firing flares? that don't burn but explode? for real? those explosions and the resulting damage and carnage is not from an rpg or a manpad hitting a god damned airconditioner.
a separatist drone, more comical ali level shit -
Acting chief of the Main Department for Personnel Policy of the Armed Forces of Ukraine Oleksandr Rozmaznin said that explosion at the building of Luhansk Regional State Administration on Monday was caused by the bombarding by the unmanned aerial vehicle from the building of the regional office of Security Service of Ukraine (SBU), which is used by the militants.
next up: planted explosives on the ground - falseflag separatist operation orchestrated and detonated by putin himself. this is a great opportunity to see who is spreading disinfo about ukraine, me thinks.
On June 03 2014 06:47 nunez wrote: next up: planted explosives on the ground - falseflag separatist operation orchestrated and detonated by putin himself. this is a great opportunity to see who is spreading disinfo about ukraine, me thinks.
Interpretermag wrote a proper article on the Lugansk bombing. They conclude it was an airstrike for the following reasons:
First, the damage is very widespread. No RPG or similar weapon could cause this level of damage.
Second, the epicenter of the damage in the video is the 4th floor window of the state administrative building. In the video, a firetruck is putting out the fire through one of the windows. The damage in the window is consistent with an explosion that started on the outside of the building.
Also important, however, is the point that the significant damage down below could not have all come from the explosion on the fourth floor of the building. In one video we've posted below, however, we see one of the cars explode, a car which is parked across the street from the admin building. The building could not have suffered the kind of damage, on the fourth floor, as a result of the explosion on the street. Again, this supports the hypothesis that there were multiple explosions, perhaps a combination of a rocket/missile and autocannon attack from a low-flying Ukrainian aircraft.
Read the rest here. There are a large number of expert opinions, videos and further context in their article.
lets break down the large number of experts in the article ghan linked: Thomas C. Theiner - a writer/productionmanager who has written an oped for kyivpost and retweets and has written for for propaganda outlet euromaidanpr Danilo Elia - an italian journo /r/UkrainianConflict - the subreddit twitter The Interpreter - the mag itself
lets break down the large number of videos they posted: 4 videos - 3 of them already posted on last page by yours truly, the last one does not bring anything to the table.
lets break down the large number of expert opinions: it was an airstrike, look at the damage and the plane shooting in the videos - you can find this expert opinion on the last page posted by yours truly
and in closing lets sum up all the ridiculous disinfo ghan posted on the last page and acknowledge that ITAR-TASS, random 'russian and thus fake' youtube vids and 'russian expat troll' nunez was a more 'reliable source' than him:
Nunez, as you well know, the jury is still out on what actually happened in Luhansk. There are several reports (such as this one saying that it was an RPG fired from a rooftop:
Today terrorists attacked the regional State Administration in the city of Luhanks with either RPG or antitank missile. The purposes of this attack were to confront Ukrainian soldiers and create another fake reason to make the Ukrainian and pro-government forces look bad.
There are also other reports such as this one stating that it was an accident from mishandling a MANPAD. Here's a more detailed report in Ukrainian saying that Luhansk police reports witnesses seeing rebels misfiring a MANPAD and hitting the builidng.
And so far the Ukrainian govt. has denied striking the HQ. Read it here.
This shows once again that ITAR-TASS and random youtube videos are not a reliable source of information and that we should wait until the dust settles to figure out what actually happened.
Had you read what I actually wrote you'd see that I posted that slowdown video in one of my links with detailed analysis talking about its trajectory being that of a MANPAD.
Considering those random youtube videos come from Russian sources and we've seen video manipulation by Russian sources a thousand times, not to mention that I cannot differentiate between firing missiles and firing flares in such a video (neither can you), I repeat that we need to wait for actual reporting on the issue. Too much smoke and mirrors.
all that is missing is ghan reposting a carlbildt tweet blaming the civilian casualties on putin.
Nunez, I can only conclude that you've lost your mind.
***
Back to what's happening:
Russia on Monday circulated a draft U.N. Security Council resolution calling for humanitarian corridors in eastern Ukraine but said that Western council members raised so many questions about the text that Moscow would now contemplate what its next move would be.
The 15-member council met briefly behind closed doors to discuss the one-and-a-half page draft resolution, which calls for an end to the worsening violence in southeastern Ukraine and for safe and unhindered humanitarian aid.
"There was some positive reactions from some members of the council. However, others were asking so many questions that if we were to try to answer them then we would be talking about things for weeks," Russian U.N. Ambassador Vitaly Churkin, president of the Security Council for June, told reporters after the meeting.
"We have not yet decided what out next move is going to be in terms of working on this resolution," he said.
Ukraine and its Western allies accuse Moscow of fueling a pro-Russian uprising that threatens to break up the former Soviet republic of 46 million people. Russia denies orchestrating the unrest and says Ukraine's attempts to end it by military force are making the situation worse.
"We must be clear that the crisis in Ukraine is a political security crisis. It's not a humanitarian crisis," British U.N. Ambassador Mark Lyall Grant told reporters.
Lyall Grant and his French counterpart, Gerard Araud, said there were key elements missing from the Russian draft.
"There were things missing like the reference to the territorial integrity and sovereignty of Ukraine for instance, the right of Ukraine to defend its territorial integrity," said Araud, adding that a U.N. report on the humanitarian situation was needed as he was unaware "there was a major crisis."
The United States called the Russian proposal hypocritical because at the same time armed fighters and weapons were entering Ukraine from Russia and Russian-backed separatists were attacking new targets and holding hostage monitors from the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE).
"So if they are going to call for or would support a reduction in tensions and a de-escalation, it would be more effective for them to end those activities," U.S. State Department spokeswoman Jen Psaki said in Washington.
Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said earlier on Monday that Western nations had assured Russia the situation in Ukraine would improve after its May 25 presidential election but that "everything is happening in exactly the opposite way."
"People are dying every day. Peaceful civilians are suffering more and more - the army, military aviation and heavy weapons continue to be used against them," Lavrov said.
U.N. Secretary General Ban Ki-moon spoke to newly elected Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko over the weekend and urged him to initiate a dialogue with Russian President Vladimir Putin, Ban's spokesman Stephane Dujarric said on Monday. Source.
Syria's bloody civil war has killed more than 160,000 civilians and left millions more in desperate need of food and other supplies. The current unrest in eastern Ukraine has killed a few dozen people, mostly Ukrainian soldiers, and caused no shortages of any vital goods. Russia has vehemently opposed efforts to make it easier to bring humanitarian goods into one country while enthusiastically promoting the idea in the other. Care to guess which country is which?
Moscow on Monday launched a quixotic effort at the U.N. Security Council to create humanitarian corridors that would allow relief aid into conflict zones in eastern Ukraine -- where low-level clashes between Ukraine's army and pro-Russian separatists have escalated in the days following Kiev's presidential elections -- and make it easier for civilians to flee the fighting. Those are exactly the type of measures that Moscow has bottled up when it comes to Syria, despite the exponentially higher civilian death toll there.
The Russian draft resolution, a copy of which was obtained by Foreign Policy, "demands the immediate cessation of hostilities" in southern and eastern Ukraine and demands that "the parties establish humanitarian corridors in order to allow the civilian population who wish to do so to leave safely the areas of hostility and ensure the unhindered delivery of humanitarian assistance to the civilian population" in the regions.
Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said action by the 15-member council was necessary to avert further bloodshed in Ukraine's predominantly Russian-speaking eastern territory. "Our Western colleagues convinced us for a long time that the situation in Ukraine would calm down immediately after the presidential elections in Ukraine. Everything is the other way round," he told reporters in Moscow. "We want the [U.N.] Security Council to require that civilians be allowed to leave and humanitarian aid [be] delivered to the hostility zones."
Western diplomats and human rights activists immediately dismissed Moscow's gambit as a PR ploy aimed at distracting attention from its own efforts to water down a U.S.-backed draft resolution, currently under consideration at the United Nations, pressing the government of Syrian strongman Bashar al-Assad and Syria's rebels to give U.N. aid workers unfettered access to the country. They noted that the initiative comes on a day when hundreds of separatists stormed a Ukrainian border guard outpost near the eastern city of Lugansk, sparking a fierce gunbattle that left at least five rebels dead.
"It is hypocritical of the Russian leadership to call for an end to violence and the creation of humanitarian corridors when at the same time armed irregular forces are entering Ukraine from Russia, weapons are being brought illegally from Russia into Ukraine, Russian-backed separatists are attacking new targets and holding [Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe] teams hostage, and Russia is doing nothing to stop these activities," State Department spokeswoman Jen Psaki told reporters. "It would be more effective for them to end those activities."
Philippe Bolopion, Human Rights Watch's U.N. representative, said Russia's case would be more convincing if it exhibited the same degree of concern for Syria's civilians, many of whom have been cut off from aid for more than a year. "Russia's stated concern for local residents allegedly trapped in the fighting in South-Eastern Ukraine would ring less hollow if Moscow was not opposing meaningful measures to improve access for urgent aid to 3.5 million Syrians, some of whom are being starved to death," he said. Source: FP
President Obama announced more steps on Tuesday to bolster security in central and eastern Europe with additional deployments and training as he arrived in Poland for the start of a four-day European trip aimed at locking arms with allies following Russia’s intervention in Ukraine.
Mr. Obama tried to make a point of demonstrating solidarity with leaders from Poland and the rest of the region immediately upon landing. Striding across the tarmac from Air Force One, he visited a hangar with four American F-16 fighter jets and addressed about 50 American and Polish airmen and soldiers with a message of resolve.
“I’m starting the visit here because our commitment to Poland’s security as well as the security of our allies in central and eastern Europe is a cornerstone of our own security and is sacrosanct,” Mr. Obama told the troops with President Bronislaw Komorowski of Poland at his side. “As friends and allies, we stand united together and forever.”
He later announced that he would ask Congress for $1 billion for a “European reassurance initiative” that would increase exercises, training and troop presence in Eastern Europe and send American navy ships more often to the Baltic and Black seas. The plan would deploy American experts to bolster capabilities and would help pre-position equipment among European allies for quicker military responses. It would also provide aid to Ukraine and two other former Soviet republics, Georgia and Moldova.
But it was unclear whether Mr. Obama’s new announcement would satisfy regional leaders previously unimpressed by the relatively token forces sent in recent months. Mr. Obama dispatched additional rotations of aircraft and support personnel as well as about 600 paratroopers to Poland and other allies in the region after Russia seized Crimea from neighboring Ukraine in the spring.
Anxious about the threat from Moscow, Polish leaders have been pressing for a more robust deployment and even a permanent base despite a NATO-Russia agreement following the end of the Cold War in which the western alliance said it would refrain from deploying substantial forces in eastern territory. Polish officials have argued that Russia had effectively abrogated that agreement by annexing Crimea.
“For the first time since the Second World War, one European country has taken a province by force from another European country,” Radoslaw Sikorski, the Polish foreign minister, said in a telephone interview before Mr. Obama’s arrival. “America, we hope, has ways of reassuring us that we haven’t even thought about. There are major bases in Britain, in Spain, in Portugal, in Greece, in Italy. Why not here?”
Joined by Secretary of State John Kerry, Mr. Obama had a day of meetings scheduled with Mr. Komorowski and Prime Minister Donald Tusk. He was to meet with the leaders of Bulgaria, Croatia, the Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania and Slovakia, all of whom are traveling here to see the American president.
On Wednesday, Mr. Obama is scheduled to meet here for the first time with Petro O. Poroshenko, the newly elected president of Ukraine, days before his inauguration on Saturday. Mr. Obama hopes to reinforce American support for the new government in Kiev as it tries to stabilize a rocky economy and quell a violent, pro-Russian insurgency in its eastern regions.
He is also scheduled to address a public rally later Wednesday marking the 25th anniversary of the first partially free elections in Poland that led to the end of Communist rule. The fresh crisis with Russia, coming at a time when this part of Europe is commemorating the end of the Cold War and Soviet domination, lent symbolic potency to the event.
Mr. Obama plans to fly later Wednesday to Brussels to meet with leaders of Britain, France, Germany, Italy, Canada and Japan in a Group of 7 format that was originally supposed to be a Group of 8 summit meeting hosted by President Vladimir V. Putin in Sochi, Russia, until the country was suspended from the group. Mr. Obama will then head to France for meetings in Paris and a ceremony in Normandy marking the 70th anniversary of the D-Day landings. Mr. Putin has been invited to the Normandy ceremony, marking the first time he and Mr. Obama will meet since the Ukraine crisis erupted.
The nervousness here was palpable even though American and Western European officials doubt Mr. Putin would dare to use force against a NATO ally such as Poland. Under Article 5 of the NATO charter, the United States and others in the alliance are obligated to come to the defense of any member. Ukraine, by contrast, is not a NATO member, much like Georgia, which was invaded by Russian forces in 2008 after a skirmish in a breakaway republic.
But Mr. Sikorski said many in Poland were not so sure. “Russia is testing the strength of the international system set up by the United States after World War II,” he said. “She tested it in Georgia, which was an implied ally of the United States. She has now tested it in Ukraine. And I don’t think we can discount the possibility that she will test it again. And therefore our security guarantees have be credible, which is to say physically enforceable.”
Russia has long resisted NATO forces in central and Eastern European countries. In 1997, NATO and Russia signed an agreement in which NATO said it did not intend “additional permanent stationing of substantial combat forces” in Eastern Europe. But under the agreement, Russia agreed to refrain “from the threat or use of force” that would violate the “sovereignty, territorial integrity or political independence” of its neighbors. Source.
On June 03 2014 07:30 Cheerio wrote: A journalist report on a truck from Donetsk taking 31 bodies to Russia. During the events when the local airport was being fought for.
From the first article, according to the journalist. One of the Russians killed in Donetsk had a post in his social media network page shortly before he left. The page got deleted afterwards, so there is no telling how authentic it is. From the words of the journalist the letter included this: "We were about to leave for Slavyansk. Me and two of my friends. I told my mother, wife, wrote a will, but didn't repay all my debts... Was preparing my family for a month for this. During this time we found some "ways" through the border, and a few concerned people willing to help. After crossing the border we were going to get rifles, and I, because of my size, also a machine-gun and some other equipment. ... The way through Rostov was closed, some local MP was helping, but something changed, the other got closed by SBU. ... [about the decision to go to Donetsk: ] Odessa broken something inside of me, and all of this mess... I'm a big strong man and can't hide behind the woman's back, and behind my work, children."
But Major Gen. Oleksandr Rozmaznin denied that Ukraine had bombed the building and told Hromadske TV that separatists had aimed a shoulder-fired, heat-seeking, surface-to-air missile at a passing Ukrainian jet. The missile apparently zeroed in on an air-conditioning unit at the government building instead, causing the blast, he said.
if you actually look at that gif you can see a flame (which looks an awfully lot like two muzzle flashes) in the trees on the right side of the gif immediately followed by explosions.
sure looks like two misfires from two separate weapons of some kind on the ground in the trees that traveled ~100 feet to the street and exploded.
I at first bought into that argument, but it's really hard for me to believe if I analyze the photo farther. It *clearly* looks like at least 4 parallel explosions moving from right to left (that is supported by the video of 5 or so missiles being fired by the jet). The flame seen before the explosions on the left is most probably the first missile hitting the ground. It doesn't produce visible smoke at first because the view is obscured by the trees (and trapping the smoke).
Also, if you watch the video frame by frame you can actually see the impact of the missile coming through the trees.
I don't know who in the Ukrainian army approved this attack, but he should be immediately removed and the Ukrainian government should own up to the attack.
The notion of RT.com `confirming' something is ridiculous. But it's pretty clear that it was an airstrike. It's weird that the Ukrainian government is not owning up to it. It looks like they've decided to up the ante on the propaganda war.
***
There are reports from the Luhansk border that 20 trucks filled with fighters from Chechnya and elsewhere in Russia, together with 5 APCs have entered Eastern Ukraine. Looks like Russia is determined not to lose the non-war, which suggests it will be a protracted conflict.
*** Breaking down Obama's message.
President Barack Obama’s speech Wednesday in Warsaw will have three distinct audiences: the people of Poland and other countries in Central and Eastern Europe who have been seeking reassurance from the U.S. since Russian President Vladimir Putin annexed Crimea; Mr. Putin himself, who will be listening for clues to the next U.S. moves; and Mr. Obama’s European counterparts, who don’t always share U.S. urgency concerning Ukraine’s current course. Vice President Joe Biden, Secretary of State John Kerry and Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel have all recently visited Warsaw and have stressed the durability of NATO’s Article 5 commitment, but many Poles and their neighbors view the Ukraine crisis as a direct threat to their national security–and worry about who would come to their aid if Mr. Putin sets his sights on NATO territory. Poland even requested that 10,000 U.S. combat troops be permanently stationed on its soil. (Neither NATO nor the United States has granted that request, which most NATO members believe would conflict with commitments the alliance made in the NATO-Russia Founding Act.
As President Obama works to reassure allies, with measures such as his announcement Tuesday of a $1 billion fund to bolster security in Europe, he should also be clear about the consequences if Mr. Putin continues to play a destabilizing role in eastern Ukraine. On the one hand, Mr. Obama will want to herald Ukraine’s recent elections as a sign that the country is moving forward. But he needs to acknowledge, without sounding too alarmist, that Russian actions in eastern Ukraine are fueling violence, while also not issuing warnings that his European counterparts won’t feel comfortable pursuing.
So far, the U.S. and European allies have largely managed to stay united even when officials have disagreed over measures against Russia. It is not clear how long that unity can be maintained, especially as elements on both sides of the Atlantic see Ukraine’s recent elections and the withdrawal of some Russian troops on Ukraine’s border as signs that the conflict is cooling. Mr. Obama needs to warn against complacency and remind Europeans about the importance of supporting the new government in Kiev while maintaining a credible threat of sanctions should Mr. Putin cross certain thresholds.
In his West Point address, Obama stressed the importance of U.S. leadership in international efforts regarding Ukraine. On Wednesday, Mr. Obama needs to repeat that theme in practice. His core messages must be that the U.S. is ready and willing to reassure its allies and support Ukraine’s new government but that it will not do so on its own. He should challenge his European counterparts to maintain transatlantic resolve and follow promises to the Ukrainian government and warnings to Mr. Putin with swift action, especially if the situation deteriorates. Source.
a manpad ghan? urgh... this is comical ali level idiocy:
But Major Gen. Oleksandr Rozmaznin denied that Ukraine had bombed the building and told Hromadske TV that separatists had aimed a shoulder-fired, heat-seeking, surface-to-air missile at a passing Ukrainian jet. The missile apparently zeroed in on an air-conditioning unit at the government building instead, causing the blast, he said.
if you actually look at that gif you can see a flame (which looks an awfully lot like two muzzle flashes) in the trees on the right side of the gif immediately followed by explosions.
sure looks like two misfires from two separate weapons of some kind on the ground in the trees that traveled ~100 feet to the street and exploded.
So bombs are getting dropped now? That's crazy. I couldn't imagine being the people walking down the street. My thoughts go out to the common people just trying to live through this stuff. No idea how this should turn out I just hope it gets more peaceful sooner than later.
I at first bought into that argument, but it's really hard for me to believe if I analyze the photo farther. It *clearly* looks like at least 4 parallel explosions moving from right to left (that is supported by the video of 5 or so missiles being fired by the jet). The flame seen before the explosions on the left is most probably the first missile hitting the ground. It doesn't produce visible smoke at first because the view is obscured by the trees (and trapping the smoke).
Also, if you watch the video frame by frame you can actually see the impact of the missile coming through the trees.
I don't know who in the Ukrainian army approved this attack, but he should be immediately removed and the Ukrainian government should own up to the attack.
you're right you can see that in the top right corner
rebels will happily fight in civilian areas and the ukrainian military isn't exactly stocked up with cool made in the USA precision weapons. unless they were going after pushilin or something there's no reason for a strike like that. no amount of airstrikes is going to dislodge the rebels from inside the cities anyway unless there are soldiers around to go after them too.
On June 04 2014 14:05 Xiphos wrote: Can someone give me some summary of events after the Donetsk's referendum?
Some of your posts here are way too articulated and prose-esque for me to dissect (a compliment).
Please and thank you.
- Russia (nor anyone else) didn't accept the Donetsk referendum. - Ukraine elected Poroshenko as the new President and everyone (including Russia) seems to have accepted it. - Poroshenko escalated the Ukrainian army's attack on the separatists. - Russia sent in Kadyrov's men* who took over from the local militias. - The fighting continues with the Ukrainian army relying on air superiority, but with more troops entering Ukraine from Russia.
*Kadyrov's men are obviously not for Putin to send anywhere. Read the discussion in this thread for a clearer picture of the course of events.
"- Russia sent in Kadyrov's men who took over from the local militias." is a stretch. that's more of a business arrangement rather then Putin ordering Kadyrov to attack/take over those eastern provinces. about the trucks with soldiers crossing the border from Russia, pragmatism calls that you let them through. they'll be fighting your enemies anyway ...
EPT![[image loading]](http://puu.sh/9bPYK/71e0ae4ece.gif)
![[image loading]](http://cdn.rt.com/files/news/27/e1/80/00/ukraine-bombs-lugansk-missiles.si.jpg)
