professor of international relations "It gives signatories justification if they take action, but it does not force anyone to act in Ukraine."[18] In the U.S. neither the George H. W. Bush administration nor the Clinton administration was prepared to give a military commitment to Ukraine, nor did they believe the U.S. Senate would ratify an international treaty, so the memorandum was agreed as a political agreement.[19]
In short, just because he heard the words promise and Obama on Fox doesn't give hannahbelle a license to rewrite history and to insert Obama into events that happened over two decades ago.
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On March 01 2015 09:57 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2015 09:23 xDaunt wrote:On March 01 2015 07:26 KwarK wrote:On March 01 2015 01:58 hannahbelle wrote: But because of that, we know have a situation where Russia is invading a sovereign nation (that Obama promised to defend if they demilitarized several years earlier let's not forget)
Just to be clear, hannah thinks that Obama wrote the Budapest Memorandum following the fall of the Soviet Union and is now failing to live up to his obligations under it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_AssurancesThanks Obama! No, he did not write it, but it is patently obvious why presidents should honor treaties signed by predecessor governments/administrations. Which means that Obama promised to defend the Ukraine when they demilitarized in 1994? Because that's a very specific claim. I don't disagree that commitments carry between presidents but the claim he made was "Obama promised them that they would get American defence if they demilitarized". It sounds to me a lot more like hannahbelle heard that defence was offered in exchange for joining the non proliferation treaty and assumed that Obama made that offer in classic "thanks Obama" style. He made a very specific claim which was factually untrue in a way that should have been obvious to any idiot. Furthermore Show nested quote +The Budapest Memorandum was negotiated as a political agreement. It refers to assurances, not defined, but less than a military guarantee of intervention.[1][19] According to Stephen MacFarlane, a professor of international relations "It gives signatories justification if they take action, but it does not force anyone to act in Ukraine."[18] In the U.S. neither the George H. W. Bush administration nor the Clinton administration was prepared to give a military commitment to Ukraine, nor did they believe the U.S. Senate would ratify an international treaty, so the memorandum was agreed as a political agreement.[19] In short, just because he heard the words promise and Obama on Fox doesn't give hannahbelle a license to rewrite history and to insert Obama into events that happened over two decades ago. You're welcome kwark. Come back when you know what you're talking about. Ongoing project. Or doesn't that count?
Source
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United States41514 Posts
On March 01 2015 10:09 hannahbelle wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2015 09:57 KwarK wrote:On March 01 2015 09:23 xDaunt wrote:On March 01 2015 07:26 KwarK wrote:On March 01 2015 01:58 hannahbelle wrote: But because of that, we know have a situation where Russia is invading a sovereign nation (that Obama promised to defend if they demilitarized several years earlier let's not forget)
Just to be clear, hannah thinks that Obama wrote the Budapest Memorandum following the fall of the Soviet Union and is now failing to live up to his obligations under it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_AssurancesThanks Obama! No, he did not write it, but it is patently obvious why presidents should honor treaties signed by predecessor governments/administrations. Which means that Obama promised to defend the Ukraine when they demilitarized in 1994? Because that's a very specific claim. I don't disagree that commitments carry between presidents but the claim he made was "Obama promised them that they would get American defence if they demilitarized". It sounds to me a lot more like hannahbelle heard that defence was offered in exchange for joining the non proliferation treaty and assumed that Obama made that offer in classic "thanks Obama" style. He made a very specific claim which was factually untrue in a way that should have been obvious to any idiot. Furthermore The Budapest Memorandum was negotiated as a political agreement. It refers to assurances, not defined, but less than a military guarantee of intervention.[1][19] According to Stephen MacFarlane, a professor of international relations "It gives signatories justification if they take action, but it does not force anyone to act in Ukraine."[18] In the U.S. neither the George H. W. Bush administration nor the Clinton administration was prepared to give a military commitment to Ukraine, nor did they believe the U.S. Senate would ratify an international treaty, so the memorandum was agreed as a political agreement.[19] In short, just because he heard the words promise and Obama on Fox doesn't give hannahbelle a license to rewrite history and to insert Obama into events that happened over two decades ago. You're welcome kwark. Come back when you know what you're talking about. Source That article was missing the part where Obama promised to militarily intervene in the Ukraine in exchange for demilitarization which was the entirety of your claim. It also still would involve a time travelling Obama so at this point I don't know why you don't go for broke and blame Obama for not using his powers to kill Hitler.
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On March 01 2015 10:09 hannahbelle wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2015 09:57 KwarK wrote:On March 01 2015 09:23 xDaunt wrote:On March 01 2015 07:26 KwarK wrote:On March 01 2015 01:58 hannahbelle wrote: But because of that, we know have a situation where Russia is invading a sovereign nation (that Obama promised to defend if they demilitarized several years earlier let's not forget)
Just to be clear, hannah thinks that Obama wrote the Budapest Memorandum following the fall of the Soviet Union and is now failing to live up to his obligations under it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_AssurancesThanks Obama! No, he did not write it, but it is patently obvious why presidents should honor treaties signed by predecessor governments/administrations. Which means that Obama promised to defend the Ukraine when they demilitarized in 1994? Because that's a very specific claim. I don't disagree that commitments carry between presidents but the claim he made was "Obama promised them that they would get American defence if they demilitarized". It sounds to me a lot more like hannahbelle heard that defence was offered in exchange for joining the non proliferation treaty and assumed that Obama made that offer in classic "thanks Obama" style. He made a very specific claim which was factually untrue in a way that should have been obvious to any idiot. Furthermore The Budapest Memorandum was negotiated as a political agreement. It refers to assurances, not defined, but less than a military guarantee of intervention.[1][19] According to Stephen MacFarlane, a professor of international relations "It gives signatories justification if they take action, but it does not force anyone to act in Ukraine."[18] In the U.S. neither the George H. W. Bush administration nor the Clinton administration was prepared to give a military commitment to Ukraine, nor did they believe the U.S. Senate would ratify an international treaty, so the memorandum was agreed as a political agreement.[19] In short, just because he heard the words promise and Obama on Fox doesn't give hannahbelle a license to rewrite history and to insert Obama into events that happened over two decades ago. You're welcome kwark. Come back when you know what you're talking about. Ongoing project. Or doesn't that count? Source Did you read the article ?
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I mean he has a point though. The deal was pretty much "You give us your nuclear weapons and in return Ukraine gets independence". Now Russia is tearing Ukraine apart and everybody is sitting around watching.
You can't seriously argue that the treaty isn't valid. The thing is barely twenty years old. That's pretty much as young as treaties get.
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United States41514 Posts
He specifically blamed Obama for making that promise, a promise which is 21 years old and was specifically non military. That was what I was objecting to because it is factually false in every conceivable way.
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On March 01 2015 10:22 KwarK wrote: He specifically blamed Obama for making that promise, a promise which is 21 years old and was specifically non military. That was what I was objecting to because it is factually false in every conceivable way. Meh get over it. Ukraines demilitarization from Budapest to the initiatives I linked have been done under the assumption Ukraine would be protected. The last round of weapons destruction in 2012 is another instance. It reaffirms the existence of an obligation. Obama, as the guy at the top, has his name attached to it.
You don't get much more "military" than nuclear weapons...
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On March 01 2015 10:11 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2015 10:09 hannahbelle wrote:On March 01 2015 09:57 KwarK wrote:On March 01 2015 09:23 xDaunt wrote:On March 01 2015 07:26 KwarK wrote:On March 01 2015 01:58 hannahbelle wrote: But because of that, we know have a situation where Russia is invading a sovereign nation (that Obama promised to defend if they demilitarized several years earlier let's not forget)
Just to be clear, hannah thinks that Obama wrote the Budapest Memorandum following the fall of the Soviet Union and is now failing to live up to his obligations under it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_AssurancesThanks Obama! No, he did not write it, but it is patently obvious why presidents should honor treaties signed by predecessor governments/administrations. Which means that Obama promised to defend the Ukraine when they demilitarized in 1994? Because that's a very specific claim. I don't disagree that commitments carry between presidents but the claim he made was "Obama promised them that they would get American defence if they demilitarized". It sounds to me a lot more like hannahbelle heard that defence was offered in exchange for joining the non proliferation treaty and assumed that Obama made that offer in classic "thanks Obama" style. He made a very specific claim which was factually untrue in a way that should have been obvious to any idiot. Furthermore The Budapest Memorandum was negotiated as a political agreement. It refers to assurances, not defined, but less than a military guarantee of intervention.[1][19] According to Stephen MacFarlane, a professor of international relations "It gives signatories justification if they take action, but it does not force anyone to act in Ukraine."[18] In the U.S. neither the George H. W. Bush administration nor the Clinton administration was prepared to give a military commitment to Ukraine, nor did they believe the U.S. Senate would ratify an international treaty, so the memorandum was agreed as a political agreement.[19] In short, just because he heard the words promise and Obama on Fox doesn't give hannahbelle a license to rewrite history and to insert Obama into events that happened over two decades ago. You're welcome kwark. Come back when you know what you're talking about. Source That article was missing the part where Obama promised to militarily intervene in the Ukraine in exchange for demilitarization which was the entirety of your claim. It also still would involve a time travelling Obama so at this point I don't know why you don't go for broke and blame Obama for not using his powers to kill Hitler.
Of course not. Everyone knows that was Elvis.
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United States41514 Posts
On March 01 2015 10:34 hannahbelle wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2015 10:22 KwarK wrote: He specifically blamed Obama for making that promise, a promise which is 21 years old and was specifically non military. That was what I was objecting to because it is factually false in every conceivable way. Meh get over it. Ukraines demilitarization from Budapest to the initiatives I linked have been done under the assumption Ukraine would be protected. The last round of weapons destruction in 2012 is another instance. It reaffirms the existence of an obligation. Obama, as the guy at the top, has his name attached to it. You don't get much more "military" than nuclear weapons... Thanks Obama for making the promise!
And thanks Obama for changing the implication from specifically ruling out military assistance to specifying that military assistance was included by the continuing of the arrangement from 2006.
You lied. Admit it. Or at least go with "my understanding of the obligation between the United States and the Ukraine was flawed as I was unaware that the Budapest Memorandum didn't involve military assistance and wasn't a specific promise made by Obama".
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On March 01 2015 10:38 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2015 10:34 hannahbelle wrote:On March 01 2015 10:22 KwarK wrote: He specifically blamed Obama for making that promise, a promise which is 21 years old and was specifically non military. That was what I was objecting to because it is factually false in every conceivable way. Meh get over it. Ukraines demilitarization from Budapest to the initiatives I linked have been done under the assumption Ukraine would be protected. The last round of weapons destruction in 2012 is another instance. It reaffirms the existence of an obligation. Obama, as the guy at the top, has his name attached to it. You don't get much more "military" than nuclear weapons... Thanks Obama for making the promise! And thanks Obama for changing the implication from specifically ruling out military assistance to specifying that military assistance was included by the continuing of the arrangement from 2006. You lied. Admit it. Or at least go with "my understanding of the obligation between the United States and the Ukraine was flawed as I was unaware that the Budapest Memorandum didn't involve military assistance and wasn't made by Obama". Keep flailing.
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United States41514 Posts
On March 01 2015 10:45 hannahbelle wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2015 10:38 KwarK wrote:On March 01 2015 10:34 hannahbelle wrote:On March 01 2015 10:22 KwarK wrote: He specifically blamed Obama for making that promise, a promise which is 21 years old and was specifically non military. That was what I was objecting to because it is factually false in every conceivable way. Meh get over it. Ukraines demilitarization from Budapest to the initiatives I linked have been done under the assumption Ukraine would be protected. The last round of weapons destruction in 2012 is another instance. It reaffirms the existence of an obligation. Obama, as the guy at the top, has his name attached to it. You don't get much more "military" than nuclear weapons... Thanks Obama for making the promise! And thanks Obama for changing the implication from specifically ruling out military assistance to specifying that military assistance was included by the continuing of the arrangement from 2006. You lied. Admit it. Or at least go with "my understanding of the obligation between the United States and the Ukraine was flawed as I was unaware that the Budapest Memorandum didn't involve military assistance and wasn't made by Obama". Keep flailing. You messed up and showed your total ignorance of the subject matter and all you had to say for yourself was "meh". You're a troll.
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If only the more sophisticated individuals of today had concluded Cold War business of a country freed from the USSR possessing nuclear weapons. You give them up and we'll ... give you assurances for food and blankets should Russia get a new hankering for its lost territories (and our diplomats will throw in some harsh verbage, free). Thanks for the warm fuzzies about nuclear non-proliferation!
Today's foreign policy disasters will prove for decades that the US and NATO are not to be trusted when signing treaties. At least, not anymore.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
george w bush would have laid the smack down on putin and maybe even read his soul for invading another country.
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United States41514 Posts
The individuals of 1994 were the ones that refuses to oblige the US to a military response. I don't wish to defend the appeasement of Russia which is certainly problematic but it's also not strictly speaking Obama's policy.
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