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Calt
Finland1140 Posts
Replays: http://drop.sc/383321 http://drop.sc/383320 http://drop.sc/383322 I did eventually win one of the games but he just played pretty badly after I survived the proxy gate. I was a ton behind after the proxy and should have imo died had he played well. Any advice welcome, thank you in advance~ | ||
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rofllocktree
Netherlands45 Posts
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Calt
Finland1140 Posts
On June 26 2014 04:01 rofllocktree wrote: Think this might be something usefull for you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcSpstArhuk So its as simple as going 11 rax and pulling 6 SCVs to kill the gate. I'll be sure to try it out next time I face the build, thank you for the link! | ||
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iamcaustic
Canada1509 Posts
On June 26 2014 01:04 forsakeNXE wrote: I can't really imagine this working if the protoss gets you forcefielded at the ramp cause he can just do this infinitiflybut i will have a look at your replays to prove me wrong  Protoss forcefielding the ramp is ok because it means one of two things: 1. You already killed his natural and have a nat of your own (I've got this puppy mapped out with transitions and such) 2. They're doing a 1-base build that isn't ridiculously greedy and all you need to do is defend -- easy to do with 5 rax production. Also sorry guys I totally forgot to log into SC2 and get replays... I got distracted with Game of Thrones season 4.  | ||
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mau5mat
Northern Ireland461 Posts
On June 26 2014 07:13 iamcaustic wrote: Protoss forcefielding the ramp is ok because it means one of two things: 1. You already killed his natural and have a nat of your own (I've got this puppy mapped out with transitions and such) 2. They're doing a 1-base build that isn't ridiculously greedy and all you need to do is defend -- easy to do with 5 rax production. Also sorry guys I totally forgot to log into SC2 and get replays... I got distracted with Game of Thrones season 4. Would be interested in reps + your transition flow chart etc | ||
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iamcaustic
Canada1509 Posts
A couple are on Yeonsu because I've been doing this for quite a while.DISCLAIMER: Masters Terrans, I claim no responsibility for time wasted.  View at your own peril and/or if you think you could build something more practical out of it. Diamond and below, have at 'er.5rax vs. a DT expand 5rax vs. proxy gate into oracle cheese 5rax vs. oracle FE 5rax delayed production vs. phoenix Probably the best replay to study transitions and what to do when Protoss holds 5rax beats 4gate guys Additional notes: Basic Requirements: - Don't get supply blocked or you're probably done - Scout EVERYWHERE with your wall SCV and your first marine. If they're doing a proxy, you need to know about it and shut it down before it begins. Economic Details: - Constant SCV production. We do not cut corners on this, as we need to burst forward economically with a saturated natural if Protoss holds on 1 base. We've already put ourselves behind in a number of ways by cutting out gas. - Make a CC at your natural when you can support constant 5 marines + SCV production and still have 400 minerals to spare - Add 2 gas at your main right after CC and immediately start mining from them, as you'll need to play catch up tech-wise What to do against Photon Overcharge: Just wait and continue to produce marines. By the time PO runs out, your army will be even bigger while the Protoss cannot have scaled in the same manner (if they could, they wouldn't have needed PO to save them). FINAL NOTE: I do not really play efficiently in a single one of those replays, which leaves room for further improvement. On that note, you also don't need perfect execution to reap the benefits. | ||
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CycoManiac
8 Posts
If I could get some help with this game: http://www.twitch.tv/cycomaniac/c/4542554 This was the second time that day that I was DT rushed - the first game, I didn't have my turret up in time. This time, his DTs killed the turret before I could kill them. I was *attempting* to do a variation on Polt's TvP build (I have guys out of gas a little longer to get my bunker + raxes + ebay faster). Basically, I panicked and made about 6 turrets after losing 5 or so marines. Before you mention it, I made 2 turrets in the natural because I had been warp prism DT dropped on Sunday and didn't want that to also happen to me, and I wanted detection spread as far across my base as possible. Because he was going Templar-ish tech instead of Colossus tech first, I then tried to put on a sustained marauder + widow mine + medevac attack but failed to really do much damage. I'd appreciate any guidance I could get. I scout the DTs, I just noticed that he didn't have an expo and that he only had 3 gateways and no visible tech, so I made the turret in reaction to that. Is there any better way to handle a DT emergency if he gets in and I haven't gotten turrets yet? Should I just run everything around until I have scans? I can't even build turrets because DTs kill the scvs making turrets so fast. I'm considering trying this build: http://imbabuilds.com/hots-terran/hots-tvp/tvp-demuslims-reaper-fe/ because you get an engineering bay fast and can make turrets quickly, but I'm not sure how a 2-1-1 will fare. I feel like the 3-1-1 opening with an engineering bay gets tech out very slowly, and I never have medivacs ready by the time my stim finishes so I stay in my base until medivacs come out. Thanks in advance for any guidance. | ||
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Kvassten
Sweden159 Posts
On June 27 2014 04:45 CycoManiac wrote: I'm having a terrible time with DT openings, and have hit a rash of them in the past week. Even if I don't die to them outright, I take a fair amount of damage and I just don't know how to react properly. If I could get some help with this game: http://www.twitch.tv/cycomaniac/c/4542554 This was the second time that day that I was DT rushed - the first game, I didn't have my turret up in time. This time, his DTs killed the turret before I could kill them. I was *attempting* to do a variation on Polt's TvP build (I have guys out of gas a little longer to get my bunker + raxes + ebay faster). Basically, I panicked and made about 6 turrets after losing 5 or so marines. Before you mention it, I made 2 turrets in the natural because I had been warp prism DT dropped on Sunday and didn't want that to also happen to me, and I wanted detection spread as far across my base as possible. Because he was going Templar-ish tech instead of Colossus tech first, I then tried to put on a sustained marauder + widow mine + medevac attack but failed to really do much damage. I'd appreciate any guidance I could get. I scout the DTs, I just noticed that he didn't have an expo and that he only had 3 gateways and no visible tech, so I made the turret in reaction to that. Is there any better way to handle a DT emergency if he gets in and I haven't gotten turrets yet? Should I just run everything around until I have scans? I can't even build turrets because DTs kill the scvs making turrets so fast. I'm considering trying this build: http://imbabuilds.com/hots-terran/hots-tvp/tvp-demuslims-reaper-fe/ because you get an engineering bay fast and can make turrets quickly, but I'm not sure how a 2-1-1 will fare. I feel like the 3-1-1 opening with an engineering bay gets tech out very slowly, and I never have medivacs ready by the time my stim finishes so I stay in my base until medivacs come out. Thanks in advance for any guidance. When you scout his base with your reaper at 6:20 you see that he has almost max energy on his nexus and no expansion. You don't need to play "greedy" here. Save 2 scans or so. You are already so far ahead economy wise. Build 1 turret in each mineral line and 1 at your bunker just to be safe against any proxy stargate shit. When you killed his first 3 DTs you know you are really far ahead, scan to see if he expands or not. If he expands, rush out medivacs and drop his natural. If there is no expo, build additional bunkers and send an scv to scout for hidden bases (this never happens on alterzim though but do it anyway). Your rax 4, 5 and 6 placement is meh, why do you spread them like that?. That engagement you took in his main lost you the game, you saw he had templars and chargelots. Just don't engage, take a 3rd instead and load 2 medivacs with units and keep them close to his base. Leave 1 marine outside his ramp or around his 3rd. When he moves out with his army drop his natural and keep macroing home. When you lost your entire army for nothing the game was over but you tried anyways and thats ok I guess but whats upp with that SVC pull :O Im sorry but thats the most random pull I've ever seen and I stopped watching there. | ||
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CycoManiac
8 Posts
I placed them like that for no reason whatsoever. I don't have any guiding principles about building placement other than keep them away from where a blink rush might hit them. When I scanned his main, I didn't see the HT - I only saw the Zealots so I thought I could take him, If I had noticed the HT I wouldn't have attacked. I also felt like I couldn't win then but I figured throw the kitchen sink and see if I could do something (hence SCV pull). I really appreciate that information. Generally when I am DT rushed the game is over at 8 minutes and I spend time chasing them around trying to scan. If there are any other principles to apply I'd appreciate them. | ||
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KingofGods
Canada1218 Posts
If you know a twilight council is on the field because of blink or dts, you can almost always expect storm. | ||
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Kvassten
Sweden159 Posts
On June 27 2014 10:49 CycoManiac wrote: Thanks for the feedback. I will try to apply those principles in the future (no expo @ 6:00, I'm already ahead so no need to MULE), and seek to drop after a failed DT rush. Though I typically don't have medivacs before 9:30-10:00, and in that case I fell further behind so I didn't have medivacs for a while longer. One of the things I liked about the 2-1-1 build is that the medivacs were finished earlier. Do you have any views on that approach? I placed them like that for no reason whatsoever. I don't have any guiding principles about building placement other than keep them away from where a blink rush might hit them. When I scanned his main, I didn't see the HT - I only saw the Zealots so I thought I could take him, If I had noticed the HT I wouldn't have attacked. I also felt like I couldn't win then but I figured throw the kitchen sink and see if I could do something (hence SCV pull). I really appreciate that information. Generally when I am DT rushed the game is over at 8 minutes and I spend time chasing them around trying to scan. If there are any other principles to apply I'd appreciate them. I do the 2-1-1 build when I see that toss goes for early expand, otherwise I go 3 rax to be safe against all ins and stuff. On Alterzim I never do 2-1-1 because that map is so big that it's hard to do damage before the 3rd is up. I'm not sure of this but I feel like you are not sure whether aggression is coming or not in this matchup. When your reaper scouts his base at 4:30, you already know that something is going on. On a map like this where it's super easy to expand there "should" be an expansion building at 4:30 already. You don't need to kill probes with your reaper, scout his entire base and search the 3rd pylon. His build really looks like a proxy stargate because you see only 2 pylons with 2 gas and A LOT of chrono boost saved (he is either super bad or hides something). So you will have to defend your base from some shit the coming 4 minutes. | ||
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Kvassten
Sweden159 Posts
On June 27 2014 14:21 KingofGods wrote: Getting medivacs early doesn't quite matter as much if you don't have a big army off 3 raxes because of photon overcharge. Getting 3 raxes will also help you defend against the countless protoss all ins. If you know a twilight council is on the field because of blink or dts, you can almost always expect storm. The medivacs doesn't need to do direct damage, if you force a photon overcharge and stay around in the air space with your medivacs you are actually doing damage already because protoss can't leave his base for the next 3-4 minutes and you can take a 3rd kinda easy. | ||
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KingofGods
Canada1218 Posts
2 rax medivacs just does not line up properly with the protoss. | ||
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CycoManiac
8 Posts
When your reaper scouts his base at 4:30, you already know that something is going on. If he was opening MSC + Warp Gate + Stalker expand, it wouldn't have gone down that early would it? Even on Alterzim I rarely see an expo that early; maybe that's just due to being in Platinum league. Although I see what you mean about the saved chrono, from the replay, he isn't saving it for anything, he just rarely chronos anything. I do wish I hadn't shot any probes and instead just looked for 3 pylons; that would have given away the proxy. Something else I noticed is that I should place my turret behind instead of next to my bunker - he wouldn't have been able to target it down in that case. Thanks so much for your help guys. | ||
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PinheadXXXXXX
United States897 Posts
On June 27 2014 20:05 KingofGods wrote: If it's a gateway attack or a one base all in it will hit quicker than the ~9min medivac attack you can make. Anything else, be it a 2 base collosi / templar attack or a 3rd base, the protoss will be staying at home until about 12 mins anyway. All he needs to do is set off a photon overcharge and as you sit around his base waiting for it to run out, he will have his collosi out then your 8 or so marines with 2 medivacs can't do anything. 2 rax medivacs just does not line up properly with the protoss. I think you are underestimating the map presence you get with 2rax fast medivac builds. Because your medivacs are out so fast, if Protoss plays a macro style, he is forced to take a third significantly later than he would otherwise because at 10 minutes he can't defend a two-pronged attack over 3 bases. With 3rax medivacs he doesn't have to worry about this until effectively 11:30. And with 2rax medivacs it's a lot easier to take a third uncontested as opposed to 3rax medivacs, and you can start trading cost-efficiently vs protoss gateway units around 2 minutes earlier. Also, if you like to play a very technical TvP light on bio but heavy on ghosts/vikings (jjakji-style) 2rax medivacs is good because you get significantly more medivacs before you need to build vikings, or you can get a massive head start on vikings, or fast ghost academy without cutting medivacs at too low a number. All in all if you play more technical, surgical TvP then 2rax medivacs becomes superior. It has numerous intangible advantages depending on your style. | ||
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Deleted User 261926
960 Posts
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Bulugulu
Israel250 Posts
On June 28 2014 03:26 Karpfen wrote: Hello everyone. I don't post much here given that T is not my first race but I've been playing it a bit lately and I'd like to know how to hold 3 gate stargate vs P. He opens with a proxy oracle and follows up with 3 gates and 1-2 void rays. He has 2 sentries in order to prevent repairs and he can attack my rax with his voids to pull me out of position. How do I deal with this effectively assuming I take no big damage from the proxy oracle? After defending the oracle, send your reaper to see if he expands or scan if needed. Once you confirm it's an allin, you wanna have 3-5 bunkers at your front along with 1-2 missile turrets behind them or in the same line as them (the numbers depend on how confident you are). Then you should have 5+ scvs prepulled to repair. In your main you wanna have 2-3 turrets next to each other covering the path to your production/mineral line. Your goal at this point is to accumulate marines and get to stim. Once you get to stim without having lost many units it should be easy. Make sure you focus the expensive units when he attacks. Voids/oracles/sentries. | ||
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yido
United States350 Posts
On June 26 2014 11:50 iamcaustic wrote: Okay guys I got replays for you. A couple are on Yeonsu because I've been doing this for quite a while.FINAL NOTE: I do not really play efficiently in a single one of those replays, which leaves room for further improvement. On that note, you also don't need perfect execution to reap the benefits. did you ever check out any of Ruff (NA Terran) vods? The only one I've ever remembered that still does it is him and he does it pretty well imo. He cuts scvs just at the optimal time or pulls couple to try to make bunkers instead of throwing down another CC at the natural. Personally I stopped doing that build altogether after HotS. | ||
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iamcaustic
Canada1509 Posts
On June 28 2014 04:20 yido wrote: did you ever check out any of Ruff (NA Terran) vods? The only one I've ever remembered that still does it is him and he does it pretty well imo. He cuts scvs just at the optimal time or pulls couple to try to make bunkers instead of throwing down another CC at the natural. Personally I stopped doing that build altogether after HotS. Nope, never really looked to Ruff when it came to studying Terran. | ||
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mygodsnameiskyle
Canada33 Posts
I am gold league now, but I always wall off. The first pylon allows you to watch your ramp for probes coming in and denies early scouting from anyone. So, I know he is a different league, but is there a reason to NOT wall off? Also, totalbiscuit does a weird rax-supply-supply wall off rather than supply-rax-supply. Any thoughts on that? I like it personally because it ensures you don't get a thor trapped in your main. The downside is that I screw it up sometimes where there is a tiny hole. | ||
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