EPTThe HotS Terran Help Me Thread - Page 291
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. | ||
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Stabley
United States90 Posts
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KingofGods
Canada1218 Posts
On July 02 2014 02:49 Marathi wrote: A couple of quick questions regarding TvZ: How can I tell if a baneling nest is just a safety precaution or whether they plan to use that aggressively? I guess if he has made it blindly it is most likely for aggression, but sometime I find myself building bunkers for no bust. How many lings off 2 base is a tell for a bust or a lot of aggression? I understand speedlings are pretty good for map control but normally after I see like 10/12 together I assume they're going to get aggressive with them and go for some kind of bane bust. Is there a tell with regards to gas timings/drones on gas for a bane bust? As you might be able to tell I still have trouble reading bane busts until they blow down my front door... At around the 5:30-6 min mark check his nat saturation. If it's full, not likely to be a baneling bust right away. If more than 2 queens, not likely to be a baneling bust right away. But if you are playing on NA and lower than Master league, it's hard to say 100% of the time because people are less than optimized so they do some crazy things sometimes. Good to have 2 bunkers regardless. | ||
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Marathi
298 Posts
On July 02 2014 03:20 Waise wrote: 10/12 lings isn't a tell for a bust, that's a fairly standard amount many players create to defend reaper/hellion harass along with queens. 20+ may be suspect, but even 20 aggressive lings don't mean a bust is coming, they can just be used to defend hellions, harass your 3rd etc. while droning behind it as for the baneling nest, if it's built before lair and you're not doing a push which he's trying to defend with said banelings (this includes hellbat timings), that's almost certainly either a bust or a bad build. most players throw it down with the first 50 gas after lair, because it's a nice safe time and the lair finishing lines up with baneling speed research starting some people say if zerg mines gas past 100 then you should strongly suspect a bust - i disagree with this, a lot of players leave 1-3 drones in gas or simply forget to pull off gas at the right time. as a zerg player i would advocate tons of map vision with hellions as the #1 way to defend busts. if you watch pro terrans doing macro tvz you'll often see the hellions poke toward the third and out in front of the natural to scout for hidden lings and morphing banes. continue sending your reaper(s) into the main for tech info and just be super active with hellions at all times On July 02 2014 04:14 KingofGods wrote: At around the 5:30-6 min mark check his nat saturation. If it's full, not likely to be a baneling bust right away. If more than 2 queens, not likely to be a baneling bust right away. But if you are playing on NA and lower than Master league, it's hard to say 100% of the time because people are less than optimized so they do some crazy things sometimes. Good to have 2 bunkers regardless. Ok thanks guys I'll keep this info in mind in future. | ||
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Mojito99
Germany154 Posts
he seems to praise bio mech as the new big thing for tvz, yet after his videos no one played it anymore and it seems somewhat of a sniper build in proleague. | ||
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Deepflow
United Kingdom15 Posts
Id like to know what composition to aim for to beat pure mass ravens though. I asked the last guy I lost to and he said thor hellbat (for pfs). Im slightly dubious though. Maybe thor viking? If I just try and get my own raven fleet im going to always be behind his though. | ||
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Bulugulu
Israel250 Posts
On July 03 2014 18:17 Deepflow wrote: Hey. Ive lost a few tvts against guys who turtle and go mass ravens with pfs. I think I could have maybe won if I identified it earlier and just won with an early timing, but it is still hard to break mass turrets and pfs with a smattering of tankz. Id like to know what composition to aim for to beat pure mass ravens though. I asked the last guy I lost to and he said thor hellbat (for pfs). Im slightly dubious though. Maybe thor viking? If I just try and get my own raven fleet im going to always be behind his though. If he's turtling then you can probably out-expand him and then make your own switch into mass raven on a better economy. Then you can just try to trade evenly or even worse than even until you win. Thors are nice to mix in vs ravens obviously because they tend to clump up, and it takes a few HSMs to kill thors. So basically, try to contain him, outexpand him and then get a better or equal air army. Also if your economy allows it nukes are a good way to slowly push into him in the lategame and harass him. (See Cure vs Salvation in proleague). | ||
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KonanTenshi
Sweden210 Posts
don't SM medivacs  waste of energy, try to shift click your SM and then you shift click away so it casts the SM at the maximum range, hard to explain hope you understand. | ||
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Kluey
Canada1197 Posts
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Gwavajuice
France1810 Posts
On July 04 2014 14:39 Kluey wrote: Hi guys! I was high masters Protoss in WoL and mid master Zerg in HotS and am now looking to play some Terran. Is there anywhere I can find the standard builds for each match up? First page of this thread, "General -> recommended build per match up" will give you the most standard stuff. Then, for the lastest and most situational/map specific builds, watch proleague vods  Beside this, it's always good to watch Polt's and Taeja WCS vods their builds are always educational and inspiring. You can also get Innovation replays from Acer team story cup. Don't try to copy Maru, he's crazy... | ||
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
On March 20 2013 01:16 TheDwf wrote: One Bunker or 6-7 Marines with micro should be enough to deal with this (1-2 more if there is a Zealot). You can rule out the poke (or at least the fast variants) if he opens 1 gas. Otherwise, your scouting SCV might be able to see the particular Nexus animation showing he's building a MSC. I'm a protoss player and just happened to read this in the OP. The thing is, you can definitely do a 1 stalker + msc poke without a second geyser if you go 13 gate 13 gas. You can also continue stalker production if you delay your nexus. I've been doing this build CJherO has recently done in proleague, where he goes 13 gate, 13 gas, and chronos both stalker and msc before expanding in order to scout with his msc while safely dealing with a reaper at home. Doing a stalker + msc poke would be just a matter of crossing the map upon scouting the lack of a reaper. Granted, it's not what the build is supposed to accomplish, but it shows that it's possible to do a poke off of 1 geyser. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On July 05 2014 03:34 vhapter wrote: I'm a protoss player and just happened to read this in the OP. The thing is, you can definitely do a 1 stalker + msc poke without a second geyser if you go 13 gate 13 gas. You can also continue stalker production if you delay your nexus. I've been doing this build CJherO has recently done in proleague, where he goes 13 gate, 13 gas, and chronos both stalker and msc before expanding in order to scout with his msc while safely dealing with a reaper at home. Doing a stalker + msc poke would be just a matter of crossing the map upon scouting the lack of a reaper. Granted, it's not what the build is supposed to accomplish, but it shows that it's possible to do a poke off of 1 geyser. Thanks, but the OP has been written at the beginning of HotS, so yeah there are now lot of inexact/outdated things. | ||
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PwnSnake
9 Posts
I tried this build in a TvT. My opponent went CC-first, then 3-rax, basically my build but CC-first. My macro was good, whereas he cut 2 SCV's and got a later orbital. But he was able to build more stuff than me right from the start. In the first 8 minutes he was about 1 minute ahead with his rax, add-ons, plus he got 2 gas to my 1 and a 3rd expo. I don't get it. Is the simple answer "CC-first is just better than 1-rax FE in TvT"? Or is there a way I could have punished his expansion once I scouted it at 3:30? (At that point we both had 1 rax, and he already had 2 going up. I don't really understand why he was ahead of me given the SCV/OC differences.) I think I lost because I pushed too late (~10:30) and was too eager to walk into his tanks with MMM. But I'm more curious about what happened in the opening. Replay here. Thanks. | ||
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Xinzoe
Korea (South)2373 Posts
On July 06 2014 03:35 PwnSnake wrote: As a new player I'm focusing on mechanics, so I'm only using 1 build, a gasless 1-rax FE. I know that's better against P than Z/T (although I don't know why). I tried this build in a TvT. My opponent went CC-first, then 3-rax, basically my build but CC-first. My macro was good, whereas he cut 2 SCV's and got a later orbital. But he was able to build more stuff than me right from the start. In the first 8 minutes he was about 1 minute ahead with his rax, add-ons, plus he got 2 gas to my 1 and a 3rd expo. I don't get it. Is the simple answer "CC-first is just better than 1-rax FE in TvT"? Or is there a way I could have punished his expansion once I scouted it at 3:30? (At that point we both had 1 rax, and he already had 2 going up. I don't really understand why he was ahead of me given the SCV/OC differences.) I think I lost because I pushed too late (~10:30) and was too eager to walk into his tanks with MMM. But I'm more curious about what happened in the opening. Replay here. Thanks. well logically since your opponent went CC first he should be ahead in economy because he has a faster double orbital + double SCV production. CC first is the greediest TvPTZ build, 1 rax FE comes next, then reaper FE. as to answer your question CC first and 1rax FE both have advantange/disadvantage with 1 rax FE you can deny scouting because u have a faster marine CC first gives u the best economy, but requires good scouting to be effective CC first can be punished by reaper FE if u have good micro, u can probably win the game. but with 1rax FE (no gas), you wont be able to punish him since a bunker will shut down any marine aggression so which one is better? both viable, but i rarely see CC first on ladder (doesnt mean its bad but the metagame is usually 1 base until 6-7 minute mark) except on alterzim. most TvT is 1 base aggression with marine/hellion/banshee -> expand -> marine tank medivac i'll take a look @ replay atm | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On July 06 2014 03:35 PwnSnake wrote: As a new player I'm focusing on mechanics, so I'm only using 1 build, a gasless 1-rax FE. I know that's better against P than Z/T (although I don't know why). I tried this build in a TvT. My opponent went CC-first, then 3-rax, basically my build but CC-first. My macro was good, whereas he cut 2 SCV's and got a later orbital. But he was able to build more stuff than me right from the start. In the first 8 minutes he was about 1 minute ahead with his rax, add-ons, plus he got 2 gas to my 1 and a 3rd expo. I don't get it. Is the simple answer "CC-first is just better than 1-rax FE in TvT"? Or is there a way I could have punished his expansion once I scouted it at 3:30? (At that point we both had 1 rax, and he already had 2 going up. I don't really understand why he was ahead of me given the SCV/OC differences.) I think I lost because I pushed too late (~10:30) and was too eager to walk into his tanks with MMM. But I'm more curious about what happened in the opening. Replay here. Thanks. In WoL, a common answer upon scouting CC first when you opened 1 rax FE was to build a quick third CC before adding extra rax. | ||
Fecalfeast
Canada11355 Posts
I'm talking about when zerg pushes toward my base with ling/bling and has a handful of mutas (<12) to harass with at the same time except when they have way more blings than lings. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10271 Posts
On July 06 2014 10:31 Fecalfeast wrote: How do I deal with large amounts of banelings in the midgame(before a large mutalisk count) when going bio? I'm at work so no replays but it seems like i have to split like a madman in order to trade somewhat evenly even off creep. Should I add in more hellions/mines and try for a better spot? I'm talking about when zerg pushes toward my base with ling/bling and has a handful of mutas (<12) to harass with at the same time except when they have way more blings than lings. A high number of hellbats works very well against a baneling heavy army without a lot of mutas. You don't have to split them nearly as hard as marines but even just a little will allow you to trade well given you have enough hellbats to keep firing at lings even after the banelings are gone. But other pros prefer mines, so I don't think there is a clear, better option, at least not yet. Some pros even get some thors, not only for mutas, but as mega-marauders, basically they stay put while the bio runs away (much like a siege tank actually) and kill at least several banelings before it's killed (banelings are so cost inefficient against thors, so he has to rely on his lings to take them down, which won't be quick enough to stop the thor from paying off). Or maybe it could be your micro? Some things you could do: When playing defensive, keep 1-3 units in front of your army on hold position, especially marauders as they don't die fast to lings and tank a lot of baneling shots. That prevents him from simply a-clicking, as all his lings and banelings will converge on that point (and thus move towards your army slower). If you're retreating, it forces him to use move command to chase and makes him have to manually explode (which could result in a lot of bad connections or at the least forces him to spend more APM and effort). Otherwise have those 3 stimmed marauders ahead of your army and poking at the zerg army which sends him attack-alert signals when he's trying to macro or set up an engagement and pick off banelings and just go back and forth if he tries to snipe them, while keeping the rest of your army safe and far back. Just throwing out some ideas for micro that isn't just split micro. You can try to identify the way your opponent micros and figure out how best to take advantage of the AI's weaknesses | ||
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Fecalfeast
Canada11355 Posts
On July 06 2014 11:31 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: A high number of hellbats works very well against a baneling heavy army without a lot of mutas. You don't have to split them nearly as hard as marines but even just a little will allow you to trade well given you have enough hellbats to keep firing at lings even after the banelings are gone. But other pros prefer mines, so I don't think there is a clear, better option, at least not yet. Some pros even get some thors, not only for mutas, but as mega-marauders, basically they stay put while the bio runs away (much like a siege tank actually) and kill at least several banelings before it's killed (banelings are so cost inefficient against thors, so he has to rely on his lings to take them down, which won't be quick enough to stop the thor from paying off). Or maybe it could be your micro? Some things you could do: When playing defensive, keep 1-3 units in front of your army on hold position, especially marauders as they don't die fast to lings and tank a lot of baneling shots. That prevents him from simply a-clicking, as all his lings and banelings will converge on that point (and thus move towards your army slower). If you're retreating, it forces him to use move command to chase and makes him have to manually explode (which could result in a lot of bad connections or at the least forces him to spend more APM and effort). Otherwise have those 3 stimmed marauders ahead of your army and poking at the zerg army which sends him attack-alert signals when he's trying to macro or set up an engagement and pick off banelings and just go back and forth if he tries to snipe them, while keeping the rest of your army safe and far back. Just throwing out some ideas for micro that isn't just split micro. You can try to identify the way your opponent micros and figure out how best to take advantage of the AI's weaknesses I like all of these suggestions, yes my micro leaves much to be desired which is why I asked for alternatives to madman splits. I haven't used many hellbats aside from timing attacks and everyone tells me thors are bad but I've lost enough to mass bane that I'll try anything. Picking off banes with a few stimmed rauders sounds like a plan as I'll be around the map trying to fend off creep anyway. Thanks! | ||
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ThaSlayer
707 Posts
Reason being: 1) 2 Hellbats vs 4 Hellions per drop 2) Workers can easily outrun the slow hellbats, whilst the faster hellions can chase down workers. 3) Hellbats have slower attack speed then hellions? And they tend to auto target fighting units around the mineral line, meaning that the first important shot is often wasted on queens or zerglings. Any thoughts? | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10271 Posts
On July 06 2014 14:01 ThaSlayer wrote: Somehow I feel that hellbat drops are not as effective as standard hellion drops. Reason being: 1) 2 Hellbats vs 4 Hellions per drop 2) Workers can easily outrun the slow hellbats, whilst the faster hellions can chase down workers. 3) Hellbats have slower attack speed then hellions? And they tend to auto target fighting units around the mineral line, meaning that the first important shot is often wasted on queens or zerglings. Any thoughts? I always thought hellbat drops vs hellion drops was a very interesting and fun decision to make. You're right, hellion drops are better than hellbat drops at many things. It just really depends on the game and the situation you want to create. For example, you might want to drop hellions to sacrifice to kill some workers and not care if they die. Or maybe you want to pull a zerg out of position and distract him while you get a free move out and attack him elsewhere (if he spots the attack and focuses on that, chances are he won't be kiting your hellbats and they'll be able to kill some lings, a couple roaches, or a queen. Not to mention you only need 200 minerals in hellbats to do this than 4 hellions (2 hellions wouldn't be scary at all). But for general purposes, I do think hellion drops are just more solid and reliable due to their speed and mobility. Hellbat drops can force the opponent to commit a lot of focus to one aspect (such as watching the minimap, being ready to pull his drones, kiting the hellbats and making sure they're actually dead and not just safely picked up and waiting for your workers to come back, etc.) while hellions force the opponent to commit focus to more aspects, but has less chance of making him tunnel vision and neglect other things. On July 06 2014 12:23 Fecalfeast wrote: I like all of these suggestions, yes my micro leaves much to be desired which is why I asked for alternatives to madman splits. I haven't used many hellbats aside from timing attacks and everyone tells me thors are bad but I've lost enough to mass bane that I'll try anything. Picking off banes with a few stimmed rauders sounds like a plan as I'll be around the map trying to fend off creep anyway. Thanks! I'm glad I was of help X) | ||
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BurningRanger
Germany303 Posts
On July 06 2014 14:01 ThaSlayer wrote: Somehow I feel that hellbat drops are not as effective as standard hellion drops. Reason being: 1) 2 Hellbats vs 4 Hellions per drop 2) Workers can easily outrun the slow hellbats, whilst the faster hellions can chase down workers. 3) Hellbats have slower attack speed then hellions? And they tend to auto target fighting units around the mineral line, meaning that the first important shot is often wasted on queens or zerglings. Any thoughts? I'd like to add to Yoshi's comment that it depends on the focus you can give to the drop yourself. If you just throw 4 Hellions into the opponent's mineral line, they may do poorly, because of a bad shooting angle. You usually have to micro the Hellions to do a lot of damage. Also the Hellions will die rather quickly to defender's fighting units, if not microed. Hellbats can pretty much be dropped into the mineral line, set to hold position and they will roast anything coming close, while you can do something else (macro, attack somewhere else, etc.). They're also harder to kill then. So I'd say, if you have the time to micro, drop Hellions. If you just want to drop something, but don't have the time to micro a lot, drop Hellbats. You could also drop Hellions, micro them a little, then transform them into Hellbats, leave them alone and do something else. | ||
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