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Vote count:
Fecalfeast (1): Breshke, Breshke
The_Zen_Man (2): Superbia, Fecalfeast, Breshke
loafery (1): abuse, Elvis!
Superbia (1): loafery
Not voting (4): dusts, The_Zen_Man, Rad, abuse
Currently, The_Zen_Man is set to be lynched.
Deadline is Wednesday, Oct 08 9:00pm GMT (GMT+00:00) (in ). Voting is mandatory!
If there are errors, please let us know.
+ Show Spoiler [Vote counter log] +VOTE: abuse voted loafery ( post) VOTE: Elvis! voted loafery ( post) VOTE: Superbia voted The_Zen_Man ( post) VOTE: Fecalfeast voted The_zen_man (The_Zen_Man) ( post) VOTE: Breshke voted The_Zen_Man ( post) VOTE: loafery voted Superbia ( post) WARNING: Breshke changed vote without unvote ( post) VOTE: Breshke unvoted The_Zen_Man ( post) VOTE: Breshke voted Fecalfeast ( post) VOTE: Breshke unvoted Fecalfeast ( post) VOTE: Breshke voted Fecalfeast ( post) VOTE: abuse unvoted loafery ( post)
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Alright, it's late for me and I'm tired, so I'm off.
I'm parking my vote on dusts.
##Vote: dusts
Reasons:
1. If he's lurking mafia, maybe this will help him realize he can't play this game that way.
2. If he's town and doesn't vote, he'll be modkilled and we have the potential of losing 2 townies in day 1.
I'll unvote if he decides to show up and put in some effort.
To be a bit more transparent in who I'm currently most suspicious of:
##FoS: Fecalfeast
##FoS: The_Zen_Man
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Canada11355 Posts
On October 08 2014 16:27 abuse wrote:
EBWOP :
First off,
I like the push on Zen.
It is why I asked Superbia what he thought of Zen's (previously was written as "my post" ) post, since it was 100% saying what my post said.
You like the push on zen but you aren't voting for him? You voted loaf so quickly.
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Canada11355 Posts
On October 08 2014 16:06 Breshke wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2014 15:28 Rad wrote:Btw:
If you change your vote, please ##Unvote before posting another vote (can be done in the same post).
So are you saying you don't believe zen is scum now? Or you think fecal's trying to bus zen to gain town cred? ##UnvoteVote:FecalfeastMy vote on Zen was more for pressure and his dislike of non committal reads he has made. I feel that for the quantity of your reads you have provided a very little amount of information and you only voted for Zen after superbia made a case on him. It feels like you are just trying to cruise by.Show nested quote +On October 08 2014 15:35 Fecalfeast wrote:You want to know the post that really made me vote him? It was by superbia, even. On October 08 2014 10:16 Superbia wrote:On October 08 2014 10:09 Fecalfeast wrote:On October 08 2014 03:51 The_Zen_Man wrote:On October 08 2014 03:29 Superbia wrote:On October 08 2014 02:40 The_Zen_Man wrote:As of now loafey is still highest on my scum list but im not sure if he is just a newbie/bad player or scum. Im gonna see more of his posts before I decide to vote for him or not. For now, i will settle with this.] Mind sharing who else is on your scum list? Right now the list is just loafey, but this is because other people haven't been as active. As ff said, this game is moving too slow, and that is because people haven't been active at all. We still have players that haven't said anything beyond their first day post, which was not that much. @Fecalfeast: I think the reason people have gone after loafrey so hard is because there really isn't that much else to go on. His play has been the most scummy like, and that is probably why everyone is going after him. Right now, i really don't have anyone else in mind at all as scum. If someone does find someone else scummy, please share. Why does this not make you point your FoS (thanks super I was pretending to know what FoS meant) at someone who hopped on the loaf-wagon? "His play is the most scummy-like" As implied by him being the only name on your list. What makes his play scummy like to you? Might I guess that your answer will be 'What abuse said but with less conviction?' On October 08 2014 06:18 The_Zen_Man wrote:On October 08 2014 06:08 Fecalfeast wrote:On October 08 2014 05:06 The_Zen_Man wrote:On October 08 2014 04:44 Superbia wrote:On October 08 2014 04:36 The_Zen_Man wrote:On October 08 2014 04:19 Rad wrote:
[quote]
Isn't that pretty much the only job that town has? To find things that are scummy and pursue them. Any reason you're asking others to do that for you?
You say no one else seems scummy to you, are you suggesting that it's probably loafery or the lurkers that are scum?
Why are you taking the easy route here? It wasn't meant as others doing it for me, rather that others should contribute. Right now there are like 4 people that has only like 3 posts on this thread. I can't really find mafia if i don't have much to go on. I did as much as i could with the info i had at the time. No, im saying that i haven't found anything scummy with the people that have posted other than loafrey. That dosen't mean all mafia are either him or the lurkers, just that i have not found anything suspicious about anyone else. Im not taking any easy route, I have done as much as I can with the given information. You found out that your arguments were already used by others to push loaf. Do you like the people who pushed on loaf for the same reason? Yeah, abuse is probably the one that had most of my arguments already written. I do however not share all of abuses opinions and do believe that he is pushing for loaf too hard. I would for instance not vote on him this early, as it is definetly too early to prove that he is a scum. Better to simply do a FoS, as it will give an indicitation of what you think of the person, but not have all dirt throwback that often comes with voting on someone. What it looks to me like super was really asking is what you think of abuse based on abuse's reads. You say he is pushing a little too hard, why? Mostly it was because of the vote. But i also think that some of his arguments are a little more hardline than mine. I share most of abuses opinions on loaf, but i think the biggest thing we differ on is the whole loaf asking about roles thing. I really think that loaf was merely confused and asking about the rules when he said we all should claim roles, and I believe him when he says it was like that on another game. Your reasoning for differing from abuse's opinion is that you believe he misinterpreted the rules. Nobody is using that fact anymore and the basis of abuse's argument is more on how loaf words his posts, not how he read the OP. I'm still a little gun-shy with voting people like this but you have some things to answer for, zen... Just vote, you can always retract your vote. I am waiting for the man to post and you seriously come to the conclusion that I'm the best lynch target? Are you getting nervous or what? Nervous about what? Why would i be nervous? Why are you so worried about my vote like you quotedShow nested quote +On October 08 2014 10:16 Superbia wrote:On October 08 2014 10:09 Fecalfeast wrote:On October 08 2014 03:51 The_Zen_Man wrote:On October 08 2014 03:29 Superbia wrote:On October 08 2014 02:40 The_Zen_Man wrote:As of now loafey is still highest on my scum list but im not sure if he is just a newbie/bad player or scum. Im gonna see more of his posts before I decide to vote for him or not. For now, i will settle with this.] Mind sharing who else is on your scum list? Right now the list is just loafey, but this is because other people haven't been as active. As ff said, this game is moving too slow, and that is because people haven't been active at all. We still have players that haven't said anything beyond their first day post, which was not that much. @Fecalfeast: I think the reason people have gone after loafrey so hard is because there really isn't that much else to go on. His play has been the most scummy like, and that is probably why everyone is going after him. Right now, i really don't have anyone else in mind at all as scum. If someone does find someone else scummy, please share. Why does this not make you point your FoS (thanks super I was pretending to know what FoS meant) at someone who hopped on the loaf-wagon? "His play is the most scummy-like" As implied by him being the only name on your list. What makes his play scummy like to you? Might I guess that your answer will be 'What abuse said but with less conviction?' On October 08 2014 06:18 The_Zen_Man wrote:On October 08 2014 06:08 Fecalfeast wrote:On October 08 2014 05:06 The_Zen_Man wrote:On October 08 2014 04:44 Superbia wrote:On October 08 2014 04:36 The_Zen_Man wrote:On October 08 2014 04:19 Rad wrote:On October 08 2014 03:51 The_Zen_Man wrote:
Right now, i really don't have anyone else in mind at all as scum. If someone does find someone else scummy, please share. Isn't that pretty much the only job that town has? To find things that are scummy and pursue them. Any reason you're asking others to do that for you? You say no one else seems scummy to you, are you suggesting that it's probably loafery or the lurkers that are scum? Why are you taking the easy route here? It wasn't meant as others doing it for me, rather that others should contribute. Right now there are like 4 people that has only like 3 posts on this thread. I can't really find mafia if i don't have much to go on. I did as much as i could with the info i had at the time. No, im saying that i haven't found anything scummy with the people that have posted other than loafrey. That dosen't mean all mafia are either him or the lurkers, just that i have not found anything suspicious about anyone else. Im not taking any easy route, I have done as much as I can with the given information. You found out that your arguments were already used by others to push loaf. Do you like the people who pushed on loaf for the same reason? Yeah, abuse is probably the one that had most of my arguments already written. I do however not share all of abuses opinions and do believe that he is pushing for loaf too hard. I would for instance not vote on him this early, as it is definetly too early to prove that he is a scum. Better to simply do a FoS, as it will give an indicitation of what you think of the person, but not have all dirt throwback that often comes with voting on someone. What it looks to me like super was really asking is what you think of abuse based on abuse's reads. You say he is pushing a little too hard, why? Mostly it was because of the vote. But i also think that some of his arguments are a little more hardline than mine. I share most of abuses opinions on loaf, but i think the biggest thing we differ on is the whole loaf asking about roles thing. I really think that loaf was merely confused and asking about the rules when he said we all should claim roles, and I believe him when he says it was like that on another game. Your reasoning for differing from abuse's opinion is that you believe he misinterpreted the rules. Nobody is using that fact anymore and the basis of abuse's argument is more on how loaf words his posts, not how he read the OP. I'm still a little gun-shy with voting people like this but you have some things to answer for, zen... Just vote, you can always retract your vote.
Please take a look at the filters of some other people in this game before you say I'm trying to cruise by.
Cute tu-quoque though.
I like the part where my vote is the reason you are pushing me but my defense of my vote is thrown back at me for defending myself.
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Canada11355 Posts
I'm going to bed. I hope zen man gets back before deadline
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On October 08 2014 16:49 Fecalfeast wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2014 16:27 abuse wrote:
EBWOP :
First off,
I like the push on Zen.
It is why I asked Superbia what he thought of Zen's (previously was written as "my post" ) post, since it was 100% saying what my post said. You like the push on zen but you aren't voting for him? You voted loaf so quickly.
There was a reason for that, as I needed to actually push loaf to get a read on him and get some discussions going. And I did get a kind-of read on him.
As for Zen, it is not a wagon I started, though I do agree with it currently.
I am not one to throw my vote around too much. I will vote for him when I am more convinced on the matter. I want to hear his defense, and I have not read the thread as well as I would want to yet.
I did note that everyone's reaction for the case on zen is more of "I want to protect him" compared to "I want to vote for him" when the case was on loaf. Interestingly, even loaf is defending Zen(with not very good reasoning, from what I skimmed through), even though they are the only 2 wagons currently.
I will post a hopefully large post along with my reads and thoughts later.
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Vote count:
Fecalfeast (1): Breshke, Breshke
The_Zen_Man (2): Superbia, Fecalfeast, Breshke
dusts (1): Rad
loafery (1): abuse, Elvis!
Superbia (1): loafery
Not voting (3): dusts, The_Zen_Man, abuse
Currently, The_Zen_Man is set to be lynched.
Deadline is Wednesday, Oct 08 9:00pm GMT (GMT+00:00) (in ). Voting is mandatory!
If there are errors, please let us know.
+ Show Spoiler [Vote counter log] +VOTE: abuse voted loafery ( post) VOTE: Elvis! voted loafery ( post) VOTE: Superbia voted The_Zen_Man ( post) VOTE: Fecalfeast voted The_zen_man (The_Zen_Man) ( post) VOTE: Breshke voted The_Zen_Man ( post) VOTE: loafery voted Superbia ( post) WARNING: Breshke changed vote without unvote ( post) VOTE: Breshke unvoted The_Zen_Man ( post) VOTE: Breshke voted Fecalfeast ( post) VOTE: Breshke unvoted Fecalfeast ( post) VOTE: Breshke voted Fecalfeast ( post) VOTE: abuse unvoted loafery ( post) VOTE: Rad voted dusts ( post)
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Ok, so a lot has happened here and i decided to do an analysis of Superbia, as he has soared in my scum detector. I will post a defense of the points better in the next post, this is more of an analysis.
On October 08 2014 09:53 Superbia wrote:All right. So zen is probably scum here. Show nested quote +On October 07 2014 21:03 The_Zen_Man wrote:
Hi guys, sorry for being absent for a while. I'm afraid i'm going to be absent a few hours after this as well, but after that I can play for real. I thought i should do a quick analysis on loafrey, as he seems the most scummy to my eyes. Why does zen think he had to do a quick analysis on loaf here? Why does he not exercise a little patience and make a better case later on? Why does he feel the need to get a push out on someone quickly (before others)? This feels like mafia trying to get some easy town points by getting some easy reads out. Town has no need to rush here. There is no EoD in sight. Mafia wants to appear townie, how do they do that? By getting out easy reads and easy pushes. This is one of them. Hence, zen is scum. So there is a theme running through zen's post that I want to specifically look at: Zen did not read the thread well. This comes up in a later post during which he exclaims: Show nested quote +On October 08 2014 02:40 The_Zen_Man wrote:
Ok, so I read trough the thread better this time and it seems like most of my arguments, like someone already mentioned, had already been said by abuse. Now, assuming this is true (more on this later), my point of "why did you need to feel the need to rush out a push" becomes more prominent. After all, abuse was already starting a push on loaf. Why would town feel a need to push on loaf here? It's already being done. Again, this is scum trying to get easy town points. This leads me to a contradiction between zen's two posts. You see, zen said that he did not read the thread well before he posted his initial post, but in said post he says: Show nested quote +On October 07 2014 21:03 The_Zen_Man wrote:
But as stated before, saying that you are confirmed townie is very scummy behavior. Show nested quote +On October 07 2014 21:03 The_Zen_Man wrote:It might have been poorly worded or misinterpreted by others, but some of your behaviour after is also kind of strange. This means that zen did read abuse's push on loaf. It was, after all, abuse who stated "saying that you are confirmed townie is very scummy behavior". Moreover, the behaviour "after" was interaction with abuse, which zen claimed he did not read (though he clearly did). He even quotes abuse's push in his push. What is zen doing!? This is such a blatant lie and super scummy. Again, zen is scum. Now, during this entire push zen stays absolutely non-committed in his read. In the end zen only "Finger of Suspicion"s him, which honestly translates to "I will join this wagon if it takes off, lol" for me. If zen is not at all confident in his read, why is he making a push? Again, zen wants to fetch town points here but at the same time does not want to get any shit if he flips town. It feels like zen is making the push here so he doesn't get pinged out for inactivity, which mafia is terrified of. The above reasons are why I am voting for zen and I'm expecting town to vote with me. Let's fucking hit scum d1. ##Vote: The_Zen_Man
Ok, so this is probably the first post that Superbia did that had much content. His first point is saying that I should not have posted at that time and rather waited. But what exactly does he expect town to do? Doing analysis and reads on people helps the discussion go forward and helps in scumhunting. Not wanting this is very suspicious.
He later points out that i say that i did not read trough the thread well and that all of my arguments had already been written by abuse. First of all, i had atleast one argument that abuse had not written about. Super decides to convinietly ignore this to satisfy his case, something not very townlike . I will write more about this in my defense, but right now, i want to address another very important fact. Not long after my post breshke post something that is also similliar to what abuse wrote about loaf. He even admits to that fact below:
On October 07 2014 23:33 Superbia wrote:
Tbh Breshke just kind of did the same.
Why not go after breshke or simply critize him for doing what basically you accuse me of doing? He fits in to what you say I did, repeating what abuse said and doing basically what abuse is doing, but he goes unmentioned by you. It feels like you just went trough the thread and just decided to focus on the first person that you could find without even looking at the similiraties. This is made even more suspicious by the fact that you had posted basically nothing of worth before this and get called out on it. So you decide to find something quick and just rush a vote, even though you critize me for being to rash.
Another thing in the vote post of note is the fact that superbia says that i should not rush a push on loaf, and be more patient, but then he turns around his view at the end of the post and says that i am uncommited. This is such a strange contradiction. Also, breshke was even more uncommited than me in his posts, but super decided to ignore this and just focus on me. Again, this is becaue super needed a case fast, and decided to basically try to make one that was questionable at best.
On October 07 2014 22:11 Superbia wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2014 21:04 Breshke wrote:On October 07 2014 20:54 Superbia wrote:
Also abuse & loaf probably both town. Why do you think loaf is town? It's mostly a gut read plus I'm happy with people pushing on him so far, so I'll let you know when it matters.
This is another very important point. He says he thinks loaf is town, but will give no arguments as to why. In fact, he has given really nothing on worth until someone mentioned this, then suddenly comes up with the case against me.
Im fairly certain that super is mafia, way more than i was of loaf.
##Vote: Superbia
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OKAY SO.
About dusts, he is a friend of mine IRL and I asked him why is he so inactive, and he said he has a really tough time at work at the moment.
As we are nearing EoD and we need to get as much on the table as possible for the best vote we can do, here is my potential mega post.
First off - let's drop the ##FoS stuff.
FoS is a good way for you to point fingers without taking any real responsibility, and we do not want that. If you are confident on your reads and are ready to answer for it, then vote, if not, then keep playing and finding information until you are satisfied with voting for somebody.
In no particular order - my readlist with comments.
1) FecalFeast
at first I really liked this
post of his where he does not want to be associated with Superbia , because I think that this kind of post 90% comes from town. He does not trust superbia enough to want to be associated with him. Scum should be happy to be associated with a townie (if he is scum, he knows who the other scum is, so he should know what superbia's alignment is). This can be faked by scum, but I do not think a newbie scum would think that far and if he did, he wouldn't think that anyone else in the thread would notice this. This is not a strong ready, but it does lean fecal towards town turf for me (obviously, if they are both scum then fecal would also not want to be associated with superbia)
I like that he stayed null on Loaf for the beginning of the game, and I liked that he said that the push itself is good, but people jumping on the wagon so easily is not as good, without any new reasoning. I agree with this.
I really liked called Zen out for at the end of this post I agree with this.
Also, his defense to what Rad is saying seems plausible and genuine.
On to things that I don't like.
This post.
What bugs me about this post, is that he really likes this post, which basically trashes loafery, but still he reads loafery null. If he likes this post so much, why does he not let it influence his read on loaf in any way whatsoever?
As well as the almost-blind-sheep of superbia's case.
Fecalfeast - I have 3 questions for you.
Let's imagine that null is not an option for answers.
What do you think is the alignment of : Elvis, Rad, loafery.
I am reading Fecal as town at this point, but I do want an answer for the above questions, as well as the elvis post reaction.
Superbia
I understand why he does not read loafery as scum at this point.(what he really thinks of loafery can be seen here) Loafery IS a coinflip at the moment, for the most part. (though I would say that there is a bigger chance he is scum than town, i briefly explain the loafery situation later, in his segment).
What he did is understandable, and I would like to clear this up for some people who were pushing some fake suspicions.
He liked the push on Loafery because it made people show their thoughts and made everyone have an opinion on loafery. At that point, it did not really matter what loafery's alignment was, because it was possible to read everyone else in the thread based on their thoughts on Loafery. Which is also, why he kept asking for thoughts on other people except for loafery while the push was happening. He also even asked loafery himself, what were his reads on other people, to which Loafery did not answer to a good enough degree. He also, just like Fecalfeast, caught that Loafery is unwilling to call people scum. He is hesitant. Proven by him wanting to call me scum but not calling me that in this post.
He is confident in his case, and it is not a bad case.
Things I don't like:
+ Show Spoiler + On October 08 2014 07:41 Superbia wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2014 07:29 Elvis! wrote:
1. He heavily concentrates just on defending himself and as mafia do try to do, avoids the questions asked to him by answering different themes from what was actually asked. Day had just begun and he is the center of attention. Don't expect too many genuine reads from someone in this position. He was rather quick to call people town, but everyone has their own play style. Also, FF was rather quick to trust me, wouldn't you think? Nobody commented on that.Show nested quote +2. Another thing about loaf is that I don't like how he's playing like he doens't know some things that were in this thread for the weeks it to to get it started. Especially since he seems to be used to complicated setups, this must be "easy" for him? Talking about how "newbie" he himself is is a very convenient way of distracting people from you. Of course being a newbie should not be read as being scum, it just doesn't sound quite right how he mentions his complicated setups and then talks a whole lot of how they were and how this is different.
Just straight up without telling anyone a proper plan, want everyone to do something as radical as to claim on D1? I've played with some veterans by now and some of them don't even know what roles are in the game by d3. Did he talk about he himself being a newbie? Please link to post.
FF himself did comment on that, and said that he does not want to be pushed together with superbia just because they touched pinkies.
And for the second thing - him not seeing loafer saying that means that he did not read loafery's posts well enough.
Which is partially explained by him thinking that loafery is donkey town, but still, how can he be so sure on the donkey town claim, if he does not read the posts enough to see something like this?
All in all - Superbia seems town to me so far aswell.
Rad
His first posts, questioning why superbia and fecal both called loaf town were good, and follows with good questions towards loaf.
I really liked the way he latched on to zed's words basically saying "If anyone sees anyone scummy please share". I agree that this is a scummy post, and he gets some townpoints from me for pointing this out so quickly.
Asking elvis about the newbie card was also good.
Another note about Rad is that he was the only one to want to discuss dusts at this point in the game. This is a double-edged sword though which can have both town and scum motivations. Please do take note of this though, because his further actions will make it obvious which motivations were in effect here.
What I don't like:
this post
Why would he defend Zen before zen does it himself? What possibly be the reason if he does not know Zed's alignment.
He also does not want to vote until close to EoD, and currently there are no clear thoughts of his on the table about anyone except Fecalfeast (which does not seem like a legit push by the way.) Why is fecalfeast a better candidate than loaf, Zed or dusts? This does not make much sense in my eyes.
What I want from Rad:
1) Thoughts on everyone so far.
2) a vote a decent ammount of time before EoD.. Your words do not mean much. Your votes do. It is not in town's interest to withold your vote until the end when you have to vote. Put down your vote. Explain why you are doing so.
I think he is a good player, he asks the correct questions in most parts, but when it comes to accusing someone, he does it with not good enough reasons, and IMO on the wrong people.
So, current read on Rad: Somewhere between null and scum.
Breshke
Okay I am not going to go the way I did with everyone else here, by the formula of what I do like and what I don't, instead I will go chronologically.
I liked how he questioned loaf on why he does not read the OP and understand the game setup if he has played much harder setups before this. This was a good catch.
Then this happens..
On October 07 2014 15:25 Breshke wrote:
sorry guys ive been fairly sick so my sleep routine is all over the place at the moment.
Loafery why did you decide to refer to yourself as confirmed town? I was actually reading you as town until you said this. You shouldn't try to be using yourself misreading the setup to prove you are town it can easily be faked.
- Okay, good.
Then soon after this happens :
+ Show Spoiler + On October 07 2014 21:54 Breshke wrote:So i also just want to get all my thoughts about Loaf down. At first his dumbtell made me really think he was towny then Show nested quote +On October 07 2014 10:33 loafery wrote:
enough about games i've played on other forums
what are we gonna do about this today, I'm apparently confirmed town we got 3 people here and I'm getting positive vibes from you two so I don't think you two guys are scum nothing really suspicious. Calling himself confirmed towny really gave off bad vibes. Also loaf you say most games you played in were complicated having multiple power role setups so do you not read the OP in most of your games to better understand them? At the end of your post here it seems like you were about to give a read on abuse then kind of didn't. Would you mind teling me your thoughts on him?
Why did he feel the need to say this again out of the blue? This seems scummy.
He then also catches how loaf did not want to call me scum based on the post he did.
So.. it seems like he is not thinking highly of loaf, right..?
He also posts, talking to loaf, questioning loaf's reasoning for calling superbia and fecalfeast town, merely for thinking loaf is town. Why is that townie, but if I read loaf scummy, then that makes me scum, though it is basically the same thing.
This is very correct analysis.
but then.. then.. I don't even.. Then THIS happens.
+ Show Spoiler + On October 08 2014 09:47 Breshke wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2014 09:41 loafery wrote:On October 08 2014 09:34 Breshke wrote:On October 08 2014 09:19 loafery wrote:
Firstly I don't really get what the difference is between calling myself town and confirmed town.
And for abuse to pick up on this and accuse me of being scum seems a little far fetched to me. From my understanding confirmed town is when you have been checked by a cop and the mod has told them you are town. I can't speak for abuse but you calling yourself confirmed town in my eyes seemed like you were trying to ride off your dumb tell of not knowing the setup don't take yourself off the table for day one which is scummy because you shouldn't be trying to confirm yourself you should be trying to find mafia. So what your saying is if a mafia is pushing someone for lynch they would be read as town? No im saying if we all sat here and just said we were town mafia would slowly kill us and they would win. So instead we try and find the mafia and lynch them. Also people pushing lynches gives information after the lynch happens as well so its also good in that way. Of course mafia can push lynches but its the reasons they push lynches for that you have to look at and where they flip there reads and what not. Show nested quote +On October 08 2014 09:25 loafery wrote:On October 07 2014 22:11 Superbia wrote:On October 07 2014 21:04 Breshke wrote:On October 07 2014 20:54 Superbia wrote:
Also abuse & loaf probably both town. Why do you think loaf is town? It's mostly a gut read plus I'm happy with people pushing on him so far, so I'll let you know when it matters. you are awfully staying in the background and letting others do the work while you just ask questions and try to care about twhats going on. I have a scum read on you right now. Also i like this post as i was having much the same thoughts so i am reading you town for it.
I mean seriously? That is all it takes to completely flip and read him as town?
Wow..
Then this post..
What he basically does here, is he defends Zen, and votes him in the same post. I mean.. what?
He then goes along with Rad's read on fecal, based on the fact that fecal is sheeping superbia, even though he does not want to be associated with him. Which would be a good argument if superbia's case was bad, but it isn't. Superbia's case is pretty good. Why is voting based on it bad? It isn't.
He also proceeds to defend Zen. WHY is he defending Zen? Zen's play clearly has flaws at this point. His defense is very much needed otherwise he is the prime candidate for being lynched D1. Why do you defend him, instead of letting him do it himself?
Final thoughts on Breshke:
The problem here is that we only have 2 scum. And he has made a very questionable flip on loaf, AND he defends Zen for no real reason. If there were 3 scum in the game, I would say that this game is solved already. But there are only 2..
Either way, I do not feel that the actions he made are towny.
Currently - Scum read on Breshke.
Zen
Okay first off, saying it blatantly as it is, - His first large post is 100% copied from what I had already said at that point, just all put together in 1 post. I don't even know how to read this, since it has never happened before, but I sure as hell do not feel comfortable with this. Also as Superbia has pointed out, he has basically both read and not read my posts beforehand which is not logical. Put simply - he lied.
Also, as others have previously well pointed out, + Show Spoiler + On October 08 2014 03:51 The_Zen_Man wrote:
@Fecalfeast: I think the reason people have gone after loafrey so hard is because there really isn't that much else to go on. His play has been the most scummy like, and that is probably why everyone is going after him. Right now, i really don't have anyone else in mind at all as scum. If someone does find someone else scummy, please share.
This post is bad and scummy. Town has to find scum themselves, they should not wait for others to do their job for them.
He also says that loaf is his top scum read, and he has no other scum reads, but yet, he thinks that i have gone too hard after him by voting for him. This is contradictory. Why is he partially defending someone who is his only scum read at that point?
Also, this post begs the question. If I, abuse, am town, then why would I be afraid of dirt throwback at me? Why do you, zen, even think this way? Why are you afraid of a person who you think is scum, and are accusing of being scum, would throw dirt back at you? If you are afraid of this, how do you even plan to win the game, by never confronting them? If you think someone is scum - VOTE FOR THEM. that is all you can do as a VT. That is your weapon, and that is a weapon that you should be using.
Also, please take into account everything I wrote about Zen previously, after skimming the thread ( a few posts above).
So far I read Zen as scum.
Elvis!
First off, not game related - Elvis, are you the same ElvisUptown from Q3, who was also from germany? :3
Game related ->
The case on Loaf was okay, but it was an easy case to make, as loaf was already under pressure.
I don't like all the subtle "I am a newbie please do excuse me if i slip up somehow" he is expressing. If you are town you should be confident if you want your voice to be heard, and if you want it to influence the vote. If you are scum on the other hand, sure, you can give excuses as to why people should not read too much into what you say, because you are a newb..
This is a newbie game, everyone here should be a newbie. The only exception, it seems, is that some people have read this Extremely helpful post and some have not.
Another thing I do not quite understand is, if you understand, that the push I did on loaf was mainly to get everyone talking, and to get information on the table for everyone on everyone, as your posts suggest, then why do you not understand, why does Superbia not read loaf as scum? (posts about this can be found in the filter).
All in all - reading Elvis as null. Too early to tell what alignment he's leaning for.
Loafer
Honestly, I do not agree with anything that he has said. All of his reasoning is flawed.
As many have pointed out already..
I will add a few more more things --
Why does he read me as scum, because I pressured him, but he reads Zen as town, and actively defends him, even though Zen has the exact same stance as I do, and he even copied what I said?
Hell, he says that I am trying so hard to lynch him(loafer) but in fact, Zen has had more presence for that than I have.
Then there is also this post. He reads Superbia as scum, because he is, supposedly, lurking in the background, without giving any information. Then he says, in this post, that making huge posts is towny. Superbia made a huge case on Zen. Everything that loaf had on Superbia should have disappeared. But, in his mind, It didn't. Superbia is still scum for the same reasons in his mind, yet the reasons have disappeared already..
Sigh.
Read on loafer - either donkey town or donkey scum. Too early to tell, i think it should be settled later by PoE.
dusts
complete and utter null.
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On October 08 2014 21:28 The_Zen_Man wrote:
( a post about why superbia is supposedly scum )
##Vote: Superbia
Welcome back to the thread!
I am not sure what this post was, basically it just looked like pointing fingers at Breshke, and voting for Superbia.
Looking forward to your defensem, addresing all questions that were posed to you, including why did you lie about reading/not reading my posts.
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On October 08 2014 21:39 abuse wrote:
About dusts, he is a friend of mine IRL and I asked him why is he so inactive, and he said he has a really tough time at work at the moment.
Please do not talk about game-related things outside the game thread. This includes asking your IRL friend why he's inactive and such.
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On October 08 2014 21:43 LoneMeow wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2014 21:39 abuse wrote:
About dusts, he is a friend of mine IRL and I asked him why is he so inactive, and he said he has a really tough time at work at the moment.
Please do not talk about game-related things outside the game thread. This includes asking your IRL friend why he's inactive and such.
Sorry, didn't think it would be so strict.
Just wanted to poke him to play more actively to have a better experience here, and maybe stick with the community after the game D:
Noted though, won't poke him anymore~
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Ok, so this will be were i post my defense.
On October 08 2014 09:53 Superbia wrote:All right. So zen is probably scum here. Show nested quote +On October 07 2014 21:03 The_Zen_Man wrote:
Hi guys, sorry for being absent for a while. I'm afraid i'm going to be absent a few hours after this as well, but after that I can play for real. I thought i should do a quick analysis on loafrey, as he seems the most scummy to my eyes. Why does zen think he had to do a quick analysis on loaf here? Why does he not exercise a little patience and make a better case later on? Why does he feel the need to get a push out on someone quickly (before others)? This feels like mafia trying to get some easy town points by getting some easy reads out. Town has no need to rush here. There is no EoD in sight. Mafia wants to appear townie, how do they do that? By getting out easy reads and easy pushes. This is one of them. Hence, zen is scum. So there is a theme running through zen's post that I want to specifically look at: Zen did not read the thread well. This comes up in a later post during which he exclaims: Show nested quote +On October 08 2014 02:40 The_Zen_Man wrote:
Ok, so I read trough the thread better this time and it seems like most of my arguments, like someone already mentioned, had already been said by abuse. Now, assuming this is true (more on this later), my point of "why did you need to feel the need to rush out a push" becomes more prominent. After all, abuse was already starting a push on loaf. Why would town feel a need to push on loaf here? It's already being done. Again, this is scum trying to get easy town points. This leads me to a contradiction between zen's two posts. You see, zen said that he did not read the thread well before he posted his initial post, but in said post he says: Show nested quote +On October 07 2014 21:03 The_Zen_Man wrote:
But as stated before, saying that you are confirmed townie is very scummy behavior. Show nested quote +On October 07 2014 21:03 The_Zen_Man wrote:It might have been poorly worded or misinterpreted by others, but some of your behaviour after is also kind of strange. This means that zen did read abuse's push on loaf. It was, after all, abuse who stated "saying that you are confirmed townie is very scummy behavior". Moreover, the behaviour "after" was interaction with abuse, which zen claimed he did not read (though he clearly did). He even quotes abuse's push in his push. What is zen doing!? This is such a blatant lie and super scummy. Again, zen is scum. Now, during this entire push zen stays absolutely non-committed in his read. In the end zen only "Finger of Suspicion"s him, which honestly translates to "I will join this wagon if it takes off, lol" for me. If zen is not at all confident in his read, why is he making a push? Again, zen wants to fetch town points here but at the same time does not want to get any shit if he flips town. It feels like zen is making the push here so he doesn't get pinged out for inactivity, which mafia is terrified of. The above reasons are why I am voting for zen and I'm expecting town to vote with me. Let's fucking hit scum d1. ##Vote: The_Zen_Man
I said this in my previous posts, but town is supposed to post analysis and do reads on people. This is what town do. Mafia does not want this, they want to town to have as little to go on as possible. And regarding why I posted it when I knew abuse had critisized loaf is because I wanted to analyse it from fresh eyes. It's always better to hear others point of view on the matter.
He then says I lied about knowing about abuses case. I admitted to the fact that i had not read trough the whole post carefully, but super then completely distorts this. He says I lied about that fact because i knew about abuses case, somehow implying that i have to know either all or none of abuses case. This makes no sense whatsoever. Either super is stupid or trying to get a case going, but it is possible for someone to read some and not all of his posts.
On October 07 2014 15:13 loafery wrote:
Show nested quote +
I first thought there was 5/6 blue roles. I thought it was easy game. ff showed me it wasn't so. I admit my mistake and ff retracts his suspicions. If I were scum why would I even think of getting an easy win. I would havent mentioned anything at all.
You're coming off as very over reactive to my posts. It's all good but I have done nothing wrong.
Scum is trying to look as much of a town as possible, which includes trying to look like you are looking for a town win. As someone who has played this before, you should be well aware of this. Hell, even newcomers now this, so why do you use this faillogic? This is very scum behavior in my eyes.
I mentioned earlier that I had a argument that abuse had not made and this is the one I was talking about. To my knowledge abuse never mentioned the fact that loaf should now that scum would want to look like they want a town win. This creates a big hole in supers argument, as most of his votepost is based on me saying the same thing as abuse.
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On October 08 2014 21:42 abuse wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2014 21:28 The_Zen_Man wrote:
( a post about why superbia is supposedly scum )
##Vote: Superbia Welcome back to the thread! I am not sure what this post was, basically it just looked like pointing fingers at Breshke, and voting for Superbia. Looking forward to your defensem, addresing all questions that were posed to you, including why did you lie about reading/not reading my posts.
I was referring to the fact that breske was in basically the same situation as me, yet super decides to completely ignore this and hard focuses me. I wasn't pointing fingers at anyone, just thought it was really suspicious that he decides to completely ignore him.
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Oh, before i forget. You asked before about the roles thing:
What did I say about loaf asking about roles thing? How can you disagree with it, while implying that you think what he did was fine, when I clearly said that I do not care whatsoever about that part of his posting, and that what buggs me is the confirmed town thing and the post after that?
This is what i was referring to:
On October 07 2014 16:55 abuse wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2014 16:46 Fecalfeast wrote:On October 07 2014 15:14 Fecalfeast wrote:
rad: I never called him confirmed town, I just said I was reading him town based on his reaction to his misinterpretation of the game setup. The only reason I even announced this is because I was reading him scummy for telling everyone to claim.
this is all I really think about loaf On October 07 2014 16:24 abuse wrote:On October 07 2014 16:20 loafery wrote:On October 07 2014 15:25 Breshke wrote:
sorry guys ive been fairly sick so my sleep routine is all over the place at the moment.
Loafery why did you decide to refer to yourself as confirmed town? I was actually reading you as town until you said this. You shouldn't try to be using yourself misreading the setup to prove you are town it can easily be faked. Is there any reason why I can't call myself town? Those two seemed to read me as town so I followed suit. Calling yourself town and calling yourself confirmed town are two different things. I agree with you here, though. He did a scummy move by telling everyone to claim, then he took his words back, because he misinterpreted the game setup (which we have no real proof of, and this can also be faked) which makes you read him as town, instead of null, and then he pushes forward the fact that he is confirmed town, while trying to buddy you and superbia. So what is your stance on him now? Are you reading him as town now? Null? Scum? Also, as you yourself pointed out previously - Show nested quote +On October 07 2014 15:16 Fecalfeast wrote:
also I don't like this association of me and superbia just because we touched pinkies what do you think of this concerning his alignment ?
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On October 08 2014 22:03 The_Zen_Man wrote:Oh, before i forget. You asked before about the roles thing: Show nested quote +What did I say about loaf asking about roles thing? How can you disagree with it, while implying that you think what he did was fine, when I clearly said that I do not care whatsoever about that part of his posting, and that what buggs me is the confirmed town thing and the post after that? This is what i was referring to: Show nested quote +On October 07 2014 16:55 abuse wrote:On October 07 2014 16:46 Fecalfeast wrote:On October 07 2014 15:14 Fecalfeast wrote:
rad: I never called him confirmed town, I just said I was reading him town based on his reaction to his misinterpretation of the game setup. The only reason I even announced this is because I was reading him scummy for telling everyone to claim.
this is all I really think about loaf On October 07 2014 16:24 abuse wrote:On October 07 2014 16:20 loafery wrote:On October 07 2014 15:25 Breshke wrote:
sorry guys ive been fairly sick so my sleep routine is all over the place at the moment.
Loafery why did you decide to refer to yourself as confirmed town? I was actually reading you as town until you said this. You shouldn't try to be using yourself misreading the setup to prove you are town it can easily be faked. Is there any reason why I can't call myself town? Those two seemed to read me as town so I followed suit. Calling yourself town and calling yourself confirmed town are two different things. I agree with you here, though. He did a scummy move by telling everyone to claim, then he took his words back, because he misinterpreted the game setup (which we have no real proof of, and this can also be faked) which makes you read him as town, instead of null, and then he pushes forward the fact that he is confirmed town, while trying to buddy you and superbia. So what is your stance on him now? Are you reading him as town now? Null? Scum? Also, as you yourself pointed out previously - On October 07 2014 15:16 Fecalfeast wrote:
also I don't like this association of me and superbia just because we touched pinkies what do you think of this concerning his alignment ?
What you implied was that I put much emphasis on thinking that he is scum for not understanding the game setup.
What I did, and what you quoted, was asked why does the person read a person more townie than before, because he misunderstood the setup. I did no statements in that post. Nothing that could show what Is my stance on loaf based on that. I asked a question to another player what they think of it.
Also - as for your defense above, I do not think it is a good defense. You say you wanted to post with a fresh perspective, yet you quote both mine and others posts in your case on loafery. And you kind of read my posts about him before, but apparently not really. This does not constitute a fresh perspective.
If you decided to read what I said about him, you should have noticed what I had said, and that what you are saying is the exact same thing.
Why would you even post a huge case, without reading the entire thread up until that point? How can you not be sure that you did not miss anything, and that your case is not filled with flaws, if you did not read things properly?
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On October 08 2014 22:13 abuse wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2014 22:03 The_Zen_Man wrote:Oh, before i forget. You asked before about the roles thing: What did I say about loaf asking about roles thing? How can you disagree with it, while implying that you think what he did was fine, when I clearly said that I do not care whatsoever about that part of his posting, and that what buggs me is the confirmed town thing and the post after that? This is what i was referring to: On October 07 2014 16:55 abuse wrote:On October 07 2014 16:46 Fecalfeast wrote:On October 07 2014 15:14 Fecalfeast wrote:
rad: I never called him confirmed town, I just said I was reading him town based on his reaction to his misinterpretation of the game setup. The only reason I even announced this is because I was reading him scummy for telling everyone to claim.
this is all I really think about loaf On October 07 2014 16:24 abuse wrote:On October 07 2014 16:20 loafery wrote:On October 07 2014 15:25 Breshke wrote:
sorry guys ive been fairly sick so my sleep routine is all over the place at the moment.
Loafery why did you decide to refer to yourself as confirmed town? I was actually reading you as town until you said this. You shouldn't try to be using yourself misreading the setup to prove you are town it can easily be faked. Is there any reason why I can't call myself town? Those two seemed to read me as town so I followed suit. Calling yourself town and calling yourself confirmed town are two different things. I agree with you here, though. He did a scummy move by telling everyone to claim, then he took his words back, because he misinterpreted the game setup (which we have no real proof of, and this can also be faked) which makes you read him as town, instead of null, and then he pushes forward the fact that he is confirmed town, while trying to buddy you and superbia. So what is your stance on him now? Are you reading him as town now? Null? Scum? Also, as you yourself pointed out previously - On October 07 2014 15:16 Fecalfeast wrote:
also I don't like this association of me and superbia just because we touched pinkies what do you think of this concerning his alignment ? What you implied was that I put much emphasis on thinking that he is scum for not understanding the game setup. What I did, and what you quoted, was asked why does the person read a person more townie than before, because he misunderstood the setup. I did no statements in that post. Nothing that could show what Is my stance on loaf based on that. I asked a question to another player what they think of it. Also - as for your defense above, I do not think it is a good defense. You say you wanted to post with a fresh perspective, yet you quote both mine and others posts in your case on loafery. And you kind of read my posts about him before, but apparently not really. This does not constitute a fresh perspective. If you decided to read what I said about him, you should have noticed what I had said, and that what you are saying is the exact same thing. Why would you even post a huge case, without reading the entire thread up until that point? How can you not be sure that you did not miss anything, and that your case is not filled with flaws, if you did not read things properly?
You say he did a "scummy move" by telling everyone to claim. Maybe you meant something different, but you did call his move scummy and to me that felt like you critisized him based on that move. (the move being the whole role thing)
I quoted your post once because i saw that you also wrote about the confirmed town thing. I never quoted anyone else. I only quoted you because i felt the "confirmed town" thing was pretty serious and wanted to emphasize this. And i read some of your posts, yes, but not all. I don't know what is unclear about that. Also, as i pointed out in my defense, by post was not exactly the same, i had atleast one argument that you did not.
And the reason for posting a case without reading the whole thing was simply because i wasn't gonna post in a while and had an oppurtunity then. I clearly said that I hadn't read the whole thread carefully, but I did still come up with an argument you did not so I think that my post was worthwhile, even if it only was one argument.
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On October 08 2014 22:26 The_Zen_Man wrote:
You say he did a "scummy move" by telling everyone to claim. Maybe you meant something different, but you did call his move scummy and to me that felt like you critisized him based on that move. (the move being the whole role thing)
I said it was scummy, and then , in the same post, right after that, basically said that him retracting those words soon after should have brought him back to null, but fecal read him townie after that. So what you thought was wrong.
On October 08 2014 22:26 The_Zen_Man wrote:
I quoted your post once because i saw that you also wrote about the confirmed town thing. I never quoted anyone else. I only quoted you because i felt the "confirmed town" thing was pretty serious and wanted to emphasize this. And i read some of your posts, yes, but not all. I don't know what is unclear about that. Also, as i pointed out in my defense, by post was not exactly the same, i had atleast one argument that you did not.
For making everyone's life simpler, please show that argument.
On October 08 2014 22:26 The_Zen_Man wrote:
And the reason for posting a case without reading the whole thing was simply because i wasn't gonna post in a while and had an oppurtunity then. I clearly said that I hadn't read the whole thread carefully, but I did still come up with an argument you did not so I think that my post was worthwhile, even if it only was one argument.
That didn't end very well did it. Your post was worthwhile, but not because it was one argument. It was worthwhile for the reason why you are under pressure now. If you are actually town, hopefully you take something from this for next game.
At the moment, I personally, am not swayed by your defense. If you want to be cleared, give input on someone who you think is really scummy. Your case on superbia, at best(though I do not even think it does that) just plunks a few holes in his case on you, it does not make superbia scum, so your vote on him does not seem justified, and just feels like you are trying to get back at him. Do you really think superbia is scum, just because he didn't treat you and breshke the same way? You and breshke were not in the exact same shoes, even if you were, why are you yourself not looking at breshke? do you really think that "Superbia is scum, even moreso than loaf". I mean really? Moreso than loaf, even though you made a case like this on him, and objectively your case on superbia is only there because he made a case on you.
What you are doing now, is you are making posts without reading the thread properly, and this is causing confusion. This is anti-town and fits the scum agenda. That is why you are being voted for..
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Vote count:
Fecalfeast (1): Breshke, Breshke
The_Zen_Man (2): Superbia, Fecalfeast, Breshke
dusts (1): Rad
loafery (1): abuse, Elvis!
Superbia (2): loafery, The_Zen_Man
Not voting (2): dusts, abuse
Currently, The_Zen_Man is set to be lynched.
Deadline is Wednesday, Oct 08 9:00pm GMT (GMT+00:00) (in ). Voting is mandatory!
If there are errors, please let us know.
+ Show Spoiler [Vote counter log] +VOTE: abuse voted loafery ( post) VOTE: Elvis! voted loafery ( post) VOTE: Superbia voted The_Zen_Man ( post) VOTE: Fecalfeast voted The_zen_man (The_Zen_Man) ( post) VOTE: Breshke voted The_Zen_Man ( post) VOTE: loafery voted Superbia ( post) WARNING: Breshke changed vote without unvote ( post) VOTE: Breshke unvoted The_Zen_Man ( post) VOTE: Breshke voted Fecalfeast ( post) VOTE: Breshke unvoted Fecalfeast ( post) VOTE: Breshke voted Fecalfeast ( post) VOTE: abuse unvoted loafery ( post) VOTE: Rad voted dusts ( post) VOTE: The_Zen_Man voted Superbia ( post)
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On October 08 2014 22:48 abuse wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2014 22:26 The_Zen_Man wrote:
You say he did a "scummy move" by telling everyone to claim. Maybe you meant something different, but you did call his move scummy and to me that felt like you critisized him based on that move. (the move being the whole role thing)
I said it was scummy, and then , in the same post, right after that, basically said that him retracting those words soon after should have brought him back to null, but fecal read him townie after that. So what you thought was wrong. Show nested quote +On October 08 2014 22:26 The_Zen_Man wrote:
I quoted your post once because i saw that you also wrote about the confirmed town thing. I never quoted anyone else. I only quoted you because i felt the "confirmed town" thing was pretty serious and wanted to emphasize this. And i read some of your posts, yes, but not all. I don't know what is unclear about that. Also, as i pointed out in my defense, by post was not exactly the same, i had atleast one argument that you did not.
For making everyone's life simpler, please show that argument. Show nested quote +On October 08 2014 22:26 The_Zen_Man wrote:
And the reason for posting a case without reading the whole thing was simply because i wasn't gonna post in a while and had an oppurtunity then. I clearly said that I hadn't read the whole thread carefully, but I did still come up with an argument you did not so I think that my post was worthwhile, even if it only was one argument. That didn't end very well did it. Your post was worthwhile, but not because it was one argument. It was worthwhile for the reason why you are under pressure now. If you are actually town, hopefully you take something from this for next game. At the moment, I personally, am not swayed by your defense. If you want to be cleared, give input on someone who you think is really scummy. Your case on superbia, at best(though I do not even think it does that) just plunks a few holes in his case on you, it does not make superbia scum, so your vote on him does not seem justified, and just feels like you are trying to get back at him. Do you really think superbia is scum, just because he didn't treat you and breshke the same way? You and breshke were not in the exact same shoes, even if you were, why are you yourself not looking at breshke? do you really think that "Superbia is scum, even moreso than loaf". I mean really? Moreso than loaf, even though you made a case like this on him, and objectively your case on superbia is only there because he made a case on you. What you are doing now, is you are making posts without reading the thread properly, and this is causing confusion. This is anti-town and fits the scum agenda. That is why you are being voted for..
Me and breshke were in the same shoes, we both had post similliar to yours, difference is that i actually had a new argument as was more commited, something super says was lacking in me. And the reason i don't go after breshke should be obvious. I don't think he is scum because he made that post, and not simply because we both had similliar posts, but because i saw nothing wrong with either of them. If super thinks i am scum because i had a post similliar to yours, he should atleast not discriminate when he does this. Instead he tries to recruit breshke to his cause and hard focuses me.
Honestly, supers vote on me seems much less justified. His main argument right now is that my post was exactly like yours and that I had read your posts beforehand. That is why it is important to note that i had my own argument and that it was not exactly the same, as this is a very big hole in his argument against me.
My case on super could not be made before because he had basically said nothing up until that. I can't really get a read on someone who dosen't say anything of worth can I?
Another important point that i forgot to add to my case against him is the time of when he posted his votepost. He had me on the thread for quite a while and posted no case or gave any indication of what he thinks of me. Suddenly he gets called out on not adding much and he suddenly finds me scummy? Even though i had not posted until my conversation with super on the thread? This is concrete proof that he basically just went trough the thread until he could find something questionable and try to make a case out of it.
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EPT
