EPTIs it worth the effort to try and save the CC or should I cancel the CC immediately and make it on the high ground? is there a way to hold it off (since it usually hits before or as the first hellions are spose to come out which isn't quite enough)?
The HotS Terran Help Me Thread - Page 295
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terran4lyfe
United States72 Posts
Is it worth the effort to try and save the CC or should I cancel the CC immediately and make it on the high ground? is there a way to hold it off (since it usually hits before or as the first hellions are spose to come out which isn't quite enough)? | ||
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Jazzman88
Canada2228 Posts
On July 16 2014 09:18 terran4lyfe wrote: Is there some way to hold off speedlings off a 14pool+gas (against a 12-12 reaper fast expand on low ground). Same question for 12 pool. Even if I scout it I don't feel like whatever I try is correct. Sometimes I'll attempt a bunker, even tucked by the main ramp, but it's never done in time (and if I want any units inside besides the reaper(s) i have to either cut hellions or delay tech lab) and even when it is 10-12 speedlings easily surround and kill it. Rarely I can finish the CC if the zerg micros improperly, but usually I'll either lose workers from pulling them/have to cancel the CC. Is it worth the effort to try and save the CC or should I cancel the CC immediately and make it on the high ground? is there a way to hold it off (since it usually hits before or as the first hellions are spose to come out which isn't quite enough)? I'd like a little more context: is the Zerg following his 14/14 with a Baneling all-in, a Roach all-in, a big speedling flood, or just a more normal double expand after pressuring yours? Ideally speaking, you would try to finish the CC if you could. I generally send my first Reaper along a path to the Zerg base that runs the direct attack path that pool-first builds have to take, so that even if they ARE attacking, I can always start to kill off lings and otherwise micro against the pressure rather than find out when the lings hit the CC. I think it's going to depend very heavily on the map, though. I don't know what the exact timing is, but my gut tells me you might be looking at a 5:00-5:15 speed timing? That's going to cut it very close in terms of being able to finish the CC. I would suggest a flow of experiments and choices: 1. Play with trying to micro Reapers versus the slow lings until speed hits in order to finish the CC. If he floods speedlings, you lift and wait on the high ground for sufficient Hellion numbers to retake the natural and play a normal game. 2. If this proves untenable, experiment with doing an ultra-normal 3CC build, with as late a cancel as possible and rebuilding in the main along with the 'third' CC which now functions as a sort of delayed high ground natural. Again, play out a very normal game if possible. 3. If all this is absolutely not working (but I don't see why it shouldn't with effort), then you'll need to start sending out an earlier SCV scout to know whether it is necessary to build on the high ground or not. I frown on adjusting builds normally, but if there's nothing else that is saving you, you may just have to bite the bullet. | ||
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Pursuit_
United States1330 Posts
On July 16 2014 09:57 Jazzman88 wrote: I'd like a little more context: is the Zerg following his 14/14 with a Baneling all-in, a Roach all-in, a big speedling flood, or just a more normal double expand after pressuring yours? Ideally speaking, you would try to finish the CC if you could. I generally send my first Reaper along a path to the Zerg base that runs the direct attack path that pool-first builds have to take, so that even if they ARE attacking, I can always start to kill off lings and otherwise micro against the pressure rather than find out when the lings hit the CC. I think it's going to depend very heavily on the map, though. I don't know what the exact timing is, but my gut tells me you might be looking at a 5:00-5:15 speed timing? That's going to cut it very close in terms of being able to finish the CC. Optimal execution of 14gas 14pool finishes Metabollic Boost around 4:50, while CC finishes around 5:10. With proper reaper micro it might be possible to keep the CC alive, but if he starts his lings across the map around 4:40 and just tanks a few reaper shots I don't think you're keeping the CC alive and it's super important to not risk the reapers because they're necessary to hold a 14/14 baneling bust with reaper expand. I would just cancel the low ground CC as soon as you see no expansion and rebuild it on the high ground, and unless depot+depot+reactor gives you a full wall off I wouldn't swap the factory onto the reactor immediately either, just make 2 maries and a hellion at a time. edit: I suppose with the first reaper (which arrives around 4:00-ish iirc?) you could tell if there's gas still be mined or not and soft contain until 4:40 or so... idk, numbers are too close for my tastes though. | ||
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kamimaiku
22 Posts
If it's as intended, then maybe there is faster way than just clicking an icon with CC? Like Tab for selecting type of units within CG (I wonder how it works in this case)? | ||
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KingofGods
Canada1218 Posts
I'm not exactly sure what CG stands for. | ||
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Pursuit_
United States1330 Posts
On July 18 2014 20:11 KingofGods wrote: CCs and orbitals are considered different buildings in a way. If you have a CC and an orbital on the same hotkey, the orbital will be selected first and you will have to tab over to the CC to make it into an orbital using hotkeys. I'm not exactly sure what CG stands for. CG is control group, and yes it's by design. A barracks getting a tech lab or reactor is still a barracks, whereas a CC turning into an orbital becomes a different type of unit (edit- and orbital has priority over CC, likely because orbitals have spells). | ||
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kamimaiku
22 Posts
So, just to confirm - select CG with OC and CC, then one tab should select CC only? Or the first tab will select OC, and the second will select CC? | ||
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KonanTenshi
Sweden210 Posts
On July 18 2014 21:39 kamimaiku wrote: Thanks guys. I see the logic, ok, it seems to be reasonable at least. So, just to confirm - select CG with OC and CC, then one tab should select CC only? Or the first tab will select OC, and the second will select CC? Yeah that is correct. Just try it out in a AI game to get used to it as well and try it out before going laddering ^^ | ||
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Skynx
Turkey7150 Posts
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OneBaseKing
Afghanistan412 Posts
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Bulugulu
Israel250 Posts
On July 19 2014 22:25 OneBaseKing wrote: What are some build orders for T vs T nowadays? There are quite a few, and some build order wins among them: Reaper FE, proxy reaper, 2rax reaper expand, proxy marauder, gas first banshee, gas first hellion drop, gas first marine hellion, gas first widow mine drop (not so common now), gas first raven, 15 gas, gasless expand, 13 gas with variations. And the builds all have variations within them as well. My advice would be take one macro build and learn it thoroughly. | ||
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Jazzman88
Canada2228 Posts
On July 20 2014 00:01 Bulugulu wrote: There are quite a few, and some build order wins among them: Reaper FE, proxy reaper, 2rax reaper expand, proxy marauder, gas first banshee, gas first hellion drop, gas first marine hellion, gas first widow mine drop (not so common now), gas first raven, 15 gas, gasless expand, 13 gas with variations. And the builds all have variations within them as well. My advice would be take one macro build and learn it thoroughly. Additional advice for a macro build: if you are playing a 4-spawn map and get unlucky with the scout (i.e. scout them last), you MUST assume there are Reapers inbound until proven otherwise. If your Marines (assuming you aren't also building Reapers, in which case, ignore this) are derping on the natural ramp trying to catch a scouting SCV when the Reaper gets into your mineral line, you're going to have a bad day. | ||
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Mnijykmirl
United States299 Posts
On July 09 2014 12:49 TheGloob wrote: Are ghosts ESSENTIAL for a meching player in TvP? I really don't want to build them but I feel like I might need them? For example, archon tempest ht destroyed my mech army (viking raven thor hellbat) but I want to know if there's a way other than ghosts to beat something like that? I played many games with mech without ever using ghosts intentionally in TvP. I won sometimes. I play with ghosts and mech every game now and its better in all situations. In small attacks with a handful of Hellbat/Hellion and tanks and ghosts and mines and viking and SCVs and medivacs, EMP turns it crazy cost efficient. In huge max food fights I always want the mass majority of my units to be tanks and ghosts, its comparably unstoppable. imho always ghost | ||
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yido
United States350 Posts
On July 20 2014 06:36 Mnijykmirl wrote: I played many games with mech without ever using ghosts intentionally in TvP. I won sometimes. I play with ghosts and mech every game now and its better in all situations. In small attacks with a handful of Hellbat/Hellion and tanks and ghosts and mines and viking and SCVs and medivacs, EMP turns it crazy cost efficient. In huge max food fights I always want the mass majority of my units to be tanks and ghosts, its comparably unstoppable. imho always ghost Imo, I think mech TvP in general but especially ghostless is all about hitting a specific timing. (meaning if the opponent has 6+ tempests and you aren't 40+ supply ahead you will lose). Limit yourself to 2 medvacs for helbat drops and use the rest of the hellions to harass because if you don't do massive damage you are only slowing down you push. 2nd (even if you are using ghosts) fight into the toss in a concave (it is especially easy to do on maps like Merry Go Round). PS I found that using 2-4 medvacs with thors on them can almost chase down muta flocks. Instead of this mass thor and viking to deal with mutas as mech I think using medvacs with thors is a better option. (If the zerg goes for SH I can use helbat drops to take out SH like banshees) except they are faster so you actually have a good chance to save them with good enough reaction. (Warning: this is a timing attack dependent perspective meaning pulling decent number of scvs every time I try to hit a timing) Happy, SuNo, and avilo try for a full split map scenarios sometimes. Imho I think it is foolish to try to trade cost efficiently against Tier 3 Zerg or Protoss. Zerg with free units and Toss with Tempests with cannons. They can control ground/air areas for NO SUPPLY. We don't have Nydus or Recall either so why even try? | ||
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Andannius
United States7 Posts
Reaper-reactor expo (w/2nd reaper, can be cancelled if no 2rax reaper is confirmed) 19 CC 20 fact/20 ref @100% fact: sport + switch reactor to fact: constant hellions Tech lab on rax @100% sport: 2nd fact, viking @100% 2nd fact: switch to TL, begin BF @100% viking: medivac @100% medivac: load up hellions and commence drop @100% BF By the time the push comes I have 4 hellions to drop and 3-4 to run by in the natural. This normally works quite well: hellions at the natural can run by any bunkers, and the hellions in the main are generally a surprise. What I struggle with is telling the difference between the following openings from my opponent: banshee (w/ or w/o cloak), a marine/hellion push, or a marine/tank push, all off one base. Ideally the reapers get in and scout (by the time they're there, I can at least see 1-1-1 vs expo) but since Terrans at this level are usually pretty good about putting marines in the obvious jump locations, it's hard to actually get in and scout after the initial run. I keep dying to these pushes: what should I be looking for? | ||
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KingofGods
Canada1218 Posts
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KingofGods
Canada1218 Posts
Here is me attempting Innovation's 2-1 2 base all in vs. protoss that he just did 3 games in a row GSL Code A. My resources were a bit tight since my mechanics obviously aren't as good as Innovations and I had to build bunkers early because of fear of blink (I can never tell when the twlight is researching and when it is idle). I also kind of forgot +1 armor for a little bit so I had to wait a little longer for +2 attack. But all in all, it seemed rather easy. Of course I was so worried about executing the build that I didn't do any usual harassing or even scouting for that matter. Just kind of glad he went collosi instead of storm heh lol. And yes, my opponent wasn't the greatest but that's hardly the point. | ||
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neptunusfisk
2286 Posts
I watched Bogus today in Code A and he did this 2 base scv pull in all but one of the games vs P. Thought I should just share the rough build order somewhere and this might be an appropriate place. The build: + Show Spoiler + It's basically 12/12 reaper reactor expand, fast EB, second rax w TL for stim, kinda early factory for starport and in total 5 rax and 2/1 upgrades with scv pull ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/9TL3S8c.png) | ||
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yido
United States350 Posts
On July 23 2014 12:26 Andannius wrote: (Low) Diamond here. I've been opening in the following way in TvT, with the intent of getting a two-pronged BFH drop in my opponent's main ASAP: Reaper-reactor expo (w/2nd reaper, can be cancelled if no 2rax reaper is confirmed) 19 CC 20 fact/20 ref @100% fact: sport + switch reactor to fact: constant hellions Tech lab on rax @100% sport: 2nd fact, viking @100% 2nd fact: switch to TL, begin BF @100% viking: medivac @100% medivac: load up hellions and commence drop @100% BF By the time the push comes I have 4 hellions to drop and 3-4 to run by in the natural. This normally works quite well: hellions at the natural can run by any bunkers, and the hellions in the main are generally a surprise. What I struggle with is telling the difference between the following openings from my opponent: banshee (w/ or w/o cloak), a marine/hellion push, or a marine/tank push, all off one base. Ideally the reapers get in and scout (by the time they're there, I can at least see 1-1-1 vs expo) but since Terrans at this level are usually pretty good about putting marines in the obvious jump locations, it's hard to actually get in and scout after the initial run. I keep dying to these pushes: what should I be looking for? Honestly the build you are going for is much more of a TvP or TvZ build than a TvT build. If the opponent goes for a gas first build, he should have wayyy to many units to hold off 2 bases. I would switch to a more 1 base focused reaper build in TvT (like a WM drop). I've seen this build hold once in a blue moon with a tank, great scv pull/control and several mistakes by the opponent. Also if you are insistent on going BFH, you must scan around 6:00 to get if it is a banshee build or what. Get 2 vikings then hope to scan very well (bc u will only have 2 scans until you can get out a raven and 2 vikings can definitely kill with 2 scans but barely) If you insist on early expanding with reapers in TvT, go for an early ebay build. | ||
Noro
Canada991 Posts
Assuming I start on the bottom position, the third I usually end up taking is the bottom one (to the right of my natural). I can't commit too many defenses on my third because zerg will swing around and harass my natural/blow up my supply wall. If I survive all this, I usually take the base by the watch tower (north of starting position) but that base has so many avenues to be attacked, meanwhile the zerg can continue to swing around to my third. I've tried to leave tanks sitting around but tanks right now are about as useful as... something that isn't useful at all. And widow mines seem super easy to kill because they always have Overseers. Any pointers or should I just ban the map and live in blissful ignorance? | ||
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