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On June 21 2014 08:58 GRiXiS wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2014 00:54 KingofGods wrote:
It's not so much that sim cities aren't popular, it's more that they are difficult with the wide nats of these ladder maps. I said the natural, not necessarily the ramp. You can create a solid defense in a cost effective manner using engineering bays, supply depots and bunkers between the lip of the ramp to your main base and your natural CC. Granted you can't do this per say on Merry Go Round (I don't have access to a game client right now so I can't experiment), a wall created utilizing the guaranteed geometry of your CC and the map is a plausible defense.
Nice idea, but most players will opt to dump 600 minerals for an Orbital than 500 for a big wall, especially since they can't lift like BW days.
I used to use 3 rax and a depot on my 3rd @ Antigua Shipyard back in the day and several seasons doing a ebay wall at naturals, but after I accepted that I have to get at least hellions to keep the creep back I stopped because I didn't need those types of walls to defend early aggression.
I love the idea, but walls an simcity isn't as effective for Terran as it was in BW (bc of pathfinding). Also Orbital commands with mules and scans are extremely valued compared to a slightly safer base.
I find that a single sensor tower allows me to lose the least amount of resources to a zerg poke or protoss counter than multiple walls.
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Can you help me pick a safe build to TvZ, i have a great macro but not so good micro, and tend to die in the early game and win in the mid late. which build should i use to survive roaches and early stuff? im better with bio than mech
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Canada8159 Posts
On June 24 2014 06:47 Requiem- wrote:
Can you help me pick a safe build to TvZ, i have a great macro but not so good micro, and tend to die in the early game and win in the mid late. which build should i use to survive roaches and early stuff? im better with bio than mech
This looks super solid
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On June 24 2014 07:05 Jer99 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2014 06:47 Requiem- wrote:
Can you help me pick a safe build to TvZ, i have a great macro but not so good micro, and tend to die in the early game and win in the mid late. which build should i use to survive roaches and early stuff? im better with bio than mech This looks super solid
is it me or mech looks way stronger in lower levers vs zerg? im silver (with a strong macro, really stong even a gm friend said) and defeated 1 plat z and 1 diamd z with mech. Should i switch to mech?
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On June 24 2014 08:01 Requiem- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2014 07:05 Jer99 wrote:On June 24 2014 06:47 Requiem- wrote:
Can you help me pick a safe build to TvZ, i have a great macro but not so good micro, and tend to die in the early game and win in the mid late. which build should i use to survive roaches and early stuff? im better with bio than mech This looks super solid is it me or mech looks way stronger in lower levers vs zerg? im silver (with a strong macro, really stong even a gm friend said) and defeated 1 plat z and 1 diamd z with mech. Should i switch to mech?
it probably works cuz mech is splash damaged based. If the style fits u then stick with it. the bio style needs a lot more multitasking and splitting which can be challenging for some
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Hey,
Masters Terran here.
What do I do if i play Merry Go Around and go Reaper Expand into Ebay off of 1 Rax and scout the wrong position with my SCV and then get a 10 Gate Zaelot in my Base? Even if I Scout it they just right click my 2 Marines every time and i take too much dmg and die. They just run past my Bunker and don't care. Most of the time though i don't scout it cause my SCV checked the wrong side first. Is this just a default loss? Sounds stupid... Might have to veto the map just because of this but dunno, maybe i am missing something. Lost 4 Times against this yesterday.....
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On June 24 2014 18:46 forsakeNXE wrote:
Hey,
Masters Terran here.
What do I do if i play Merry Go Around and go Reaper Expand into Ebay off of 1 Rax and scout the wrong position with my SCV and then get a 10 Gate Zaelot in my Base? Even if I Scout it they just right click my 2 Marines every time and i take too much dmg and die. They just run past my Bunker and don't care. Most of the time though i don't scout it cause my SCV checked the wrong side first. Is this just a default loss? Sounds stupid... Might have to veto the map just because of this but dunno, maybe i am missing something. Lost 4 Times against this yesterday.....
Can you link a replay please? I haven't encountered this build on that map myself so I'd like to see the timings first.
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Was on tilt and that point so excuse my BM^^ was the 4th time...
http://drop.sc/383271
I tried not attacking till i have 4 Marines but by that time way to many scvs die... i have no idea. Only thing i can think about is walling off at the front with 2 supply depots and then building a bunker once i see it coming but it still a) does not fix the issue if i scout the wrong spawn first and it exposes the depos to go down very, very likely as i have no widow mine to zone them out and cant go down cause he can timewarp the ramp etc. dunno man. This map sucks for tvp :/
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On June 24 2014 19:05 forsakeNXE wrote:Was on tilt and that point so excuse my BM^^ was the 4th time... http://drop.sc/383271I tried not attacking till i have 4 Marines but by that time way to many scvs die... i have no idea. Only thing i can think about is walling off at the front with 2 supply depots and then building a bunker once i see it coming but it still a) does not fix the issue if i scout the wrong spawn first and it exposes the depos to go down very, very likely as i have no widow mine to zone them out and cant go down cause he can timewarp the ramp etc. dunno man. This map sucks for tvp :/
Okay, so first of all - I personally like to make my first depot at the ramp just for this reason. If I scout the early zealot, or proxy gate I can wall with bunker+depot before dropping CC. The walloff won't necessarily stop them, but it will buy you precious time to get out some marines and it allows you to try and catch him with scvs after he kills the depot.
Regarding the actual micro - you wanna kill the zealot asap with reaper/marines, then target the MSC with marines while pulling scvs and try and surround the stalkers.
Then you can usually end up even if you micro well.
Second - you were actually fine/ahead after the attack because he didn't expand.
What puts you behind is the oracle, so after defending the initial attack play safer (marines in main mineral line) until your reaper scouts him.
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Alright i didn't know about killing the zaelot first but actually it makes sense as it does the most dmg vs the scvs.
Don't take it the wrong way but i think that there has to be a better variant with no walloff as good to none pros actually wall in tvp and always go even blind cc on the low ground. So i dunno but i think there has to be a way to defend this without having a walloff. I have seen innovation do it once but i cant recall the map nor match at all, was like 1-2 months ago. I am looking for that exact response to copy.
Walloff and stuff is really annoying and leads to your scvs being sniped by stalkers etc.
Also again:
In this one replay i scouted it but normally i don't. It's just a coin flip if isee it and once the zaelot hits my base it's too late to start this stuff anyways. So there has to be sth we are missing.
I lost like 10+ scvs to that and if he would have went for a nexus (which all other opponents did hence is why i pushed and didn't play defensive) i would have been very war behind.
So please don't take it the wrong way but i think a walloff can help but is suboptimal and again if i scout the wrong position first i am just screwed.
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Northern Ireland461 Posts
On June 24 2014 20:08 forsakeNXE wrote:
Alright i didn't know about killing the zaelot first but actually it makes sense as it does the most dmg vs the scvs.
Don't take it the wrong way but i think that there has to be a better variant with no walloff as good to none pros actually wall in tvp and always go even blind cc on the low ground. So i dunno but i think there has to be a way to defend this without having a walloff. I have seen innovation do it once but i cant recall the map nor match at all, was like 1-2 months ago. I am looking for that exact response to copy.
Walloff and stuff is really annoying and leads to your scvs being sniped by stalkers etc.
Also again:
In this one replay i scouted it but normally i don't. It's just a coin flip if isee it and once the zaelot hits my base it's too late to start this stuff anyways. So there has to be sth we are missing.
I lost like 10+ scvs to that and if he would have went for a nexus (which all other opponents did hence is why i pushed and didn't play defensive) i would have been very war behind.
So please don't take it the wrong way but i think a walloff can help but is suboptimal and again if i scout the wrong position first i am just screwed.
I guess the only way would be to adjust your first SCV scout timing on that map particularly if you are having trouble with 10 gate pressure.
So instead of scouting at 14 supply, maybe try 13 or after depot even?
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On June 24 2014 20:08 forsakeNXE wrote:
Alright i didn't know about killing the zaelot first but actually it makes sense as it does the most dmg vs the scvs.
Don't take it the wrong way but i think that there has to be a better variant with no walloff as good to none pros actually wall in tvp and always go even blind cc on the low ground. So i dunno but i think there has to be a way to defend this without having a walloff. I have seen innovation do it once but i cant recall the map nor match at all, was like 1-2 months ago. I am looking for that exact response to copy.
Walloff and stuff is really annoying and leads to your scvs being sniped by stalkers etc.
Also again:
In this one replay i scouted it but normally i don't. It's just a coin flip if isee it and once the zaelot hits my base it's too late to start this stuff anyways. So there has to be sth we are missing.
I lost like 10+ scvs to that and if he would have went for a nexus (which all other opponents did hence is why i pushed and didn't play defensive) i would have been very war behind.
So please don't take it the wrong way but i think a walloff can help but is suboptimal and again if i scout the wrong position first i am just screwed.
Actually Innovation often also gets his first depot at the ramp, in my opinion for these reasons as well. If you make just one depot at the ramp it's a small commitment and allows you to wall off only in the case that you scout the fast zealot.
The only other "response" is to micro really well.
In my opinion if you walled off you would have lost less scvs and you would have ended up even, but if you find a better response I would be happy to find out.
Another thing that I forgot to mention - personally I like to 14 scout on 3/4 player maps vs toss so that I can send my reaper straight to their base in case they're playing greedily and to get an early scout for proxy cheeses. I don't think any pros do this but it may be worth a try if you want to play extra safe.
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Also, in my humble opinion, walling off not only helps you lose less SCVs, you also get to keep your marines and the reaper in the bunker - hence alive - without having to micro your butt off. Saving the reaper is essential for scouting and having 2 or 3 marines more helps against oracles ... or whatever a cheesy toss might throw at ya ...
So, as you said, in this case, I also see walling off as the best available option ^^
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On June 24 2014 20:08 forsakeNXE wrote:
Alright i didn't know about killing the zaelot first but actually it makes sense as it does the most dmg vs the scvs.
Don't take it the wrong way but i think that there has to be a better variant with no walloff as good to none pros actually wall in tvp and always go even blind cc on the low ground. So i dunno but i think there has to be a way to defend this without having a walloff. I have seen innovation do it once but i cant recall the map nor match at all, was like 1-2 months ago. I am looking for that exact response to copy.
Walloff and stuff is really annoying and leads to your scvs being sniped by stalkers etc.
Also again:
In this one replay i scouted it but normally i don't. It's just a coin flip if isee it and once the zaelot hits my base it's too late to start this stuff anyways. So there has to be sth we are missing.
I lost like 10+ scvs to that and if he would have went for a nexus (which all other opponents did hence is why i pushed and didn't play defensive) i would have been very war behind.
So please don't take it the wrong way but i think a walloff can help but is suboptimal and again if i scout the wrong position first i am just screwed.
Stuff like this is why I just 5 rax marine all-in every TvP and enjoy a 90%+ win rate in the match up vs. Diamond and Master P. Not a single Protoss plays legit; every single one will pull some sort of extreme shenanigan because they can get away with it, regardless whether it's aggressive or economic shenanigan. This is the source of all Terran frustration in the match up.
For me though, it's like hitting a magical free-win button and just pretending the match up doesn't exist until either Blizzard does something, or some brilliant individual finds a golden BO that can punish what Protoss can currently do in the early game. That said, if anybody has good ideas for a BO, I'd be more than happy to help try them out. Massing marines is less frustrating to play, but also much less interesting.
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iamcaustic, can you send a replay, please?
like a legit onebase 5rax marine allin?
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So i discussed this with a clanmate who said i should hast go cc on the highground anyways (all of this is if i scout the wrong spawn first) and just attack with 6-7 scvs once the zaelot arrives, micro the hurt one back and build a bunker in the meantime. I guess this should work out. I will see if i will go with the depot or not though 
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On June 25 2014 02:51 iamcaustic wrote:
Stuff like this is why I just 5 rax marine all-in every TvP and enjoy a 90%+ win rate in the match up vs. Diamond and Master P. Not a single Protoss plays legit; every single one will pull some sort of extreme shenanigan because they can get away with it, regardless whether it's aggressive or economic shenanigan. This is the source of all Terran frustration in the match up.
For me though, it's like hitting a magical free-win button and just pretending the match up doesn't exist until either Blizzard does something, or some brilliant individual finds a golden BO that can punish what Protoss can currently do in the early game. That said, if anybody has good ideas for a BO, I'd be more than happy to help try them out. Massing marines is less frustrating to play, but also much less interesting.
+1 as platinium player.
On June 25 2014 03:06 pali_ wrote:
iamcaustic, can you send a replay, please?
like a legit onebase 5rax marine allin?
yes a replay please.
how do you deny scouting ?
how do you avoid stalker kiting ?
how many scv do you produce ? how many do you left mining ?
do you focus MSC, what if nexus overcharge is launched ? forcefields ramp ?
THX in advance
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I'm at work right now, but I'll grab a collection of 5 rax replays for you guys when I get home. Didn't expect such interest in what's basically a meta-game gimmick, but I'll indulge you guys. 
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I can't really imagine this working if the protoss gets you forcefielded at the ramp cause he can just do this infinitiflybut i will have a look at your replays to prove me wrong
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iamcaustic, quit working and get to uploading these replays!
, just kidding, but seriously I'm curious too. TvP is just awful and if I could just kind of "skip" that matchup and enjoy tvt and tvz, I would have a lot more fun playing.
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EPT
