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On July 08 2014 15:50 KingofGods wrote: Flash got early marines out (just 2) specifically to hunt down the first overlord that came to his base. Literally, that's the only reason.
If you don't think the zerg will go roaches, then 2 factory blue flame hellion or a hellbat build can wreck havok. If you do think roaches are coming, banshees help against that. Hellion + Banshee still seems to be the most popular mech opener. And then you build mass thors if you see spire or mass tanks if you see roaches.
The question about the marines was more an example, and i was talking about his recent no reaper marine -> reactor build (where he gets like 4 marines in total) just for information :p
My problem isn't with tanks or thors or things like this. Just want to know if there is something that is considered "better" in terms of refined opener (like 1 rax no gas -> constant hellion/banshee + 3rd -> 2 armories -> 2 factories was in its time. Nowadays there is so much variations of FE into hellion banshee into mech that i wonder if any is considered a better one)
edit : oh and well, i should add that i am talking about ladder play especially. Which is why i want to know if there is any version of these openings i should favor, because anyway i know hellion/banshee is the best thing to do.. but it doesn't give me the details :p
To break it into smaller questions, if it helps (i realize the thing wasn't really well worded) :
Which basic opener ? (CC first, 1 rax nogas, 11/11 3 reapers, 12/12 1 reaper reactor 2 marines, etc) Which commitment to hellion / banshee ? (Flash get 4 hellions before his 3rd, 2 after, then cut it until he get his production, and no more than 3 banshees before switching to double viking production) Third timing ? some players get it before starport, or before first banshee. Some will get 6/2 before third, some (ladder heroes usually) will make it after armory/fact 1-2 armories ? For a long time, 2 armories was the norm, and allows for a really strong (obviously) later game. But recently i've seen players go for single armory.
I am currently using the 1 reaper reactor 2 marines expand from Flash vs Life (sandisk, King Sejong), with 2 armories Once again, i know it is a really vague question that might not have any definitive answer, and i am asking "just in case" something was luckier than me in his searchs (because i wasn't, they personally left me in doubt --')
On July 08 2014 08:30 Lyyna wrote: Is there currently any "exact" opening that is considered better for mech ?
To explain myself better : They all seem to be using hellions/banshee, but outside of this, i've seen a lot of variations (1/2 armory, 3rd CC timing, hellion/banshee number...11/11 3 reapers, 12/12 1 reaper reactor 2 marines... Flash used a strange reactor expand recently ; some goes vikings midgame, some stays on banshees, etc), and can't quite understand why some of these are done (like "why is flash doing a marine reactor expand ?"). I am currently looking for openings to see if i can found a more refined than what i'm currently using (the 1 reaper reactor expand Flash used against Life or in proleague couple of months ago, while sometimes not doing the viking switch and staying on banshees for the midgame)
I know it is a kinda vague question that might not have an answer, but well, might as well ask, just in case someone found something i haven't seen while looking for what may be considered the "superior variation" of the current hellion/banshee into mech play. I looked up for this, but there is limited amont of mech games available, and i'm afraid i may have missed something interesting somewhere
atm I prefer 1rax FE, get a factory with reactor, add a tech lab factory for blue flame and then a 3rd factory with a reactor again allowing massive hellion pressure, also a starport for a viking to clear overlords and a medivac for drops, if you scout roach pressure which does good against this, simply lift one of the reactored factorys and get a tech lab for 2tank 2hell 1 banshee production which should stop roach aggresion.
I'm not sure how good this is compared to the standard reaper hellion, but this can definitly throw off some zergs with the aggresion you put out.
On July 08 2014 16:34 Lyyna wrote: My problem isn't with tanks or thors or things like this. Just want to know if there is something that is considered "better" in terms of refined opener (like 1 rax no gas -> constant hellion/banshee + 3rd -> 2 armories -> 2 factories was in its time. Nowadays there is so much variations of FE into hellion banshee into mech that i wonder if any is considered a better one)
There are more options than at the end of WoL, so there is no undisputed unique standard build but:
Personally I prefer 1 rax FE for the safety of 4 Marines and their overlord hunting potential. Reapers add to the strength of Hellions/Banshees harass but prevent you from denying over scout.
Which commitment to hellion / banshee ? (Flash get 4 hellions before his 3rd, 2 after, then cut it until he get his production, and no more than 3 banshees before switching to double viking production)
This one depends on how aggressive or macro-oriented you want to be. If you cut units you have obviously little chance to achieve something with your harass, but with continuous Hellions/Banshees production you might have the opportunity to break a lings/queens defence, particularly if you went 3 Reapers and/or the Zerg player spent too generously his energy on Tumors. Obviously, there is no point in committing against defensive Roaches.
Third timing ? some players get it before starport, or before first banshee. Some will get 6/2 before third, some (ladder heroes usually) will make it after armory/fact
Just like above, depends on your intentions. The later the third, the more you need your units to yield something. Units before CC means pressure into third, CC before Starport means your Banshees rather serve a defensive purpose.
1-2 armories ? For a long time, 2 armories was the norm, and allows for a really strong (obviously) later game. But recently i've seen players go for single armory.
Now that 2-2 timings are mostly extinct and that games are longer, single Armory is preferable for me. It also gives you a bit more units against sharp Roaches timings or Roaches/mutas harass, or gives you the opportunity to strike with a few extra units should the opportunity arise.
Happy plays almost exclusively mech against Zerg at the moment, so you can check his stream. He often plays 2 fact BFH but uses Hellions/Banshees too.
Thanks, had a lot of doubts about these things last days, but in the end it appears i overthinked the problem... as you say, there is now more options. About the 1 rax FE though... which version of it get 4 marines (i assume you do not delay the factory here) ? From what i remember the CC before 2nd supply version wasn't getting this amount of marines (not quite sure on this one, since even during the glorious 1 rax FE days i was used my own special 16 gas expand and never really studied 1 rax gasless --' )
edit : just in case, wanted to ask (this is a total theoretical question): have you seen this weird reactor expand Flash has done recently (no reaper, transition into hellion/banshe -> mech) in TvZ ? What could be the reasoning behind this, compared to a 1 rax FE or his old 1 reaper CC reactor 2 marines ?
On July 08 2014 20:51 KonanTenshi wrote: Just curious if someone could update OP with builds and such.
Also how do you deal with muta cloud when playing bio?
Muta clouds in the lategame are really hard to deal with, and when the zerg gets to your base with his 24+ mutas then the "problematic" phase of the game begins for you. There are several things you can/should do to help you defend. First of all I like to queue a drop/drops the moment the mutas get offensive. The drop will hopefully pull the mutas back or do damage if he refuses to go back. Second, once you see that the zerg has reached critical muta numbers, make many more missile turrets. If the zerg is running around without overseers try to ambush him with widow mines by predicting where he'll attack next. This is kinda unreliable but can be very rewarding. Leaving a thor at your main or at an important vulnerable spot can help alot. And putting down a couple of defensive widow mines next to your turrets can catch the zerg offguard as well. When he first hits you and you're unprepared there's no substitute to splitting your army really well, always predicting where the mutas will head off next and cut them off. This way you can sometimes corner them, but a good zerg won't stop his harass until you begin cutting him off in this manner. Ideally - be so aggressive that the zerg doesn't ever get to harass you with his mutas.
About the 1 rax FE though... which version of it get 4 marines (i assume you do not delay the factory here) ? From what i remember the CC before 2nd supply version wasn't getting this amount of marines (not quite sure on this one, since even during the glorious 1 rax FE days i was used my own special 16 gas expand and never really studied 1 rax gasless --' )
that's quite funny cause I was about to bring this 16 gas opening I also use, allowing continuous SCV & marine production as well as factory @4'15
12rax 16gas OC 17marine depot mules + scv production restart CC @ 3'50 2nd gas facto reactor >>>> 2x hellion started @5'45 (as well as starport reactor & armory...)
Hey guys, I was wondering, is the build that MKP used against DRG in PL on Merry Go Round a good build ? The one where he goes directly to 3 raxs, skiping the factory. It looks like a good build to hold some roach harass, but is it viable in a more standard game ?
On July 08 2014 08:30 Lyyna wrote: Is there currently any "exact" opening that is considered better for mech ?
To explain myself better : They all seem to be using hellions/banshee, but outside of this, i've seen a lot of variations (1/2 armory, 3rd CC timing, hellion/banshee number...11/11 3 reapers, 12/12 1 reaper reactor 2 marines... Flash used a strange reactor expand recently ; some goes vikings midgame, some stays on banshees, etc), and can't quite understand why some of these are done (like "why is flash doing a marine reactor expand ?"). I am currently looking for openings to see if i can found a more refined than what i'm currently using (the 1 reaper reactor expand Flash used against Life or in proleague couple of months ago, while sometimes not doing the viking switch and staying on banshees for the midgame)
I know it is a kinda vague question that might not have an answer, but well, might as well ask, just in case someone found something i haven't seen while looking for what may be considered the "superior variation" of the current hellion/banshee into mech play. I looked up for this, but there is limited amont of mech games available, and i'm afraid i may have missed something interesting somewhere
Just to be brief, hellion/banshee is still the standard, but it can be weak to all-ins. If you go reactor marine expand you can add tanks. It's a safe build that counters zergs who want to all-in a hellion/banshee opener. Mech players want map control with hellion/banshee so zergs may predict it and all-in; Flash may be trying to predict an all-in and blind countering.
The amount of reapers you want depends on your micro and the map. You can make 1-3. An 11/11 timing is slightly less economic but comes a little earlier; it's just a mixup that can end up doing more simply by surprising your opponent. If you have good micro you can make good use of this surprise. Or like Dwf said you can also go 1rax expo or even CC first. 1rax expo is safer in a lot of ways because roach timings can be a soft counter to reaper builds (again depends on map and wideness of natural, etc.) and you can repair your bunker but he'll kill some scvs and at least break even. So 4 marines is better than reapers in some cases. But if there's a lot of cliff space or such and you're confident in your micro, going reapers and harassing can make up for it being weaker than having 4 marines.
The timing of your 3rd CC is a little weird. Earlier CC means you're greedier yes, but in many cases it can actually make you safer. For example, he all-ins you; your early 3rd CC finishes and helps wall off, and he has to kill all but ~5 scvs or else you'll still be ahead with 3 OCs for Mules (basically 15 workers) and 3 OCs for quick SCV production. You can get an early 3rd CC with 3 reapers and put the CC at the natural wall to help wall off, or if he's going gasless (or not fast speed, aka 6;00 or later) then you can hide it in your main so he can't guess how greedy he can be since he doesn't know how greedy the terran is being.
1 vs 2 armory: 2 armory lets you get a strong 2/2 push and is more lategame oriented, but starting with 1 armory allows you to get up your 2nd and 3rd factory faster. When would you want to do this? Let's say you want to take 3 base really quick and hold it, and do a big push (like double armory players do with 2/2). Or you expect him to all-in with mass roaches and it's hard to keep a 3rd so you get more tanks by going only 1 armory.
Going 1 armory also allows you to be more aggressive with hellions. You can morph them into hellbats and attack/harass. Since you add your 2nd/3rd factory faster, you can do this more reliably as you can get more units back at home to defend.
Banshees vs vikings: Sometimes maps are so open that you'll need ~4 banshees to help stop mass roach attacks from killing you (usually denying at least the third base). Banshees are nice for map control; you can snipe queens or hatches, but if you don't like or want that you can go for earlier vikings which helps defend vs mutas and punishes zerg by killing overlords if he goes mass swarm host with no muta. 4 banshees helps a mech player be a lot more aggro early, by going mostly thor/hellbat with no or few tanks, as the banshees' infinite dps density really helps vs a mass roach defense.
Aside from the hellion/banshee opener there is also a Blue Flame / Hellbat drop opening that players like Strelok used that is now stronger with the patch, but I haven't seen koreans use it in tournaments or even on streams some reason.
A lot of the stuff just depends, hope this helps a little! A lot has to do with deciding what's best for the map and what your opponent will do; pick the ones that help your strengths, do well on the maps, and will most likely counter what your opponent will try to do.
Could anyone flesh out for me what the recommended production quantities are in TvT for marine/tank? When going mech, for example, I know it makes sense to go fact --> sport --> fact --> 2-3xfact depending on situation, but I don't know what I'm looking to get to when playing marine/tank / biotank. How many facts and rax and when should they be added? What number in the late game?
On July 09 2014 05:51 Andannius wrote: Could anyone flesh out for me what the recommended production quantities are in TvT for marine/tank? When going mech, for example, I know it makes sense to go fact --> sport --> fact --> 2-3xfact depending on situation, but I don't know what I'm looking to get to when playing marine/tank / biotank. How many facts and rax and when should they be added? What number in the late game?
It's normal to stay on 1 factory and starport when going for banshees, then adding a 2nd and 3rd factory at the same time after your natural is established.
For marine/tank, try to shoot for 5 rax, 1 fact and 1 port off 2 base and 7 rax, 2 factory and 1 port off of 3 base. If it gets really late game I like to add up to 4 factories and ~10 barracks and a few more orbitals.
Are ghosts ESSENTIAL for a meching player in TvP? I really don't want to build them but I feel like I might need them? For example, archon tempest ht destroyed my mech army (viking raven thor hellbat) but I want to know if there's a way other than ghosts to beat something like that?
For Protoss/Zerg I usually go reaper FE, and most of the time they are going straight tech on either one or two bases, and zerg will just mass roaches, and expand to a 3rd/4th base while I am still trying to rebuild.
On July 09 2014 12:49 TheGloob wrote: Are ghosts ESSENTIAL for a meching player in TvP? I really don't want to build them but I feel like I might need them? For example, archon tempest ht destroyed my mech army (viking raven thor hellbat) but I want to know if there's a way other than ghosts to beat something like that?
As a meching player since forever and someone who's scavenged every TvP mech game played at a pro level and observed many situations, I will say: No. However, picking ghosts as your main support unit (compared to adding banshees/ravens) is a really solid option. They're not hard to use, they're threatening, they have multiple purposes, and give lots of burst which can scare the protoss into not committing to a fight or punish him for committing to a fight. They also do decent damage against air units (for example ghosts with a couple medivacs can deal with a few surprise void rays) and their ability to cloak and threat of sniping obs and doing lots of damage is great. Not to mention nukes.
Anyways, skipping ghosts can work -- it will depend on the map and what style/comp the protoss is going as well as what style you are going (thor based or tank based, and then ghost support vs starport support). Of course, ghosts have their cons too -- for example, going for an air support force can get you map control and harass the protoss (killing canons quite easily) and really pull his army somewhere he needs to protect, allowing you to move your ground army into a great position.
For archon tempest ht, it can be really hard to fight if you let the army get big and get a good position on the map. In that situation, I won't say you *need* ghosts but they are a great option. The burst is much needed to immediately start controlling Tempest numbers, as well as lots of EMPs/Snipes to deal with HTs and to punish heavy archon armies (if you have enough ghosts against mass archon it's hilarious). And they do decently vs Tempests as well. It's definitely possible to deal with those scary protoss armies without ghosts, but I feel like it's much easier to just go ghosts every TvP.
It depends a lot on the composition/map/style/strategy. Ghosts can really give a lot of midgame power and have multiple uses and cover many options the opponent may choose, so I'd recommend them. Also, sometimes it may seem the protoss army is unbeatable and it may be a mistake actually to think it's your composition; it could be that you had a way to punish and prevent the protoss from achieving a certain composition (in this case what you mentioned). So don't give up too early if you don't want to use ghosts, you can find another way For example using PDDs and enough vikings to kill enough tempests and then using the rest of the energy for turrets to protect your ground army. Or keeping up constant nuking to get rid of his canons and pylons and get map control, and if he ever has a lack of canons then you can run 20 hellions somewhere, morph em, and kill a base or kill his production/tech, etc.
On July 09 2014 13:05 HFABamaFan wrote: I am sick and tired of this bronze rush BS.
For Protoss/Zerg I usually go reaper FE, and most of the time they are going straight tech on either one or two bases, and zerg will just mass roaches, and expand to a 3rd/4th base while I am still trying to rebuild.
Finally got past a roach/ling bust on two bases.
Any suggestions?
Thanks
For Zerg, most of it just involves seeing if he's actually droning, if he has more than 100 gas mined, and if he is getting a third. Once you recognize he's behind in economy (whether he's bad or doing something aggressive) get up walls, bunkers, and tanks. If it's ling bling you could defend with hellions and/or widowmines. Sometimes it hits early enough that you just have to abandon your natural and stay up in your main; that's fine. Sometimes a wall at the natural can slow him down while you evacuate and sit at your main anyways. It depends on micro as well, but the key is scouting those 3 things, getting tanks, and making sure you're ready to repair.
For Protoss, it's much trickier, but I have a few vids that will really make scouting and defending protoss simpler and less frustrating (hopefully)!
He plays mech but the openings/concepts are the same.
On July 09 2014 12:49 TheGloob wrote: Are ghosts ESSENTIAL for a meching player in TvP? I really don't want to build them but I feel like I might need them? For example, archon tempest ht destroyed my mech army (viking raven thor hellbat) but I want to know if there's a way other than ghosts to beat something like that?
To give my own two cents (high master meching player , writer of 2 big TvP mech guides) : I essentially agree with Yoshi. You can skip them, but they're good to have.
What i recently started to do is to get a relatively late (~~14m) ghost academy, staying on 1 rax production all game long, and aiming for "only" 4-5 ghosts. The problem is that without them, dealing with the kind of composition you mentioned is really painful. In WoL you could use your tanks with focus fire instead, but tepests killed that possibility. Using hellions/banshees to kill his HT is another option but you need to micro so they don't shoot at archons. Overall the only solution without ghosts is just to spread as much as possible (no air units above your ground, if possible ! Don't let him AOE everything so easily !) and outmass him, but versus this composition (or archon-immortal based compositions), it is not really easy
Thanks Lyyna and Yoshi I'll start experimenting more with ghosts as it seems they can definitely be worth it. I strive to mech as successfully as you both some day ^_^ thanks again
Are there any 'viable' TvZ openers that do not involve hellions or banshees? They seem required to stop creep spread and early map control, but I would like alternatives. For 1rax FE specifically, is the usual followup also hellions?
I saw a guy once skipping the hellions to get faster production out.
went something like this (I can be very wrong)
reaper expand.
get widow mines from fac and get earlier raxxes/upgrades or w/e you want to do with the extra money. transitions into a pretty sweet push. Although I'm not sure how legit it really is.
EDIT:
You don't get reactor on your factory untill later in the game.
EPT
For example using PDDs and enough vikings to kill enough tempests and then using the rest of the energy for turrets to protect your ground army. Or keeping up constant nuking to get rid of his canons and pylons and get map control, and if he ever has a lack of canons then you can run 20 hellions somewhere, morph em, and kill a base or kill his production/tech, etc.
I'll start experimenting more with ghosts as it seems they can definitely be worth it. I strive to mech as successfully as you both some day ^_^ thanks again
