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On July 06 2014 14:01 ThaSlayer wrote:
Somehow I feel that hellbat drops are not as effective as standard hellion drops.
Reason being:
1) 2 Hellbats vs 4 Hellions per drop
2) Workers can easily outrun the slow hellbats, whilst the faster hellions can chase down workers.
3) Hellbats have slower attack speed then hellions? And they tend to auto target fighting units around the mineral line, meaning that the first important shot is often wasted on queens or zerglings.
Any thoughts?
I would nearly always prefer hellbat drops for four main reasons:
1: Much less forgiving compared to hellion drops because of the unload speed of two hellbats. If opponent doesn't react in time, he will get his entire mineral line roasted. Doing double drop is even more effective.
2: Less micro intensive. Hellions need to get in proper angle to maximise their efficiency where as you can just shift click two medivacs on zerg natural and main mineral lines and attack 3rd/4th with ur main army. You might just aswell forget about drops after you que them.
3: More cost-effective. Simply 4 hellions vs 2 hellbats. 200 more expensive per drop.
4: Less supply intensive: Think about it, if you que two hellion drops at the same time, thats 20 supply missing from your main army, rather than 12 supply with double hellbat drop.
(Only considering hellions/hellbats with blueflame here)
In meantime, you can make better use of hellions for run-bys at forward expansions.
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Hi I'm a gold league terran. I would like to know a good tvz build for ladder that starts on a good economy (some kind of fe?) and can still maintain map presence so the zerg doesn't get too greedy. I've been having trouble with zergs who go up to three bases before I can put on aggression, then they just stomp me with their superior economy. Currently I 1 rax fe in all three matchups, then I go three rax, double gas, then double ebay/ 3rd cc/ 2 rax depending on what I scout.
Thanks
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You need to get hellions out to contest map control vs. zerg. This is my standard tvz build
11 rax
11 gas
reaper
reaper
cc
reaper
factory
reactor
3rd cc
then if you are worried about all in, get 2nd and 3rd rax
if you are not worried, get 2 ebays before additional raxes
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I'm assuming this build is pretty micro intensive with controlling the reapers and hellions? Also, can the number of reapers be adjusted to get hellions out earlier/ later? After the factory switches onto the reactor, do I start a tech lab or reactor on the rax?
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It is micro intensive, but to be honest all you have are reapers at the beginning so it shouldn't be too bad. And then normally you wait until you have 6 hellions before you move your hellions out too.
If you don't want to build 3 reapers, then just go 12 rax, 12 gas and then just build 1 or 2 reapers and then start your factory.
After you switch the factory onto reactor, build a tech lab with the rax. This lets you get stim quick and also build marauders if you see roaches.
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truth be told, i am not sure that you will have the mechanics to make a 3 reaper pressure build worthwhile below masters.
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On July 07 2014 10:34 NexT_SC2 wrote:
Hi I'm a gold league terran. I would like to know a good tvz build for ladder that starts on a good economy (some kind of fe?) and can still maintain map presence so the zerg doesn't get too greedy. I've been having trouble with zergs who go up to three bases before I can put on aggression, then they just stomp me with their superior economy. Currently I 1 rax fe in all three matchups, then I go three rax, double gas, then double ebay/ 3rd cc/ 2 rax depending on what I scout.
Thanks
Like KingOfGods said, hellions are the major map-control unit against zerg. The first suggested build is a slightly more aggressive variant of the normal 3 reaper into hellion (and often banshees) as it has a 11 rax 11 gas instead of 12 rax 12 gas, so choose what you prefer. And as he explained, you don't have to go 3 reapers (which I think may be slightly harder to pull off). You can go 1 or 2 reapers and add a reactor, then add a factory; you will be able to build 2 marines from the barracks before having to switch it to the factory, so that you can deny overlords and such. Or if it's safe, you can opt to go factory then reactor, thus getting the hellions out slightly faster but skipping marines.
However, going 3 reapers is really nice as it not only helps you get out a really fast 3rd CC, but the extra reaper's worth of 60 regenerative HP helps for defending as well as poking zerg and trading damage.
The problem with the build you do is that you get a good amount of army-production buildings (3 rax) *and* double gas before the 3rd CC, meaning that you naturally will have more army but will have a smaller economy. Since marines are vanilla and don't have medivacs yet, it also means that your army isn't actually stronger at that point in time and you won't have map control. Just a tip, when picking a build or deciding what to do after scouting your opponent, consider the order in which you build your first important buildings: 3rd CC, 2nd gas, 2nd and 3rd production buildings, upgrade building(s). This might help you so you don't have to strict-memorize build paths by supply/time.
Regarding waiting for 6 hellions, it's not something you need to do, but unless your macro is exceptionally better than the normal gold player's, like Mojito99 mentioned it's much better to focus on macroing and keeping your units alive than to tunnel-vision and micro too much. Just having and showing (and poking once or twice without committing) your units will be enough to force zerg to make some defense to keep him from droning without danger. In general, 4 hellions is OK to move out but a little risky if you mess up; 6 is a lot more effective than 4 especially considering you only need to wait 30 more seconds. But if you know when his speed will finish (unless he went gasless) then you can keep poking with reapers and hellions and don't need to wait. Only when his speed finishes and you only have reapers and the first 2 hellions aren't there yet do you need to be really careful. But again, it's probably better just to keep the reapers/hellions out somewhere safe but somewhat near his bases and focus on macroing. The threat and fear the units create is enough.
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In TvZ, how do I defend against a 2 Base, all in, with roaches?
I can not for the life of me figure out how to stop those suckers.
Do I immediately cancel my FE CC, make a sim city, and bunker up with marauders and rines?
Or is there another way.
I do not have any replays available at the moment.
Thanks
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On July 08 2014 03:23 HFABamaFan wrote:
In TvZ, how do I defend against a 2 Base, all in, with roaches?
I can not for the life of me figure out how to stop those suckers.
Do I immediately cancel my FE CC, make a sim city, and bunker up with marauders and rines?
Or is there another way.
I do not have any replays available at the moment.
Thanks
are u sure its a 2 base all in or a 3 base but with no drones at third.
You should let your CC finish because if u dont and u hold off all in then u are STILL behind.
But if u made a THIRD CC then you should cancel. Then wall natural using 2 EBAYS + few depots (Ebays have higher hp/mineral ratio and you wont get supply blocked forever if they die). From there you make bunkers + maruader but spread them out. Make a few widow mines, pull SCVs if u have too.
If you are super gosu like taeja then u can target fire clumped up banelings with ur widow mines then it should be ezpz hold
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Oh god, how do I play TvP on Deathwing? I just got absolutely picked apart by an Oracle which, thanks to all the free air space around my base, can come in at any angle. This plus the easy to take 3rd and 4th lead to me getting absolutely stomped.
Not sure about these new maps!
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Man this game was annoying, I am ahead in upgrades, army supply, bases, but I just can't make a good dent in this toss army. My drops are useless and trying to push into colossus/storm is just ridiculous.
I made a fair amount of errors, my initial timing was waaaaaaay too late. Some bad medivac micro. Late transition into ghosts and forgot cloak for ages. Should've made a second starport because production was bad and probably should have lot more barracks. But I was just so far ahead I thought I was in control, then he just pushes me with storms and lasers and wrecks my army.
http://drop.sc/384020
Maybe I need to do like double pronged drops, or cloaked ghosts nukes or something? But how do you deal with turtley protoss deathball?
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Canada8157 Posts
On July 08 2014 07:12 Marathi wrote:Man this game was annoying, I am ahead in upgrades, army supply, bases, but I just can't make a good dent in this toss army. My drops are useless and trying to push into colossus/storm is just ridiculous. I made a fair amount of errors, my initial timing was waaaaaaay too late. Some bad medivac micro. Late transition into ghosts and forgot cloak for ages. Should've made a second starport because production was bad and probably should have lot more barracks. But I was just so far ahead I thought I was in control, then he just pushes me with storms and lasers and wrecks my army. http://drop.sc/384020Maybe I need to do like double pronged drops, or cloaked ghosts nukes or something? But how do you deal with turtley protoss deathball?
You had a good timing to do an SCV pull when you scanned double robo colo, that's when you make non-stop vikings. You had too many medivacs for a push like that, that's why the SCVs are there to absorb the damage so your bio lives. Easy win with more vikings + SCVs
For the next engagement you needed EMP for the storms, and your splits didn't really do much you kind of just move your units around in the storm. Without storm he would have been crushed in that engagement too
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Is there currently any "exact" opening that is considered better for mech ?
To explain myself better : They all seem to be using hellions/banshee, but outside of this, i've seen a lot of variations (1/2 armory, 3rd CC timing, hellion/banshee number...11/11 3 reapers, 12/12 1 reaper reactor 2 marines... Flash used a strange reactor expand recently ; some goes vikings midgame, some stays on banshees, etc), and can't quite understand why some of these are done (like "why is flash doing a marine reactor expand ?"). I am currently looking for openings to see if i can found a more refined than what i'm currently using (the 1 reaper reactor expand Flash used against Life or in proleague couple of months ago, while sometimes not doing the viking switch and staying on banshees for the midgame)
I know it is a kinda vague question that might not have an answer, but well, might as well ask, just in case someone found something i haven't seen while looking for what may be considered the "superior variation" of the current hellion/banshee into mech play. I looked up for this, but there is limited amont of mech games available, and i'm afraid i may have missed something interesting somewhere
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On July 08 2014 08:30 Lyyna wrote:
Is there currently any "exact" opening that is considered better for mech ?
To explain myself better : They all seem to be using hellions/banshee, but outside of this, i've seen a lot of variations (1/2 armory, 3rd CC timing, hellion/banshee number...11/11 3 reapers, 12/12 1 reaper reactor 2 marines... Flash used a strange reactor expand recently ; some goes vikings midgame, some stays on banshees, etc), and can't quite understand why some of these are done (like "why is flash doing a marine reactor expand ?"). I am currently looking for openings to see if i can found a more refined than what i'm currently using (the 1 reaper reactor expand Flash used against Life or in proleague couple of months ago, while sometimes not doing the viking switch and staying on banshees for the midgame)
I know it is a kinda vague question that might not have an answer, but well, might as well ask, just in case someone found something i haven't seen while looking for what may be considered the "superior variation" of the current hellion/banshee into mech play. I looked up for this, but there is limited amont of mech games available, and i'm afraid i may have missed something interesting somewhere
which match up are you talking about ?
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On July 08 2014 03:30 Xinzoe wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2014 03:23 HFABamaFan wrote:
In TvZ, how do I defend against a 2 Base, all in, with roaches?
I can not for the life of me figure out how to stop those suckers.
Do I immediately cancel my FE CC, make a sim city, and bunker up with marauders and rines?
Or is there another way.
I do not have any replays available at the moment.
Thanks are u sure its a 2 base all in or a 3 base but with no drones at third. You should let your CC finish because if u dont and u hold off all in then u are STILL behind. But if u made a THIRD CC then you should cancel. Then wall natural using 2 EBAYS + few depots (Ebays have higher hp/mineral ratio and you wont get supply blocked forever if they die). From there you make bunkers + maruader but spread them out. Make a few widow mines, pull SCVs if u have too. If you are super gosu like taeja then u can target fire clumped up banelings with ur widow mines then it should be ezpz hold
You are correct, and thanks mate!
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On July 08 2014 05:25 Jono7272 wrote:
Oh god, how do I play TvP on Deathwing? I just got absolutely picked apart by an Oracle which, thanks to all the free air space around my base, can come in at any angle. This plus the easy to take 3rd and 4th lead to me getting absolutely stomped.
Not sure about these new maps!
Deathwing should be a veto for anyone not playing Protoss, frankly. It's just bad map design.  I also feel bad for Zergs on that map, especially horizontal spawns.
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You need to get hellions out to contest map control vs. zerg. This is my standard tvz build
11 rax
11 gas
reaper
reaper
cc
reaper
factory
reactor
3rd cc
Can I get the build order by supply? 
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On July 08 2014 12:01 NexT_SC2 wrote:Show nested quote +You need to get hellions out to contest map control vs. zerg. This is my standard tvz build
11 rax
11 gas
reaper
reaper
cc
reaper
factory
reactor
3rd cc Can I get the build order by supply?
I'll see if I can remember it. It's kind of autopilot for me
10 depot
11 rax
11 gas
12 scv
13 scv
14 orbital
14 reaper
15 scv
16 scv
17 reaper
18 scv
19 scv
19 2nd cc
20 scv
21 reaper
22 scv
23 factory
24 scv
25 3rd cc
reactor as soon as 3rd reaper is out (factory will be done slightly before reactor is done)
tech lab on rax
stim
then as I mentioned, get 2nd and 3rd rax or 2 engies in whichever order you desire.
If your 1st reaper gets to your opponents base and he has already mined 100 gas (happens quite often), wall off your natural ASAP. Use your 3rd cc, a bunker, and a couple depots because a whole lot of speedlings will be at your front door pretty much as soon as your 3rd reaper comes out. Alternatively, if you know that a lot of lings are coming you can halt reaper production to get your factory and hellions out quicker.
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On July 08 2014 09:00 JanLui wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2014 08:30 Lyyna wrote:
Is there currently any "exact" opening that is considered better for mech ?
To explain myself better : They all seem to be using hellions/banshee, but outside of this, i've seen a lot of variations (1/2 armory, 3rd CC timing, hellion/banshee number...11/11 3 reapers, 12/12 1 reaper reactor 2 marines... Flash used a strange reactor expand recently ; some goes vikings midgame, some stays on banshees, etc), and can't quite understand why some of these are done (like "why is flash doing a marine reactor expand ?"). I am currently looking for openings to see if i can found a more refined than what i'm currently using (the 1 reaper reactor expand Flash used against Life or in proleague couple of months ago, while sometimes not doing the viking switch and staying on banshees for the midgame)
I know it is a kinda vague question that might not have an answer, but well, might as well ask, just in case someone found something i haven't seen while looking for what may be considered the "superior variation" of the current hellion/banshee into mech play. I looked up for this, but there is limited amont of mech games available, and i'm afraid i may have missed something interesting somewhere which match up are you talking about ?
TvZ (i think life is still a zerg, right ? :p)
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Flash got early marines out (just 2) specifically to hunt down the first overlord that came to his base. Literally, that's the only reason.
If you don't think the zerg will go roaches, then 2 factory blue flame hellion or a hellbat build can wreck havok. If you do think roaches are coming, banshees help against that. Hellion + Banshee still seems to be the most popular mech opener. And then you build mass thors if you see spire or mass tanks if you see roaches.
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EPT
