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On June 17 2014 01:57 GRiXiS wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2014 00:24 Andannius wrote:
Everything in this regard seems quite outdated on the Liquipedia, and I don't think there's a search function for this thread, so I'm just gonna ask: when should I drop my factories when playing mech vT? I've generally been opening 12/12 with a reaper into reactor +factory for hellions, but I don't know how I should time out my second and third factories or the fourth and fifth ones. Obviously this depends on the reaper scout (that is, whether banshees are likely or not) but in either case I'm unsure. Halp? If you're opening reaper, drop the factory as the first thing after your expansion. If you start the factory after the third supply depot it will finish too late, if you start if before your cc you will not have the economy to use it. The second factory should be the first 100 gas after starport, and I don't even drop my third factory until the ten minute mark (after my third cc and two gasses in natural). If you watched FlaSh vs. Bbyong and you're Terran, I recommend you do that ASAP. Study these games and you'll be a boss mechanical player. FlaSh vs Bbyong bo7 Sandisk InvitationalTl;dr FlaSh's mech expand goes like this (this is the 15 gas version, the 12/12 version is similar) 10 depot 1 12 rax 15 gas Orbital Command, 2 marines out of barracks Depot 2 Reactor after 2nd Marine Command Center on low-ground Factory @ 100 gas 2 marines when reactor finishes. After these two marines, lift off Barracks 2nd gas @ 50% factory Add Factory to reactor, start starport for a viking to defend banshees or drops @ 100% starport, start second factory (first 100 gas after starport starts) @~50% 2nd factory, start a tech-lab on the barracks, swap over. @ 100% 2nd factory, switch onto the tech lab and start blue flame The second thing out of your starport should be a medi-vac to drop the opponent's main base with 4 hellions. The drop should line up with blue-flame finishing. Also, the drop should aim for a blind spot in the opponent's base (you want the opponent to be blind-sided by four hellions sprinting behind the mineral line). Play Starcraft!
Thank you! The advice about the third factory timing is especially useful. I have seen Flash v Bbyong, but I'd never sat down and really paid attention to the BOs. The blue flame drop is a good idea too, my drop play is really subpar (I mained toss prior to a month or so ago, so I still don't have it in my head that drop are a consistently available tactical option. If I end up in a situation where it's hellions vs hellions, should I still go for the drop? Is that more important than winning map control early?
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You're asking about something that is highly situation-based. If your enemy is attacking your front that early, one of two things will happen. Either you'll have enough hellions and maybe a tank ready to meet the attack, or you won't.
The rule of Terran is typically as follows: Do you have enough units to defend the attack AND drop at the same time? If yes, drop drop drop drop drop. If no, defend defend defend defend until you have an opening to drop again.
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Is early reapers even worth it anymore TvZ with the current map pool? It feels like whenever I invest in reapers these days, I end up falling behind. With the hellion transformation buff, I've been having success going 1 rax CC into marine/hellbat/medivac timing against the Zerg's third. The faster economy seems to let me pump out more of those mineral units. 
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On June 19 2014 05:30 iamcaustic wrote:Is early reapers even worth it anymore TvZ with the current map pool? It feels like whenever I invest in reapers these days, I end up falling behind. With the hellion transformation buff, I've been having success going 1 rax CC into marine/hellbat/medivac timing against the Zerg's third. The faster economy seems to let me pump out more of those mineral units.
reapers add DPS and tanking ability to your hellion pokes as well as early scouting information. if zerg knows you're not making reapers then he can cut corners that allow him to match your greed with his own. hellions without reapers are a lot easier to shove away with queens, which means fewer lings and more drones long before the hellbat timing ever hits. a good zerg may also read the lack of reapers as a tell for the hellbat timing
1 rax expand is viable, but yes reapers are absolutely worth it if you use them well. if you're not going reaper then at bare minimum you need to scv scout and be active with your hellions to watch for aggression like 14/14, bane busts, roach/speedling allins, etc
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On June 19 2014 05:30 iamcaustic wrote:Is early reapers even worth it anymore TvZ with the current map pool? It feels like whenever I invest in reapers these days, I end up falling behind. With the hellion transformation buff, I've been having success going 1 rax CC into marine/hellbat/medivac timing against the Zerg's third. The faster economy seems to let me pump out more of those mineral units.
Absolutely.
Even at the highest level of play reapers often deal damage putting you in a great spot, and even if they don't they provide great scouting and map control. Sometimes you can snipe 1-2 creep tumors and delay the creep, put some damage on queens and later on their dps helps alot in combination with hellions.
Also regarding the map pool, a few maps have back entrances into the main that make reapers and proxy reapers particularly strong.
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On June 19 2014 05:51 Waise wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2014 05:30 iamcaustic wrote:Is early reapers even worth it anymore TvZ with the current map pool? It feels like whenever I invest in reapers these days, I end up falling behind. With the hellion transformation buff, I've been having success going 1 rax CC into marine/hellbat/medivac timing against the Zerg's third. The faster economy seems to let me pump out more of those mineral units. reapers add DPS and tanking ability to your hellion pokes as well as early scouting information. if zerg knows you're not making reapers then he can cut corners that allow him to match your greed with his own. hellions without reapers are a lot easier to shove away with queens, which means fewer lings and more drones long before the hellbat timing ever hits. a good zerg may also read the lack of reapers as a tell for the hellbat timing 1 rax expand is viable, but yes reapers are absolutely worth it if you use them well. if you're not going reaper then at bare minimum you need to scv scout and be active with your hellions to watch for aggression like 14/14, bane busts, roach/speedling allins, etc
Yeah, I've been doing SCV scout with general hellion map presence to scout for all those all-ins. I don't really do the aggressive hellion pokes against Queens anymore and focus mostly on building the marine/hellbat/medivac timing as crisply as possible. If I'm really in the dark and the Zerg doesn't have tech at their nat choke I'll drop a scan in the Zerg's main (same timing as scanning for banshees in TvT, so that's convenient). Saved me once or twice against roach/ling/bane all-in, and I'm not as concerned about losing a MULE because of my faster natural economy.
I've just been finding reapers to have lost much of their damage-dealing potential due to improved Zerg response, relegating them to scouting. If I can get that scouting without the early gas investment slowing down my economy build-up, I was wondering if there was still a payoff to getting them. Sounds to me like the recommendations don't provide any new information (just the standard scout, force mistakes, and add to hellions for damage boost vs. Queens) so seems like it's still just a matter of being Maru or Taeja to make it worthwhile*.
Just kind of demoralizing to be dropped out of Masters into Diamond, then watching Diamond TvZ also drop to sub-30%. Losing the reapers after the Hellion buff has flipped that around, to 70-80% win rate TvZ (though I'm sure some of that is thanks to finally winning against people I should have been beating in the first place).
* I exaggerate, of course.
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What is the correct number of production facilities if you play mech and are on 4+ bases? Typically I aim for the following, but not sure if that is correct or not:
TvZ: 7 Factories, 5 Starports
TvP: 7 Factories, 3 Starport, 2 Rax (for Ghosts)
TvT: 9 Factories, 3 Starports.
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On June 19 2014 07:27 iamcaustic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2014 05:51 Waise wrote:On June 19 2014 05:30 iamcaustic wrote:Is early reapers even worth it anymore TvZ with the current map pool? It feels like whenever I invest in reapers these days, I end up falling behind. With the hellion transformation buff, I've been having success going 1 rax CC into marine/hellbat/medivac timing against the Zerg's third. The faster economy seems to let me pump out more of those mineral units. reapers add DPS and tanking ability to your hellion pokes as well as early scouting information. if zerg knows you're not making reapers then he can cut corners that allow him to match your greed with his own. hellions without reapers are a lot easier to shove away with queens, which means fewer lings and more drones long before the hellbat timing ever hits. a good zerg may also read the lack of reapers as a tell for the hellbat timing 1 rax expand is viable, but yes reapers are absolutely worth it if you use them well. if you're not going reaper then at bare minimum you need to scv scout and be active with your hellions to watch for aggression like 14/14, bane busts, roach/speedling allins, etc Yeah, I've been doing SCV scout with general hellion map presence to scout for all those all-ins. I don't really do the aggressive hellion pokes against Queens anymore and focus mostly on building the marine/hellbat/medivac timing as crisply as possible. If I'm really in the dark and the Zerg doesn't have tech at their nat choke I'll drop a scan in the Zerg's main (same timing as scanning for banshees in TvT, so that's convenient). Saved me once or twice against roach/ling/bane all-in, and I'm not as concerned about losing a MULE because of my faster natural economy. I've just been finding reapers to have lost much of their damage-dealing potential due to improved Zerg response, relegating them to scouting. If I can get that scouting without the early gas investment slowing down my economy build-up, I was wondering if there was still a payoff to getting them. Sounds to me like the recommendations don't provide any new information (just the standard scout, force mistakes, and add to hellions for damage boost vs. Queens) so seems like it's still just a matter of being Maru or Taeja to make it worthwhile*. Just kind of demoralizing to be dropped out of Masters into Diamond, then watching Diamond TvZ also drop to sub-30%. Losing the reapers after the Hellion buff has flipped that around, to 70-80% win rate TvZ (though I'm sure some of that is thanks to finally winning against people I should have been beating in the first place). * I exaggerate, of course.
I use the reapers to force out 4-6 lings and speed, I find that it gives me control of the creep with hellion support until my medvacs come out. (not 0 creep, but barely to the 3rd if it isn't alterzerg stronghold)
4-6 roach expand to 3rd has been more common these days because of it and keeps the zerg from droning out of control.
You don't need to be excellent micro player like Taeja or Maru, slower APM players like Polt and other foreigners have been having success with reapers as well.
Control creep, prevent the 3rd from being droned like mad because the runby potential forces zergs to have a decent 12-20 lings with their queens.
If you don't lose them and the come with medvacs they usually pay for themselves. The main point of it isn't to push all the way into the mineral line, but keep pushing back creep until you get close enough to threaten the hatch. Even if they aren't the greatest units during the mid game phase, they offer good hit squad for clumps of blings off creep.
I'm not sure if anyone plays TvZ without reapers, but I'm sure Happy or ForGG is still sticking with their builds.
On June 20 2014 02:18 MockHamill wrote:
What is the correct number of production facilities if you play mech and are on 4+ bases? Typically I aim for the following, but not sure if that is correct or not:
TvZ: 7 Factories, 5 Starports
TvP: 7 Factories, 3 Starport, 2 Rax (for Ghosts)
TvT: 9 Factories, 3 Starports.
(Off 4 bases)
TvZ: 5 facts 3 ports. 2 reactor facts and rest tech labs.
TvP: None. Maybe 5 Facts, 1 port, 3 rax
TvT: 5 Facts, 3 ports. 2 reactor facts, rest tech lab facts. 2 reactor ports, 1 tech lab port.
5+ bases depend on stages of the game.
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On June 16 2014 22:25 Karpfen wrote:You don't have to cut anything and you can still hit earlier than 8:30.
Did you probe scout? Did you build observers? Did you build sentries? Do you have forges upgrading? Did you cut probe production at any point?
If you answered no to any of these questions, then you cut corners.
Here is the Tails build that was referred to earlier: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/406601-tails-722-dark-templar-drop-and-fe
+ Show Spoiler +As far as we can deduce, this is the exact build TAiLS used, give or take a few chronoboosts that appeared off screen. Constant probe production is assumed, except where specifically stated. There is no probe scouting with this build.
9/10 Pylon
Chronoboost Nexus x2
13/18 Gateway
15/18 Assimilator x2 (Cut probes briefly if necessary)
16/18 Pylon
Chronoboost Nexus (3)
Put 2 probes on each assimilators once they complete.
Chronoboost Nexus (4)
18/18 Cybernetics Core
20/26 Zealot*
22/26 Cancel Zealot right before completion.
21/26 Mothership Core and Warpgate research as soon as Cybernetics Core completes.
Chronoboost Nexus (5)
23/26 Nexus at natural.
Add 1 probe to each assimilator to bring them to full mining.
25/26 Robotics
Cut Probes
25/26 Twilight Council
25/26 Pylon
Resume Probes
26/34 Stalker
30/34 Warp Prism
Chronoboost Robotics Facility (6)
32/34 Dark Shrine
Start double probe production once second Nexus completes.
Chronoboost use seems to be flexible from this point/not enough information from VOD.
36/44 Gateway
36/44 Observer
38/44 Pylon
41/44 Stalker
45/52 Double gas at natural
47/52 Dark Templar x2 (7:22)
As you see fit from here on out, depending on what kind of damage you deal and what kind of scouting information you gain. TAiLS went up to 6 gateways while getting double forge, colossus tech and charge.
As we can see from this build, cutting probes, no probe scout, no sentries, late observers, no forges. And unless I am miscounting, I see a grand total of 2 gateways at the 7:22min mark.
Yeah, many corners were cut.
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The major vulnerability of the P is your possible stim timing. Even if you take dmg from the dts, i would suggest 2 turrets and maybe 3-4 units next to the turret while you hit a timing with your first medivacs. There can be no charge or aoe. Sentries are the only way to keep the nexus from dying as Overcharge alone does not do much to a stim timing. (talking when you are around 100-110 supply)
So if you see this: counterattack!
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On June 20 2014 14:25 KingofGods wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2014 22:25 Karpfen wrote:On June 16 2014 11:51 KingofGods wrote:
Depends how many corners you cut. You don't have to cut anything and you can still hit earlier than 8:30. Did you probe scout? Did you build observers? Did you build sentries? Do you have forges upgrading? Did you cut probe production at any point? If you answered no to any of these questions, then you cut corners. Here is the Tails build that was referred to earlier: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/406601-tails-722-dark-templar-drop-and-fe+ Show Spoiler +As far as we can deduce, this is the exact build TAiLS used, give or take a few chronoboosts that appeared off screen. Constant probe production is assumed, except where specifically stated. There is no probe scouting with this build.
9/10 Pylon
Chronoboost Nexus x2
13/18 Gateway
15/18 Assimilator x2 (Cut probes briefly if necessary)
16/18 Pylon
Chronoboost Nexus (3)
Put 2 probes on each assimilators once they complete.
Chronoboost Nexus (4)
18/18 Cybernetics Core
20/26 Zealot*
22/26 Cancel Zealot right before completion.
21/26 Mothership Core and Warpgate research as soon as Cybernetics Core completes.
Chronoboost Nexus (5)
23/26 Nexus at natural.
Add 1 probe to each assimilator to bring them to full mining.
25/26 Robotics
Cut Probes
25/26 Twilight Council
25/26 Pylon
Resume Probes
26/34 Stalker
30/34 Warp Prism
Chronoboost Robotics Facility (6)
32/34 Dark Shrine
Start double probe production once second Nexus completes.
Chronoboost use seems to be flexible from this point/not enough information from VOD.
36/44 Gateway
36/44 Observer
38/44 Pylon
41/44 Stalker
45/52 Double gas at natural
47/52 Dark Templar x2 (7:22)
As you see fit from here on out, depending on what kind of damage you deal and what kind of scouting information you gain. TAiLS went up to 6 gateways while getting double forge, colossus tech and charge.
As we can see from this build, cutting probes, no probe scout, no sentries, late observers, no forges. And unless I am miscounting, I see a grand total of 2 gateways at the 7:22min mark. Yeah, many corners were cut.
The probe cut in this build is a pretty standard probe cut used in a lot of Protoss FE builds in exchange for a faster Nexus + probe production, double forge at 7:30 or so isn't very late at all (it's actually still quite early), Observer timing isn't particularly late (basically delayed only by the build time of a Warp Prism since you get the robo before even the Twilight Council).
I mean, obviously if you're spending ~400 gas on a Dark Shrine + 2 DT's then some of your other tech is going to be delayed, but that isn't really 'cutting corners', the build still ends up with all of the standard Protoss Tech at the regular timings. You can even transition into High Templar or Collosi off of this build depending on your preference. It's really not much different than going for a Stargate + Oracle (300g), which is considered standard / not cutting corners.
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T v Z:
As a Terran player I am extremely used to being the aggressor in the early-mid game, as I get my bio infrastructure out.
However, of late, I have noticed some zergs are going on the aggression in the early to mid game.
Such as:
Producing a round or two of speedlings
Roach aggression
I find hellion openings weak to such forms of zerg aggression. I can no longer deny creep spread or keep zerg "contained" anymore.
Some problems I face in the following 2 games:
1) Inability to deal with the sudden aggression (ie killing a hatch and zerg suddenly rallies units)
2) Getting contained by the zerg, unable to float 3rd CC out and getting my economy going.
Game 1 - Sudden roach all in
http://drop.sc/383095
Game 2 - sudden round of mass lings into drones again, I cant keep zerg from getting a crazy economy
http://drop.sc/383096
tldr: How do I survive a sudden switch into aggression by zerg in the early-mid game?
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Canada8159 Posts
Getting a quick tank will help with that
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The "standard play" for protoss is to put up a robo and a forge at around the 6 min mark to defend widow mine drops. Cutting corners refers to a player doing something rather risky in hopes that the opponent won't be doing something that could punish. Not having observers and / or cannons at a normal widow mine drop time (if terran decides to go with that build) is being risky and hoping the terran doesn't go with that build. It makes it doubly risky as the protoss also doesn't even scout whether the terran is doing that build or not. So basically..................just hoping.
Similary, a terran would be cutting corners if he didn't build any turrets or bunkers. Having a stargate and oracle at least gives the protoss the option of spotting widow mines which is why the stargate opening is so popular along with the ability to keep the terran pinned back.
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On June 20 2014 22:13 ThaSlayer wrote:
Problems against Zerg
Gotta sim-city the natural to hold this crap. I know sim-cities aren't praised often so they get swept under the rug; a wall is your best defense against the swarm.
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It's not so much that sim cities aren't popular, it's more that they are difficult with the wide nats of these ladder maps.
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On June 21 2014 00:54 KingofGods wrote:
It's not so much that sim cities aren't popular, it's more that they are difficult with the wide nats of these ladder maps.
I said the natural, not necessarily the ramp. You can create a solid defense in a cost effective manner using engineering bays, supply depots and bunkers between the lip of the ramp to your main base and your natural CC. Granted you can't do this per say on Merry Go Round (I don't have access to a game client right now so I can't experiment), a wall created utilizing the guaranteed geometry of your CC and the map is a plausible defense.
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While I'm on this note I will go on to say that the utilization of engineering bays as artificial map geometry in the right places can create chokes and defensive zones that can and will make defending wide open bases so much easier to defend. The following example is in the case of a third base, however the concept still applies. Keep in mind when I create hypothetical situations, I'm implying that the player isn't getting supply blocked and macroing efficiently enough to eventually have an offensively capable army.
Sample situation:
You are Terran going bio. You do not have sufficient splash damage to defend the 2/2 swarm of muta-ling-bling getting ready to barrel across the map. You established your third base, however it is obvious that your small number of units in the open will get mauled. Losing your third base will mean you cannot compete with the production of zerg, spelling certain doom should you pre-emptively retreat into your natural. Unfortunately you're not pro at this game, so holding with insane micro is out of the picture.
How you can utilize Engineering Bays:
An engineering bay's numbers (mentioned at the bottom of this post) make it the most cost efficient building to use. The dimensions are 3x3 spaces. With only three engineering bays (a dump of 375 minerals) you can effectively space engineering bays in a line with two spaces in between each of them. 3+2+3+2+3 (in that order) can make a linear wall of 13 grid spaces (more than 2 command centers, unless I suck at math). 13 grid spaces with only two 2x2 chokes for lings and blings to funnel through can do wonders in turning a losing situation into a holdable defense. Use these 325 minerals to buy yourself time for a three base economy to churn out an army that can eventually march across the map.
Numbers:
-Engineering bays cost 125 minerals each. Bunkers and supply depots are 100 each, and the barracks is 150.
-Engineering bays take 35 seconds to complete, compared to the 40 and 65 seconds of the other 3x3 buildings that only cost minerals (bunker and barracks, respectively).
-Engineering bays have 850 health, with the armored structure bonus. Bunkers and supply depots both only have 400 health (with the structure armor bonus, of course). For 3x3 structures, 25 more minerals and less build time means you get 450 more hit points than the bunker alternative.
Conclusion: Use engineering bays as a mineral dump in key positions that your army needs to defend. I am positive a crafty individual can think of even better placements and set ups than I can. Good defending!
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On June 20 2014 22:13 ThaSlayer wrote:T v Z: As a Terran player I am extremely used to being the aggressor in the early-mid game, as I get my bio infrastructure out. However, of late, I have noticed some zergs are going on the aggression in the early to mid game. Such as: Producing a round or two of speedlings Roach aggression I find hellion openings weak to such forms of zerg aggression. I can no longer deny creep spread or keep zerg "contained" anymore. Some problems I face in the following 2 games: 1) Inability to deal with the sudden aggression (ie killing a hatch and zerg suddenly rallies units) 2) Getting contained by the zerg, unable to float 3rd CC out and getting my economy going. Game 1 - Sudden roach all in http://drop.sc/383095Game 2 - sudden round of mass lings into drones again, I cant keep zerg from getting a crazy economy http://drop.sc/383096tldr: How do I survive a sudden switch into aggression by zerg in the early-mid game?
Hi.
First of all, hellion openings aren't weak - reaper hellion is basically the only opening available to terran except from some cheese or cc first. If you scout and play it well it can defend everything.
On to the games:
Game 2:
First of all you don't need to scv scout when you open reaper. You failed to scout his main with your reapers. You should scout the gas and that lets you know that speed is on the way (and maybe something else if he keeps mining 100+gas).
Once you see that he has gas you know that you should leave around 5:30-6ish (better leave earlier until you're adept at seeing the timing).
At this point you lost alot to the early speedlings. When you see your opponent sending many speedlings, you want to send your scvs back to safety and put 4 hellions on your ramp. Then you use your ramp, or 1 open depot on your ramp to funnel the zerglings and kill them. 4 hellions should be enough. My advice would be practice your hellion micro on a micro map.
After you clear the lings and you have 6 hellions, go and take map control. You should have been able to easily clear the amount of lings he had with your hellions and then go scout his 3rd/limit his creep. If you're not confident of your hellion micro, or if you have reason to believe your opponent likes to make many early speedlings - get 8 hellions to guarantee success vs lings. Everything that went wrong in the game was the result of your failure to use your reapers and hellions to get map control. Work on your hellion control and this phase of the game.
Game 1:
Good job harassing a gasless opponent and killing his 3rd.
Two important things:
1. If a zerg lets you kill his 3rd without much resistance be wary of an allin. In sub-masters level I don't know how reliable this is but it's true in higher levels.
2. More importantly - after you killed his 3rd, continue poking at his natural/creep until you see what he's doing. Once you kill the zergs 3rd your thought process should be - I'm ahead, now I need to make sure I scout for aggression to maintain my lead. What you do is quickly run home with your units and miss your scout timing.
If you poked your hellions at his natural after killing his 3rd you would see the roaches -> make siege tank/marauders+bunkers -> gg.
Hope this helped.
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Anyone else feel like the roach 1-1 timing is similar to the protoss blink stalker timing? Even if you scout it coming, you have no idea how committed they will be to it and yet you have to all out defend it regardless.
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I just watched Polt get rolled in MLG by Trap. Can somebody talk me off this TvP ledge? I've personally been struggling tremendously vs oracles in my own ladder comeback tour (currently 90% tvt and tvz since I'm playing lower competition, but only 50% tvp). I watched Polt scout PERFECTLY with his SCV that it was proxy something, then scout PERFECTLY with his reaper and actually found the proxy stargate itself.
Then he got crushed anyway because this forced him to be defensive and he couldn't counter because of the MSC.
Can someone make some kind of sense out of this? That a solid TvP pro can perfectly scout a super cheese and get mashed by proxy oracle anyway? Is there anything you can do at all vs this strategy besides hope that he is terrible and runs single oracles into packs of marines without looking?
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EPT
